May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Grouse]

39 minutes ago, vogie said:

You are wrong, the word is dunderhead, just because the Scots pronounce different, it is still dunderhead, an abusive remark!

OK, I won't use it again...

 

I'm rather surprised that our military men are of such a delicate disposition. 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Lighten up man! I already ceased using the N word ( to avoid frightening the horses), which was a very mild term anyway. What term or collective noun would you suggest to describe people with strong views based on incorrect information and a lamentable grasp of history? Paltroons? "The intellectually challenged". I am not joking now. How can I express my true views? I don't really do PC; I'm from Yorkshire! I wish to have informed debate; I have absolutely no desire to insult anyone.

You can, or should be able to, a man of your superiour education by not using derogatory terminology. Why do you get the urge to insult people? With your intellect you should be able to communicate with your fellow members without showing disrespect. And as "coming from Yorkshire" what the blazes has that got to do with it, I'm from Yorkshire and I don't feel the need to be superiour.

[Grouse]

Just now, vogie said:

You can, or should be able to, a man of your superiour education by not using derogatory terminology. Why do you get the urge to insult people? With your intellect you should be able to communicate with your fellow members without showing disrespect. And as "coming from Yorkshire" what the blazes has that got to do with it, I'm from Yorkshire and I don't feel the need to be superiour.

Please can we get back to the discussion?

 

Do you think yesterday's local elections have any connection with the future general election?

 

I was hoping that Corbyn would take the opportunity to heroically fall on his sword

 

Obviously the Con Party has absorbed UKIP. Will that cause severe indigestion? What about One Nation Tories?

[teddog]

Just now, vogie said:

You can, or should be able to, a man of your superiour education by not using derogatory terminology. Why do you get the urge to insult people? With your intellect you should be able to communicate with your fellow members without showing disrespect. And as "coming from Yorkshire" what the blazes has that got to do with it, I'm from Yorkshire and I don't feel the need to be superiour.

 

A good education is never wasted, excepting when residing in the <deleted> of the world.

 

   Free of the EU  that is the end game,  anything else afterward

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Please can we get back to the discussion?

 

Do you think yesterday's local elections have any connection with the future general election?

 

I was hoping that Corbyn would take the opportunity to heroically fall on his sword

 

Obviously the Con Party has absorbed UKIP. Will that cause severe indigestion? What about One Nation Tories?

As Jonathan Pie said, Jeremy Vine might as well get a paint brush and paint the whole political map blue. 

 

A great success for the Tories, just what was needed, maybe Mrs May will be a lot stronger when she meets and negotiates with the EU mafia, and judging by J C Junckers snide remarks, he is not a force to be reckoned with, infact doing his best to derail the talks already. Labour and the LibDems are running around like spoilt children today. We all know how JC gained his position, but for the life in me I just don't understand how TF got the job.

Ref Corbyn, he will never go, you will need a set of tyre levers to remove him, what is your idea of Labour starting a reformed party and rid themselves of the unions. I know how the Labour party started with imput from the unions, but surely they have become a great millstone around Labours neck.

And of of course it will be a one nation party, but hey, lets not blame that on the Torys, if the other partys cannot get their act together, what are they supposed to do? I'm sure normal sevice will be resumed after brexit and the partys will learn from their mistakes, ha.

Yes the Torys have swallowed UKIP, but if the Torys don't give us what we want, it will only take one mighty big burp to get them on the scene again.

And 100billion bill payable to the EU Diane Abbott has said it will cost everyone in the UK £1 (HIGNFY)

[Naam]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

You are absolutely correct! I contend that many Brexiteers just don't have the facts; they just have disinformation spread by demagogues.

the utmost ridiculous claims made in this forum originate not from demagogues but are just made up. and when faced with facts which spoil wet dreams these facts are doubted and rejected. for me, being neither a Brexiteer nor a Bremainer but a cosmopolitan realist, i study the the individual comments with interest and some sort of amusement. 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

As Jonathan Pie said, Jeremy Vine might as well get a paint brush and paint the whole political map blue. 

