May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[AlexRich]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

There is no dispute? Indications? A fact of life! Then no dispute again! 

 

The final effects on the UK after Brexit are not known yet and it will be years before anyone will be able to gauge these. But Sandy has a crystal ball - the trouble is that its really one of those old Christmas snow globes with cloudy plastic snow that falls down after shaking, as the EU is being shaken now. If you want to talk about "worse off", talk to the poor Greeks!  

 

Greeks are not poor because of the EU, they are poor because their government cheated their way onto a single currency that they were not qualified to join, and used that relatively stronger EU currency to go on a debt binge ... add to that a reluctance to enforce tax rules and a corrupt political culture and it only takes a financial crisis to create the chaos that is now Greece. 

 

The UK, on the other hand, retained its own currency, raised and collected its own taxes, and prospered within the single market, whatever its faults. But we prefer the good old days when we were much poorer ... "roll out the barrel"!

 

[beautifulthailand99]

25 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Greeks are not poor because of the EU, they are poor because their government cheated their way onto a single currency that they were not qualified to join, and used that relatively stronger EU currency to go on a debt binge ... add to that a reluctance to enforce tax rules and a corrupt political culture and it only takes a financial crisis to create the chaos that is now Greece. 

 

The UK, on the other hand, retained its own currency, raised and collected its own taxes, and prospered within the single market, whatever its faults. But we prefer the good old days when we were much poorer ... "roll out the barrel"!

 

And ain't that the truth. Sadly we live in a post-truth world - "I feel it so it must be true". Well the Brexit headbangers won the arguement time to leave the fray and build your own lifeboats.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, AlexRich said:

Thank goodness we'll have that "imaginary" extra £350 million per week to spend on the NHS, it looks as if we might need it to fund the "health tourism" of the 190,000 UK expat pensioners who currently live abroad. 

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-40095822

I don't think that figure is quite right, I think they mean the EU rather than abroad.

 

Staudenmayer was referring to the fact that around 560,000 UK pensioners live in countries where their basic state pension is frozen – they don’t get the annual increases that people who move to EU countries and certain other places .

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/jul/02/pound-fall-british-pensioners-living-overseas-brexit-vote

 

The whole concept of returning expats is something the government will ignore at their peril

It is estimated that 1.3 million UK citizens live in the EU and around 3 million worldwide. They could stop all non UK citizens from entering the UK but if 10% of the global expats were to return to the UK, net migration would rise.

If a significant number were to come back then the £350 million would be no more than petty cash. Not only the NHS, any large numbers of pensioners from outside the EU and the DWP will start squealing.

[metisdead]

Posts containing inflammatory comments directed at another poster have been removed, discuss the topic, not other posters. 

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, AlexRich said:

Thank goodness we'll have that "imaginary" extra £350 million per week to spend on the NHS, it looks as if we might need it to fund the "health tourism" of the 190,000 UK expat pensioners who currently live abroad. 

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-40095822

This other article does say the 190K are those in the EU.

 

Britain currently spends around £500m on a scheme that allows some 190,000 pensioners to access free or reduced-cost medical treatment in EU countries

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-brexit-care-retired-expats-double-1bn-billion-500m-nuffield-trust-a7763851.html

 

This readers comment from that article highlights another aspect.

 

"I am one of those many pensioners referred to in this article. They have only covered half of it. I am more fortunate than most in that I have a holiday home in the UK.  If we all put our houses on the market at the same time they would be difficult to sell and in any case they would be unlikely to sell for enough to buy anywhere in the  UK so many would be demanding social housing and with that housing benefit. Some have already gone back due to the falling pound. Because they live abroad they cannot claim a pension top up. By going back they can claim which more than covers the higher cost of living in the UK. "

[jpinx]

15 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

 

I am afraid that you are rather correct re Brexiteer laziness in checking their own assertions, but unfortunately that's how it is. However, it is worth initially saying that London is the world centre for Foreign Exchange. To what degree this will be affected by Brexit still remains to be seen. As for use of currencies GBP is neither second or third after USD. First is USD, second is EUR and third JPY. GBP is fourth most traded currency with 13%

Checking for a blue moon here -- I find myself agreeing with you! :)   A lot of the hype about keeping the City is just that -- prestige and 'face', but the supporting infrastructure has it's own large economy.  Take the city out and thousands of other people will be badly affected.  

