May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Orac said:

 

 

Could be because, with the disruption being caused by Brexit, it would be foolish to add more confusion at the present time with one clock already ticking.

It would be like triggering a two year time limit and then deciding to waste a significant part of it by calling an election and I don’t think the Scots would be that stupid.




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

Personally I prefer to pull the plaster off in one go, none of this slow, lingering pain.

That said, it now transpires that the Times figures were based on only 145 people polled north of the border - game on!

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

Personally I prefer to pull the plaster off in one go, none of this slow, lingering pain.

That said, it now transpires that the Times figures were based on only 145 people polled north of the border - game on!

Going back to brexit, I'm inclined to agree.

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Doubt that as I've turned from 'unsure' into 'just leave' as a result of the eu's games....

I was being flippant. But more seriously, yes there are games being played but my sense is that with every passing day the realities of what we're trying to do here is simply not good but we may not find out for sure if that is true or not unless we try it. My goodness is that really the sort of gamble we want to take and should we really be gambling with such an important issue.

[RuamRudy]

28 minutes ago, Steve Mepham said:

Carillion have been bottom lining their prices for years, making losses on some contracts just to get them.

 

Directors, Shadow Directors, Non Executive Directors, Consultants and Shareholders have been feeding on this Company for Years, and awful lot of those people are current MP'S Lords ex MP'S and their Families. Chumocracy has never had it so good.

Serco is another Tory darling of a company with hundreds of public contracts and a jacket on a very shoogly nail.

 

Serco CEO is Robert Soames, ex-Eton, ex-Bullingdon Club, grandson of Churchill and brother of MP Nicholas Soames, who, if memory serves me correctly, sold his grandfather's papers to the nation to stave off bankruptcy (the point being that they actually belonged to the nation already), which would have toppled John Major's government as bankrupts are inelligible to sit in the house of commons.

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

I was being flippant. But more seriously, yes there are games being played but my sense is that with every passing day the realities of what we're trying to do here is simply not good but we may not find out for sure if that is true or not unless we try it. My goodness is that really the sort of gamble we want to take and should we really be gambling with such an important issue.

The problem is that pretty much the same 'issue' was presented to the electorate before the referendum (with an overload of media and political spin ensuring armageddon in the event of a leave vote!).

 

Few trust politicians or media outlets nowadays - although obviously a few will automatically agree with anything spouted that supports their point of view...

[aright]

On ‎15‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 4:54 PM, RuamRudy said:

The big difference between the Scottish government and Westminster, of course, is that the former have actually carried out an assessment of the extent of the harm that Brexit is going to do to the economy. 

 

On ‎15‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 2:29 PM, billd766 said:

 

quote "Scotland's economy could be £12.7bn a year worse off under a so-called hard Brexit, according to analysis by the Scottish government."

 

And the most important words in that statement are "could be".

 

Not will be. not definitely or anything else, simply "could be".

 

It "could be" more, it "could be" less, it could be nothing at all. Nobody has any real idea yet but Nicola Sturgeon, who has been very quiet lately actually said that there were 3 options so she gave the worst.

 

More scaremongering and disinformation from her government once again in yet another attempt to derail Brexit.

 

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

In Yesterdays PMQs, Ian Blackford stated quite clearly that on Monday the Scottish government had published their own study on the impact of brexit on Scotland.

Yes ,sandyf, I saw Ian Blackford (SNP I think) say a study was published last Monday, on PMQ's. However if you remember my original question  was "What independent assessment has been made?" Mondays report was a Government (SNP) report so I'm afraid its conclusions are ??????

Blackford, however, made no reference to the latest GDP figures which show the Scottish economy grew 0.2% in the third quarter last year compared to 0.4% in the UK overall. The GDP figures also showed that the Scottish economy grew by 0.6% between the third quarter of 2016 and the same period in 2017 while the UK economy increased by 1.7%.

Mrs May pointed out to Blackford that according to her analysis 1.7% is higher than 0.6% proving you are better off under a Conservative government than an SNP one. However if you insist on standing by SNP conclusions the Conservatives have said Scotland's economy has consistently underperformed the UK as a whole for the last decade causing a growth gap which has cost Scotland £16.5 billion

 

Trade Unions called the statistics worrying and showed the economy continues to stagnate. Business Groups called for immediate action.

The UK's 0.7% growth in the fourth quarter shook off fears about the economic impact of Brexit but the SNP have yet to explain why the Brexit impact has not affected the rest of the UK only Scotland.

Dean Lockhart (yes Conservative) said such low trends in economic growth have not been witnessed in 60 years; this is Nicola Sturgeons mess but her only answer is to blame Brexit and raise taxes.