 

A great success for the Tories, just what was needed, maybe Mrs May will be a lot stronger when she meets and negotiates with the EU mafia, and judging by J C Junckers snide remarks, he is not a force to be reckoned with, infact doing his best to derail the talks already. Labour and the LibDems are running around like spoilt children today. We all know how JC gained his position, but for the life in me I just don't understand how TF got the job.

Ref Corbyn, he will never go, you will need a set of tyre levers to remove him, what is your idea of Labour starting a reformed party and rid themselves of the unions. I know how the Labour party started with imput from the unions, but surely they have become a great millstone around Labours neck.

And of of course it will be a one nation party, but hey, lets not blame that on the Torys, if the other partys cannot get their act together, what are they supposed to do? I'm sure normal sevice will be resumed after brexit and the partys will learn from their mistakes, ha.

Yes the Torys have swallowed UKIP, but if the Torys don't give us what we want, it will only take one mighty big burp to get them on the scene again.

And 100billion bill payable to the EU Diane Abbott has said it will cost everyone in the UK £1 (HIGNFY)

I think many of us were pro Labour as callow youths but grew out of it. To my shame, I was pro Thatcher during the 80s ( red braces, Porsche, black pin stripe seats, Hampshire residence). I did not understand what was happening at the time. Now, with the benefit of global experience, I take a more balanced, measured view. I can tell you that Scandinavia was easily the best place to live in terms of social justice and general happiness.

 

Now, to your points: Union support for political parties is an anachronism. We need unions, strong unions, on the board, but out of politics. I abhor Trotskyism and want to see the end of all the Miltant Tendancy and it's siblings. Corbyn SHOULD use yesterday's defeat as an excuse to fall on his sword with grace. That awful Abbott woman should just go, I can't bear her voice....

 

Lib Dem policies are appealing to me. I agree with most of their stuff but I'm VERY pro nuclear. I'd vote for Vince Cable for President!

 

Good to see UKIP gone. They embarrassed me!

 

So, the Tories....

 

I was always pro the wets. Anyone remember Carrington? Pym? Howe? Hurd?,Jim Prior? Whitelaw? These were true One Nation Tories as Clarke is now. (worth looking up One Nation Tories)

 

I truly despise the red in tooth and claw types - one needs to really read the history of the "Bastards" (to quote Major).

 

I fear that the right wing will procure a "clean Brexit", justified by EU intransigence. This will exacerbate UK inequality and general dissatisfaction. I have a residual hope that TM is honourable and will use a huge majority wisely. But I'm worried.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Grouse

[JAG]

You are absolutely correct! I contend that many Brexiteers just don't have the facts; they just have disinformation spread by demagogues.
 
I used to describe these types with an N word but this distracted from the points I raised. Maybe dunderheeds is better?

You can't help yourself can you?

The "N" word was offensive, to now refer to those with whom you disagree as "dunderheads" is just as offensive.

Let's take the gloves off shall we "grouse". You can run whining to the mods if you want. Your habitual use of offensive silly little names for those who hold differing views to yourself does nothing to make your posts more pertinent, it just reveals how smug and arrogant you are.

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, JAG said:

You can't help yourself can you?

The "N" word was offensive, to now refer to those with whom you disagree as "dunderheads" is just as offensive.

Let's take the gloves off shall we "grouse". You can run whining to the mods if you want. Your habitual use of offensive silly little names for those who hold differing views to yourself does nothing to make your posts more pertinent, it just reveals how smug and arrogant you are.

You have this all wrong.

 

I am not smug; arrogant may be.

 

We find ourselves (The British) in a precarious situation.

 

I am interested in debating and discussing generally what's happening.

 

I find it intensely annoying when people state strong views based on incorrect assumptions. The situation is too serious for facile comments.

 

I have never insulted anyone directly.

 

Now, to get back to the topic at hand.....

[billd766]

3 hours ago, pitrevie said:

"he is incabable of civil debate " That is so funny coming from you.

 

I put him on my ignore list last year simply because I was fed up with being insulted at every post because I chose to vote UKIP. Because I did not agree with every word that he wrote (I was not the only one) he simply shouted down and insulted everybody who did not agree with him.

 

I might have taken more notice of his posts if he wrote coherently and stopped being personal but he didn't so I ignore him. The only time I may read his posts is if someone quotes him.