 

As for checking facts in this and other forums, the sources of the "facts" are as guilty of bias as are the posters.  There is not a word written that is not paid for by someone with an agenda. 

[jpinx]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

Greeks are not poor because of the EU, they are poor because their government cheated their way onto a single currency that they were not qualified to join, and used that relatively stronger EU currency to go on a debt binge ... add to that a reluctance to enforce tax rules and a corrupt political culture and it only takes a financial crisis to create the chaos that is now Greece. 

 

The UK, on the other hand, retained its own currency, raised and collected its own taxes, and prospered within the single market, whatever its faults. But we prefer the good old days when we were much poorer ... "roll out the barrel"!

 

With the benefit of hindsight it is clear that the EU should have been better thought out than it actually was.  Brexit has highlighted many flaws in the structure, the currency, joining and leaving requirements, etc, etc.  If the EU had sat down and shown serious intent to reform these fundamentals, UK would probably not be leaving.  This points to the personal attitudes of the politicians and beaurocrats as being the driving force behind EU expansion-ism, not the "will of the people".

[mommysboy]

51 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Checking for a blue moon here -- I find myself agreeing with you! :)   A lot of the hype about keeping the City is just that -- prestige and 'face', but the supporting infrastructure has it's own large economy.  Take the city out and thousands of other people will be badly affected.  

 

As for checking facts in this and other forums, the sources of the "facts" are as guilty of bias as are the posters.  There is not a word written that is not paid for by someone with an agenda. 

I think this is one of the rare situations where the EU needs this British giant more than the other way around.

[AlexRich]

44 minutes ago, jpinx said:

With the benefit of hindsight it is clear that the EU should have been better thought out than it actually was.  Brexit has highlighted many flaws in the structure, the currency, joining and leaving requirements, etc, etc.  If the EU had sat down and shown serious intent to reform these fundamentals, UK would probably not be leaving.  This points to the personal attitudes of the politicians and beaurocrats as being the driving force behind EU expansion-ism, not the "will of the people".

 

I loathe the expression "will of the people" ... it refers to about 30% of the population, and quite frankly is a nonsense description of a vote where 48% opposed the decision and those that voted for it were predominantly anti-immigration protesters. I'd liken the vote to the X Factor or Britain's Got Talent ... two years later no one can remember who the winner was or why anyone voted for them. 

[Caps]

13 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

I loathe the expression "will of the people" ... it refers to about 30% of the population, and quite frankly is a nonsense description of a vote where 48% opposed the decision and those that voted for it were predominantly anti-immigration protesters. I'd liken the vote to the X Factor or Britain's Got Talent ... two years later no one can remember who the winner was or why anyone voted for them. 

Well maybe the other 70% should of got of their fat @rse and voted.  I am not against immigration, but I am against being told how many I have to have, I am against having an EU military, I am against having EU Tax, I am against bailing out other countries because of one failing or another, I am against the so called democratically elected drunken halfwits telling us what to do,  I am against being told to pay millions of GBP in to this and that etc etc

I actually think immigration is good for the country.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Caps

[jpinx]

17 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

I loathe the expression "will of the people" ... it refers to about 30% of the population, and quite frankly is a nonsense description of a vote where 48% opposed the decision and those that voted for it were predominantly anti-immigration protesters. I'd liken the vote to the X Factor or Britain's Got Talent ... two years later no one can remember who the winner was or why anyone voted for them. 

30%?  How do you guess-timate that?  The turnout for the referendum was 72%. 

 

Perhaps you'd prefer a dictatorship ?  Is there a leader waiting in the wings?

[beautifulthailand99]

I hope all these Brexiteers concerned about a 'free and bold future' for their native land will be returning home to help with the great experiment and great leap forward rather than just tapping away in their air-conditioned condos sipping their Changs. I won't be holding my breath anytime soon.

[Caps]

1 minute ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

I hope all these Brexiteers concerned about a 'free and bold future' for their native land will be returning home to help with the great experiment and great leap forward rather than just tapping away in their air-conditioned condos sipping their Changs. I won't be holding my breath anytime soon.

Ummmm an air-conditioned condo and a Chang would be great right now, far better than 46 degrees c and a sand storm  

[AlexRich]

23 minutes ago, Caps said:

Well maybe the other 70% should of got of their fat @rse and voted.  I am not against immigration, but I am against being told how many I have to have, I am against having an EU military, I am against having EU Tax, I am against bailing out other countries because of one failing or another, I am against the so called democratically elected drunken halfwits telling us what to do,  I am against being told to pay millions of GBP in to this and that etc etc

I actually think immigration is good for the country.