 

Yes Bild...I agree ...More scaremongering and disinformation from her government once again in yet another attempt to derail Brexit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, aright said:

 

 

Yes ,sandyf, I saw Ian Blackford (SNP I think) say a study was published last Monday, on PMQ's. However if you remember my original question  was "What independent assessment has been made?" Mondays report was a Government (SNP) report so I'm afraid its conclusions are ??????

Blackford, however, made no reference to the latest GDP figures which show the Scottish economy grew 0.2% in the third quarter last year compared to 0.4% in the UK overall. The GDP figures also showed that the Scottish economy grew by 0.6% between the third quarter of 2016 and the same period in 2017 while the UK economy increased by 1.7%.

Mrs May pointed out to Blackford that according to her analysis 1.7% is higher than 0.6% proving you are better off under a Conservative government than an SNP one. However if you insist on standing by SNP conclusions the Conservatives have said Scotland's economy has consistently underperformed the UK as a whole for the last decade causing a growth gap which has cost Scotland £16.5 billion

 

Trade Unions called the statistics worrying and showed the economy continues to stagnate. Business Groups called for immediate action.

The UK's 0.7% growth in the fourth quarter shook off fears about the economic impact of Brexit but the SNP have yet to explain why the Brexit impact has not affected the rest of the UK only Scotland.

Dean Lockhart (yes Conservative) said such low trends in economic growth have not been witnessed in 60 years; this is Nicola Sturgeons mess but her only answer is to blame Brexit and raise taxes.

 

Yes Bild...I agree ...More scaremongering and disinformation from her government once again in yet another attempt to derail Brexit.

 

There is, of course, a counter argument that having only limited control of the economic levers a country needs to grow its economy is hindering the Scottish Government's ability to do so.

 

But the undercurrent of your point above, if I understand it correctly, is that the SNP would drive an independent Scotland into bankruptcy, and here is where that argument falls on it face: Scottish politics post independence would not be SNP driven. The SNP itself is a broad church of people of all political hues. I have no doubt that, post independence, it would cease to exist as we know it, and that a more traditional political landscape would quickly emerge. I even see the possiblity of a Scottish Tory government in an independent Scotland, but one with full control of the economy.

 

With regards derailing Brexit - more power to her elbow. Scotland was clear - we do not want pulled out of Europe. She is following the will of the Scottish electorate.

[metisdead]

"Off topic" posts and replies have been removed. 

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Doubt that as I've turned from 'unsure' into 'just leave' as a result of the eu's games....

Loose translation: "On Brexit I used to walk round in circles but now I prefer walking backwards".

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, aright said:

 

 

Yes ,sandyf, I saw Ian Blackford (SNP I think) say a study was published last Monday, on PMQ's. However if you remember my original question  was "What independent assessment has been made?" Mondays report was a Government (SNP) report so I'm afraid its conclusions are ??????

Blackford, however, made no reference to the latest GDP figures which show the Scottish economy grew 0.2% in the third quarter last year compared to 0.4% in the UK overall. The GDP figures also showed that the Scottish economy grew by 0.6% between the third quarter of 2016 and the same period in 2017 while the UK economy increased by 1.7%.

Mrs May pointed out to Blackford that according to her analysis 1.7% is higher than 0.6% proving you are better off under a Conservative government than an SNP one. However if you insist on standing by SNP conclusions the Conservatives have said Scotland's economy has consistently underperformed the UK as a whole for the last decade causing a growth gap which has cost Scotland £16.5 billion

 

Trade Unions called the statistics worrying and showed the economy continues to stagnate. Business Groups called for immediate action.

The UK's 0.7% growth in the fourth quarter shook off fears about the economic impact of Brexit but the SNP have yet to explain why the Brexit impact has not affected the rest of the UK only Scotland.

Dean Lockhart (yes Conservative) said such low trends in economic growth have not been witnessed in 60 years; this is Nicola Sturgeons mess but her only answer is to blame Brexit and raise taxes.

 

Yes Bild...I agree ...More scaremongering and disinformation from her government once again in yet another attempt to derail Brexit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What on earth has GDP got to do with the Scottish government study on brexit, that was what you brought into question.

[sandyf]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Yesterday the Times reported that support for independence had dropped to 43% - I simply cannot comprehend this. What is it that Scots see in Westminster that would want them to stay part of it? Unless, of course, the Times is disseminating fake news...

The question is, how do they measure support. As I said previously, many are in favour of independence but they do not want another referendum. Very easy to ask a question that gives the answer you want to hear.

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, Steve Mepham said:

Every last one of these Pygmy Politicians are simply playing Politics, you cant blame them because they are Politicians. But most of this posturing is simply designed to make Brexit just a little more difficult. 