 

I have only pity and contempt for him but I cannot be bothered any longer to respond to his posts, most of which are utter drivel now.

[vogie]

4 hours ago, Naam said:

the utmost ridiculous claims made in this forum originate not from demagogues but are just made up. and when faced with facts which spoil wet dreams these facts are doubted and rejected. for me, being neither a Brexiteer nor a Bremainer but a cosmopolitan realist, i study the the individual comments with interest and some sort of amusement. 

You are neither a Brexiteer nor a Bremainer but a cosmopolitan realist, a bit of a mouthfull, do you mind if we just call you a 'mopist'?

[Flustered]

5 hours ago, Naam said:

being neither a Brexiteer nor a Bremainer but a cosmopolitan realist

Which would explain why you feel a Brussels "one size fits all" Europe is the way forward and then a one size fits all global society...........

 

I seem to remember various dictators in history having the same ideas. How lucky Europe was that Britain was different.

[AlexRich]

18 hours ago, shanesox said:

2030 ? Haha ! Must be an EU Bureaucrat fantasy with fantasy numbers! To say from post WW2 until 1972 was slow economic growth and then "magic" joining EEC saved UK economy is more "fantasy"

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

It's a fact that seems to fall on the deaf ears of the Brexiteers ... the UK has done well within the EU, it was doing crap outside it before joining. 

[AlexRich]

8 hours ago, Grouse said:

You are absolutely correct! I contend that many Brexiteers just don't have the facts; they just have disinformation spread by demagogues.

 

I used to describe these types with an N word but this distracted from the points I raised. Maybe dunderheeds is better?

 

Dunderheeds, fuds and dobbers! Nothing like a bit of colloquial Scots to liven up a discussion.

[Khun Han]

59 minutes ago, Flustered said:

6 hours ago, Naam said:

being neither a Brexiteer nor a Bremainer but a cosmopolitan realist

Which would explain why you feel a Brussels "one size fits all" Europe is the way forward and then a one size fits all global society...........

 

I seem to remember various dictators in history having the same ideas. How lucky Europe was that Britain was different.

 

'One Size Fits All' should be the motto of Europhiles and globalists. They are ahead of their time, to say the least.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Khun Han

[Naam]

6 hours ago, Flustered said:

11 hours ago, Naam said:

being neither a Brexiteer nor a Bremainer but a cosmopolitan realist

Which would explain why you feel a Brussels "one size fits all" Europe is the way forward and then a one size fits all global society...........

 

I seem to remember various dictators in history having the same ideas. How lucky Europe was that Britain was different.

being a cosmopolitan i am far from feeling what you insinuated. in fact i am happy that i don't participate financing the büllshyte that quite often is concocted in Brussels. having said so, i feel that the basic idea of a United Europe is excellent. i draw parallels looking at the U.S. of A. where it took a century and a devastating civil war to reach unity. in my view Great Britain is missing the chance to be a big player within the EU albeit by far not playing the part it was used to for a few centuries. Brits seem to have difficulties to realise that the British Empire is a thing of the past, that Brittania does not rule the seas anymore and that it's over being addressed in various parts of the world as Sahib, Bwana or N'kosi.

 

all afore-said as usual in my[not so]humble opinion  

[AlexRich]

2 minutes ago, Naam said:

being a cosmopolitan i am far from feeling what you insinuated. in fact i am happy that i don't participate financing the büllshyte that quite often is concocted in Brussels. having said so, i feel that the basic idea of a United Europe is excellent. i draw parallels looking at the U.S. of A. where it took a century and a devastating civil war to reach unity. in my view Great Britain is missing the chance to be a big player within the EU albeit by far not playing the part it was used to for a few centuries. Brits seem to have difficulties to realise that the British Empire is a thing of the past, that Brittania does not rule the seas anymore and that it's over being addressed in various parts of the world as Sahib, Bwana or N'kosi.

 

all afore-said as usual in my[not so]humble opinion  

 

Strangely enough, some Brexiteers think we're going back to that ... I'm just waiting for news from Boris that we're setting up the East India Company again ... and sending the fleet into Boston harbour ... for (Little) England and St George!