I'm not for most of that either ... but we don't have an EU military, we don't bail out others, we decide our own taxes ... the only thing we agree to is free movement, and that works both ways. Like you, I think immigration has been beneficial to a country where the population is both ageing and living longer ... the fresh blood from the EU generates tax revenues to fund our future needs. 

 

I think people voted against things they feared ... like Turkey immigration ... that aren't real.

[Grouse]

22 minutes ago, jpinx said:

30%?  How do you guess-timate that?  The turnout for the referendum was 72%. 

 

Perhaps you'd prefer a dictatorship ?  Is there a leader waiting in the wings?

36% good enough?

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

I'm not for most of that either ... but we don't have an EU military, we don't bail out others, we decide our own taxes ... the only thing we agree to is free movement, and that works both ways. Like you, I think immigration has been beneficial to a country where the population is both ageing and living longer ... the fresh blood from the EU generates tax revenues to fund our future needs. 

 

I think people voted against things they feared ... like Turkey immigration ... that aren't real.

I think Caps has just been buried in a sand storm! Quick, anyone got a long distance straw?

[Caps]

Just now, AlexRich said:

I'm not for most of that either ... but we don't have an EU military, we don't bail out others, we decide our own taxes ... the only thing we agree to is free movement, and that works both ways. Like you, I think immigration has been beneficial to a country where the population is both ageing and living longer ... the fresh blood from the EU generates tax revenues to fund our future needs. 

 

I think people voted against things they feared ... like Turkey immigration ... that aren't real.

Yes I agree that we don't have those things yet.  But I do believe they are coming, watch this space once we have gone, The UK has already said it will veto the Military because we have NATO and I think that was last year or the year before.   I don't really like Free movement and prefer the border checks for security although Visa Free Travel with checks i think is a better option.  I thought we were bailing out Greece?   Possibly Italy...I could be wrong

[Caps]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

I think Caps has just been buried in a sand storm! Quick, anyone got a long distance straw?

That would be nice :)

[AlexRich]

22 minutes ago, jpinx said:

30%?  How do you guess-timate that?  The turnout for the referendum was 72%. 

 

Perhaps you'd prefer a dictatorship ?  Is there a leader waiting in the wings?

We have a population of over 60 million, with 17 m voting to be poorer ... so less than 30% decided everyone's fate for them, many of whom will not have to live with the consequences ... nice pensions and mortgage free houses. Funny how their voting intentions change when "dementia tax" and "fuel payments" go on the agenda ... of course it's easy to vote for something that doesn't affect you. 

 

And the way May is acting it looks as if we already have a dictator. Pushing through a suicdial hard Brexit and ridiculous immigration targets to garner the votes of the imbeciles who seem to believe they can get back to their imaginary version of 1950's England ... a period when the populace were poorer. Jerusalem! 

[AlexRich]

4 minutes ago, Caps said:

Yes I agree that we don't have those things yet.  But I do believe they are coming, watch this space once we have gone, The UK has already said it will veto the Military because we have NATO and I think that was last year or the year before.   I don't really like Free movement and prefer the border checks for security although Visa Free Travel with checks i think is a better option.  I thought we were bailing out Greece?   Possibly Italy...I could be wrong

I think the EU bloc will eventually have to allow Italy to inject funds into its banks and either cut Greece loose or cut their debt levels, as they can never recover with the debt burden they have. As we are not in the EU currency bloc we are not on the hook, but may be asked to help out via the IMF, along with the other members. As for an EU military, the treacherous Donald Trump is in cahoots with Putin to weaken NATO, and as a consequence we might well see the EU strengthen and coordinate it's military.

[Caps]

Just now, AlexRich said:

I think the EU bloc will eventually have to allow Italy to inject funds into its banks and either cut Greece loose or cut their debt levels, as they can never recover with the debt burden they have. As we are not in the EU currency bloc we are not on the hook, but may be asked to help out via the IMF, along with the other members. As for an EU military, the treacherous Donald Trump is in cahoots with Putin to weaken NATO, and as a consequence we might well see the EU strengthen and coordinate it's military.