So is TM actually working closely with the Pygmy Politicians?

[sandyf]

Another one bites the dust

 

A part of the infrastructure for the Galileo satellite system will be relocated from the Britain to Spain because of the UK’s departure from the EU, the European Commission has announced.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-galileo-satellite-space-industry-move-from-london-to-spain-madrid-uk-a8165841.html

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

There is, of course, a counter argument that having only limited control of the economic levers a country needs to grow its economy is hindering the Scottish Government's ability to do so.

 

But the undercurrent of your point above, if I understand it correctly, is that the SNP would drive an independent Scotland into bankruptcy, and here is where that argument falls on it face: Scottish politics post independence would not be SNP driven. The SNP itself is a broad church of people of all political hues. I have no doubt that, post independence, it would cease to exist as we know it, and that a more traditional political landscape would quickly emerge. I even see the possiblity of a Scottish Tory government in an independent Scotland, but one with full control of the economy.

 

With regards derailing Brexit - more power to her elbow. Scotland was clear - we do not want pulled out of Europe. She is following the will of the Scottish electorate.

Alex Salmond, unlike the English government, published a 650 page white paper prior to the referendum. That white paper had a significant number of flaws and I certainly would not have voted for it.

Until Nicola Sturgeon publishes her white paper only the arrogant would comment on what effect it would have on the Scottish economy.

[aright]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

What on earth has GDP got to do with the Scottish government study on brexit, that was what you brought into question.

Nothing. As you can see my reply was addressed to three contributors who have raised different issues and is there to be ignored if you so wish. If you think you are the only one who counts I can assure you, you are wrong. Why do you indulge in such petty point scoring?

[aright]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

Until Nicola Sturgeon publishes her white paper only the arrogant would comment on what effect it would have on the Scottish economy.

After 10 years of the SNP Scotland has seen low growth, low productivity and a complete lack of innovation. See the GDP figures. The Scottish economy is leading the country into recession and its growth rate is significantly lower than the rest of the UK  

Scotland has a world class work force and some of the worlds leading University's so no excuses there. Its all down to the SNP.

On the basis of record, Nicola Sturgeons white paper?

Call me arrogant!

[Khun Han]

11 minutes ago, aright said:

After 10 years of the SNP Scotland has seen low growth, low productivity and a complete lack of innovation. See the GDP figures. The Scottish economy is leading the country into recession and its growth rate is significantly lower than the rest of the UK  

Scotland has a world class work force and some of the worlds leading University's so no excuses there. Its all down to the SNP.

On the basis of record, Nicola Sturgeons white paper?

Call me arrogant!

 

And some of the forum's Scottish Nationalists accuse us brexiters of voting with our hearts rather than our heads.

[aright]

Of course they do and I put their heart votes down to too much time spent in girlie bars and playing with their di*£$% )computers.

 

[RuamRudy]

10 hours ago, aright said:

Nothing. As you can see my reply was addressed to three contributors who have raised different issues and is there to be ignored if you so wish. If you think you are the only one who counts I can assure you, you are wrong. Why do you indulge in such petty point scoring?

 

GDP is not calculated at regional levels. Scottish products which are exported from English or Welsh ports are not included in Scottish export figures. Similarly, Scottish components of rUK products are not credited to any concept of Scottish GDP - because  there cannot be a credible measure of regional GDP.

[RuamRudy]

6 hours ago, aright said:

After 10 years of the SNP Scotland has seen low growth, low productivity and a complete lack of innovation. See the GDP figures. The Scottish economy is leading the country into recession and its growth rate is significantly lower than the rest of the UK  

Scotland has a world class work force and some of the worlds leading University's so no excuses there. Its all down to the SNP.

On the basis of record, Nicola Sturgeons white paper?

Call me arrogant!

See my clarification on GDP and why it is not credible for any of the home nations.

 

That aside, forget the SNP - as you say, Scotland has all the requisites of a successful small nation. There is no reason it should not thrive as an independent country. The SNP may deliver us to independence, but they won't necessarily take us beyond that. We will then have a much more diverse political landscape to choose from.

 

There is a clear difference in societal attitudes between Scotland and rUK - rather than lumbering on with ever growing discontentment on both sides of the border, it is time to cut the ties and let us take full control of our country. That would be better for Scotland and better for the other home nations.

[RuamRudy]

6 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

And some of the forum's Scottish Nationalists accuse us brexiters of voting with our hearts rather than our heads.

Again, look at how these fallacies about Scottish "GDP" are just that - scare stories that fall apart with the first little scratch on the surface.

[Steve Mepham]

12 hours ago, sandyf said:

So is TM actually working closely with the Pygmy Politicians?

how can she, wee jimmy cranky AKA Sturgeon is determined not to cooperate so what is the point. 