[Naam]

7 hours ago, vogie said:

11 hours ago, Naam said:

the utmost ridiculous claims made in this forum originate not from demagogues but are just made up. and when faced with facts which spoil wet dreams these facts are doubted and rejected. for me, being neither a Brexiteer nor a Bremainer but a cosmopolitan realist, i study the the individual comments with interest and some sort of amusement. 

You are neither a Brexiteer nor a Bremainer but a cosmopolitan realist, a bit of a mouthfull, do you mind if we just call you a 'mopist'?

i don't mind at all even though i have no idea what that expression means. since half a century i am also quite used being fired upon by *deleted* boys. but this is the first time that the pluralis maiestatis was used

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, teddog said:

A good education is never wasted, excepting when residing in the <deleted> of the world.

 

   Free of the EU  that is the end game,  anything else afterward

A delusional concept. The UK will never be 'Free of the EU'.

[AlexRich]

51 minutes ago, sandyf said:

A delusional concept. The UK will never be 'Free of the EU'.

 

Well ... only once the £85 bn is paid!

 

 

[nontabury]

17 hours ago, vogie said:

You are wrong, the word is dunderhead, just because the Scots pronounce different, it is still dunderhead, an abusive remark!

Correct,it is not a Scottish word. And  certainly not because some Scottish person proclaims it to be so. Alexander Bells claim to have invented the telephone comes to mind.

[nontabury]

16 hours ago, vogie said:

You can, or should be able to, a man of your superiour education by not using derogatory terminology. Why do you get the urge to insult people? With your intellect you should be able to communicate with your fellow members without showing disrespect. And as "coming from Yorkshire" what the blazes has that got to do with it, I'm from Yorkshire and I don't feel the need to be superiour.

Again I agree with you, then again I'm a 100%  true and proud Yorkshireman.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2017 by nontabury

[nauseus]

9 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

It's a fact that seems to fall on the deaf ears of the Brexiteers ... the UK has done well within the EU, it was doing crap outside it before joining. 

 

It is true that the UK was in a sorry state, economically, in the early 1970's. But "crap" before joining must be a relative term. Please remember that the UK joined something called the EEC and not the EU! One of the E's represented the word "Economic" and there was no U (for Union) included at the time. 

 

Despite losing WW2, Germany was massively assisted, by the west, with its rebuilding and modernization via the Marshall Plan. So Germany was rebuilding apace while the Britain was in huge debt, with low growth after the war. Traditionally after a war, a victor like the UK would have previously benefited, at least financially, after winning, but the new trend of benevolence reversed that trend. So, after German industry was bombed to bits it was all replaced with the newest and latest stuff, methods, techniques with new plant and equipment.

 

After reunification, the (West) German government spent trillions to stitch the country back together again. Now, Germany is spending huge amounts to save the Euro and the European Union. This will ultimately reduce Germany's economic power so much that it may soon be unable to financially to prop up the EU with bailouts, if those of significant size become necessary. The Italian economy is ten times the size of the Greek one! Just saying.

 

But the above comment will probably fall on deaf remainears! 

[AlexRich]

20 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

It is true that the UK was in a sorry state, economically, in the early 1970's. But "crap" before joining must be a relative term. Please remember that the UK joined something called the EEC and not the EU! One of the E's represented the word "Economic" and there was no U (for Union) included at the time. 

 

Despite losing WW2, Germany was massively assisted, by the west, with its rebuilding and modernization via the Marshall Plan. So Germany was rebuilding apace while the Britain was in huge debt, with low growth after the war. Traditionally after a war, a victor like the UK would have previously benefited, at least financially, after winning, but the new trend of benevolence reversed that trend. So, after German industry was bombed to bits it was all replaced with the newest and latest stuff, methods, techniques with new plant and equipment.

 

After reunification, the (West) German government spent trillions to stitch the country back together again. Now, Germany is spending huge amounts to save the Euro and the European Union. This will ultimately reduce Germany's economic power so much that it may soon be unable to financially to prop up the EU with bailouts, if those of significant size become necessary. The Italian economy is ten times the size of the Greek one! Just saying.