Ah right, I thought some of our EU contributions were being used for the Bailing out....i stand corrected

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

We have a population of over 60 million, with 17 m voting to be poorer ... so less than 30% decided everyone's fate for them, many of whom will not have to live with the consequences ... nice pensions and mortgage free houses. Funny how their voting intentions change when "dementia tax" and "fuel payments" go on the agenda ... of course it's easy to vote for something that doesn't affect you. 

 

And the way May is acting it looks as if we already have a dictator. Pushing through a suicdial hard Brexit and ridiculous immigration targets to garner the votes of the imbeciles who seem to believe they can get back to their imaginary version of 1950's England ... a period when the populace were poorer. Jerusalem! 

Are you including people unelegible to vote in your stats?

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Are you including people unelegible to vote in your stats?

Yes, of course. In fact I would argue that those folk and the one's yet to be born are the most important of the lot as they will bear the burden of Brexit. They will grow up in a country with a growing old population who will require their tax revenues to fund future pensions and healthcare costs ... whilst at the same time facing jobs disappearing due to robotics and a slower growing population of workers, as a consequence of reduced immigration and being too poor to afford children. But at least they won't have to put up with the odd Romany gypsy from Eastern Europe ... so that kind of evens things up?

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, jpinx said:

Checking for a blue moon here -- I find myself agreeing with you! :)   A lot of the hype about keeping the City is just that -- prestige and 'face', but the supporting infrastructure has it's own large economy.  Take the city out and thousands of other people will be badly affected.  

 

As for checking facts in this and other forums, the sources of the "facts" are as guilty of bias as are the posters.  There is not a word written that is not paid for by someone with an agenda. 

The blue moon was nice but the rest of the comment turned out to be made of green cheese.

[SheungWan]

18 hours ago, Flustered said:

I genuinely feel sorry for Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott.

 

They are doing the best they can and should be expected to be a bit confused at times. They are not "top drawer" politicians and have been thrust into the limelight through circumstance.

 

It's a shame, as Jeremy Corbyn is at least a Socialist which is more than Blair ever was. Blair was a Blair and nothing more. He had no party policies bar lining his own pocket and staying in power as long as he could.

 

With Jeremy Corbyn, it's a case of he is a wysiwyg. Plain and simple.

With Diane Abbott, it's the Last Chance Saloon before the HoL.

 

TM is the only one capable of taking us out of the EU.

Don't feel sorry for those two. They are both evasive and not to be trusted re their agenda. As for Jeremy Corbyn supposedly being a socialist well that's a moveable feast if ever there was one. As for Brexit, Corbyn is about the most slippery party leader of the lot. No way is he wysiwyg. Naive to even suggest it but there are many pushing the line that he stands for some form of purity. No sale.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Greeks are not poor because of the EU, they are poor because their government cheated their way onto a single currency that they were not qualified to join, and used that relatively stronger EU currency to go on a debt binge ... add to that a reluctance to enforce tax rules and a corrupt political culture and it only takes a financial crisis to create the chaos that is now Greece. 

 

The UK, on the other hand, retained its own currency, raised and collected its own taxes, and prospered within the single market, whatever its faults. But we prefer the good old days when we were much poorer ... "roll out the barrel"!

 

If the Greeks cheated their way in, then that confirms that the EU is at least as corrupt...but we all know that now don't we?

Edited May 31, 2017 by nauseus
wording

[SheungWan]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If the Greeks cheated their way in, then that confirms that the EU is at least as corrupt...but we all know that now don't we?

A rather limp effort at ipso facto.

[nauseus]

5 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

A rather limp effort at ipso facto.

Not as limp as a wet piece of straw.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

I loathe the expression "will of the people" ... it refers to about 30% of the population, and quite frankly is a nonsense description of a vote where 48% opposed the decision and those that voted for it were predominantly anti-immigration protesters. I'd liken the vote to the X Factor or Britain's Got Talent ... two years later no one can remember who the winner was or why anyone voted for them. 

You miss jpinx's point completely. No surprise there, though.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Caps said:

Yes I agree that we don't have those things yet.  But I do believe they are coming, watch this space once we have gone, The UK has already said it will veto the Military because we have NATO and I think that was last year or the year before.   I don't really like Free movement and prefer the border checks for security although Visa Free Travel with checks i think is a better option.  I thought we were bailing out Greece?   Possibly Italy...I could be wrong

And you could be right too. Probably why Junker wants to screw the UK out of 100 billion Euros. But I'm sure that Italy and Greece would get benefit after the EU pension coffers had been topped up!