[Steve Mepham]

36 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

See my clarification on GDP and why it is not credible for any of the home nations.

 

That aside, forget the SNP - as you say, Scotland has all the requisites of a successful small nation. There is no reason it should not thrive as an independent country. The SNP may deliver us to independence, but they won't necessarily take us beyond that. We will then have a much more diverse political landscape to choose from.

 

There is a clear difference in societal attitudes between Scotland and rUK - rather than lumbering on with ever growing discontentment on both sides of the border, it is time to cut the ties and let us take full control of our country. That would be better for Scotland and better for the other home nations.

I totally agree, if that is what the Scottish people want then so be it.

[Grouse]

As far as I can ascertain, we could cancel Brexit and continue with the status quo ante. Nevertheless, the Cons are hell bent on leaving next year. We will then have a two year transition period where everything remains roughly the same. At the end of the transition period we could rejoin the EU but without all our special rebates and opt outs.

 

What on earth is the point of that? Surely it's is best to hang on to our options as long as possible? We should tell the EU to cancel the current Brexit timing and reschedule for 2021.

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, aright said:

Nothing. As you can see my reply was addressed to three contributors who have raised different issues and is there to be ignored if you so wish. If you think you are the only one who counts I can assure you, you are wrong. Why do you indulge in such petty point scoring?

You asked a question and got an answer, end of story.

Do not quote me and introduce other issues, nothing short of deliberate distortion.

[sandyf]

9 hours ago, aright said:

After 10 years of the SNP Scotland has seen low growth, low productivity and a complete lack of innovation. See the GDP figures. The Scottish economy is leading the country into recession and its growth rate is significantly lower than the rest of the UK  

Scotland has a world class work force and some of the worlds leading University's so no excuses there. Its all down to the SNP.

On the basis of record, Nicola Sturgeons white paper?

Call me arrogant!

If the cap fits,wear it. Obviously you have a crystal ball and know exactly what changes will take place should independence ever come about.

Just like brexit opinions are being thrown about based on current circumstances, one day reality will kick in.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Again, look at how these fallacies about Scottish "GDP" are just that - scare stories that fall apart with the first little scratch on the surface.

Quite.

 

"To determine if Scotland would be better off or not, one has to reconstruct the national accounts to show how they would appear if Scotland were financially independent. This is because a number of revenue and spending transfers between Scotland and rUK would either cease to exist or be returned to the parent economy. Reallocating those spending and tax flows would change Scotland’s fiscal balances significantly in Scotland’s favour.

This point is now acknowledged in relation to oil and gas revenues, and perhaps debt interest payments; but not with respect to the other transfers and subsidy reversals. In other words, most economists continue to use the national accounts as they are. Insofar as their projections show Scotland worse off, they are showing how the Scottish economy would look if the union continued. That is to make a case for independence, not against it."

http://www.res.org.uk/view/art6Jul14Features.html

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

As far as I can ascertain, we could cancel Brexit and continue with the status quo ante. Nevertheless, the Cons are hell bent on leaving next year. We will then have a two year transition period where everything remains roughly the same. At the end of the transition period we could rejoin the EU but without all our special rebates and opt outs.

 

What on earth is the point of that? Surely it's is best to hang on to our options as long as possible? We should tell the EU to cancel the current Brexit timing and reschedule for 2021.

You misunderstand.  POLITICANS are "hell bent" on maintaining the status quo - let alone big business!

 

I'm sure the same interests would prefer to drag it out for as long as possible and this has already started with the 'transition period'.....

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

You misunderstand.  POLITICANS are "hell bent" on maintaining the status quo - let alone big business!

 

I'm sure the same interests would prefer to drag it out for as long as possible and this has already started with the 'transition period'.....

Empty waffle. Never mind. Carry on.

[aright]

14 hours ago, sandyf said:

Obviously you have a crystal ball and know exactly what changes will take place should independence ever come about.

Just like brexit opinions are being thrown about based on current circumstances, one day reality will kick in.

Forget about the crystal ball ....leopard ...spots etc. Why don't we have a look at the reality of the SNP over the last few years as seen by the New Statesman, before your so called reality kicks in.

Reminder: Some people would regard the New Statesman as the leading progressive and cultural magazine in the UK unlike the Richard Murphy altar at which you worship.

 

"Scotland already has one of the most powerful devolved administrations in the entire world. The SNP has ruled in Holyrood for nine years, and had a majority for the last five. Yet the SNP’s record, particularly for the most disadvantaged in society whom it claims to speak for, is dire."

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/05/its-time-snps-terrible-record-government-was-exposed