 

But the above comment will probably fall on deaf remainears! 

 

The reason for not "punishing" the Germans relates to the dumb decision to impose excessive reparations on the Germans after the First World War, a move condemned quite correctly by Keynes ... a move that many historians believe paved the way for Hitler and the next War. My point is that since joining the EEC the UK has grown even faster than Germany; compare that to it's dismal performance beforehand. The point being that we have done rather well in the EU ... and all this talk of imminent implosion of Italy, etc is more wishful thinking than reality ... there will no doubt be some kind of bailout, and Germany will be a big contributor ... the issue is distribution, not whether they have it or not. 

 

[Grouse]

36 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

It is true that the UK was in a sorry state, economically, in the early 1970's. But "crap" before joining must be a relative term. Please remember that the UK joined something called the EEC and not the EU! One of the E's represented the word "Economic" and there was no U (for Union) included at the time. 

 

Despite losing WW2, Germany was massively assisted, by the west, with its rebuilding and modernization via the Marshall Plan. So Germany was rebuilding apace while the Britain was in huge debt, with low growth after the war. Traditionally after a war, a victor like the UK would have previously benefited, at least financially, after winning, but the new trend of benevolence reversed that trend. So, after German industry was bombed to bits it was all replaced with the newest and latest stuff, methods, techniques with new plant and equipment.

 

After reunification, the (West) German government spent trillions to stitch the country back together again. Now, Germany is spending huge amounts to save the Euro and the European Union. This will ultimately reduce Germany's economic power so much that it may soon be unable to financially to prop up the EU with bailouts, if those of significant size become necessary. The Italian economy is ten times the size of the Greek one! Just saying.

 

But the above comment will probably fall on deaf remainears! 

I'm not deaf but I CAN read

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

 

See how much the U.K. Received compared to all other beneficiaries!

 

As for reparations, look at Versailles after WW1. That was a good idea wasn't it?

 

It's ALWAYS somebody else's fault, isn't it! Usually the Hun, the Krauts, or the Bosch ?

 

(BTW, "cost" of reunification to date is about 4 months German GDP. Pretty good investment? What does the UK invest in?)

Edited May 7, 2017 by Grouse

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The reason for not "punishing" the Germans relates to the dumb decision to impose excessive reparations on the Germans after the First World War, a move condemned quite correctly by Keynes ... a move that many historians believe paved the way for Hitler and the next War. My point is that since joining the EEC the UK has grown even faster than Germany; compare that to it's dismal performance beforehand. The point being that we have done rather well in the EU ... and all this talk of imminent implosion of Italy, etc is more wishful thinking than reality ... there will no doubt be some kind of bailout, and Germany will be a big contributor ... the issue is distribution, not whether they have it or not. 

 

The reason for not "punishing" the Germans is not really relevant here. And I am not wishing for any implosions!

 

[nauseus]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I'm not deaf but I CAN read

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

 

See how much the U.K. Received compared to all other beneficiaries!

 

As for reparations, look at Versailles after WW1. That was a good idea wasn't it?

 

It's ALWAYS somebody else's fault, isn't it! Usually the Hun, the Krauts, or the Bosch ?

Not blaming anyone here, Grouse, as you seem to think I am! 

[Grouse]

And another thing. While we await the result of the French presidential elections, let's look at pensions.

 

Now I know that those who have been supported by the tax payer (teachers, police, military, heath workers etc) have reasonable pensions, many others do not

 

https://www.compareyourcountry.org/pensions

 

Why do Europeans have substantially more generous pensions than the U.K.? 

 

Is it the fault of the EU or our own fault?

 

Be careful what you wish for Brexiteers! ?

[Grouse]

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The reason for not "punishing" the Germans is not really relevant here. And I am not wishing for any implosions!

 

You made the point that the "victor didn't get the spoils". Are you retracting that?

[Grouse]

18 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Not blaming anyone here, Grouse, as you seem to think I am! 

You certainly imply in your post that following the war, the Germans benefitted from the Marshall plan where as we did not. As I posted, we received far more than the Germans.

 

As far as having to repay America is that the fault of the EU? Let's put it down to the "special relationship"!