May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

I'm sure all this will be resolved in the appeals process.  The chances of it getting to the ECJ are pretty slim because of the timescale.  It takes quite some time to get a case in front of our lords and masters....

If the SC decision turns on Art 50 notification revocability , then the SC is obligated to seek a preliminary on the matter from the ECJ. Failure to do so could lead to damages claim

[dick dasterdly]

22 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

... things change. She said there would be pre-negotiations with the EU ... not happening.

Everyone to their own, but personally I've no doubt that negotiations are happening behind the scenes between those at the top in the EU and UK.

 

Perhaps more accurately described as 'feeling points' as the Brit. government doesn't know where it wants to go at the moment (bearing in mind it has to answer to the electorate) and the EU doesn't know how elections will go in other EU countries.

[dick dasterdly]

41 minutes ago, jpinx said:

That's already been ruled out by the PM

True, but being practical in politicians' terms, that means nothing.

 

I expect (but obviously don't know) that (assuming the EU doesn't collapse in the meantime) the Brit. govt. will come up with a 'deal' that is very close to the current arrangement as it suits their interests.

 

And then call another referendum based on 'this is the best deal possible'.  Whether this tactic will work or not is unknown.

 

Time will tell.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Quite so. I wonder if all of these people really understand the mechanics of it all. Once the UK invokes Article 50 there isn't a re-set button. The UK can't unilaterally say "Oh, sorry, just joking" or "We've changed our mind", referendum, general election or just bloody-mindedness. Invoking Article 50 is the divorce; everything else is the divorce settlement. The only way back is for all the other 27 states collectively to agree to a UK request to un-invoke Article 50. They may, they may not, they may decide to impose their own conditions such as "abandon the pound and use the euro". What's that old curse - "May you live in interesting times"?

There's already no 'reset' button as even if the Brit govt. finds a way of keeping the UK in the EU - the EU will be wary of another UK 'popular rebellion'.

 

Meanwhile, we're all wondering what will happen in up-coming elections in other EU countries.

[jpinx]

54 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Yes, if all, that is, each and every EU state individually agrees. That is not the equivalent to "Oops, sorry, changed our mind"

I never claimed there was a whoopsie clause -  just that Art50 is not irrevocable according to the author

[jpinx]

43 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

If the SC decision turns on Art 50 notification revocability , then the SC is obligated to seek a preliminary on the matter from the ECJ. Failure to do so could lead to damages claim

True -- I think the appeal will force a preliminary word from the ECJ.  It'll be interesting

[rockingrobin]

37 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Everyone to their own, but personally I've no doubt that negotiations are happening behind the scenes between those at the top in the EU and UK.

 

Perhaps more accurately described as 'feeling points' as the Brit. government doesn't know where it wants to go at the moment (bearing in mind it has to answer to the electorate) and the EU doesn't know how elections will go in other EU countries.

' as the Brit. government doesn't know where it wants to go at the moment (bearing in mind it has to answer to the electorate) and the EU doesn't know how elections will go in other EU countries.'

 

This would appear correct, the UK recently joined another EU institution ,European Unified Patent Court , which is only open to EU members

 

[jpinx]

36 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

True, but being practical in politicians' terms, that means nothing.

 

I expect (but obviously don't know) that (assuming the EU doesn't collapse in the meantime) the Brit. govt. will come up with a 'deal' that is very close to the current arrangement as it suits their interests.

 

And then call another referendum based on 'this is the best deal possible'.  Whether this tactic will work or not is unknown.

 

Time will tell.

That's a HUGE assumption --  but ya gotta luv the cynical voter :)

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, jpinx said:

That's a HUGE assumption --  but ya gotta luv the cynical voter :)

Yes and sorry - I'm a very cynical voter having watched what has happened over the past few decades .

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

That makes sense - the pollsters asked x number of people about how they were going to vote/education level etc.

 

But then we come back to the 'old' problem of the pollsters got it wrong on the referendum result.  Not to mention that most people (IMO) would not have the time of day for a pollster asking anything other than a yes/no question - so they were reliant on those who were prepared to provide answers to detailed questions?

 

Which rather makes a mockery of the argument that 'the intelligent/educated voted to remain whereas the stupid/uneducated voted to leave'!

 You chaps really have a chip on your shoulder about this issue!

 

Please get over it ?

[jpinx]

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

Yes and sorry - I'm a very cynical voter having watched what has happened over the past few decades .

Absolutely no reason to be sorry.  I was pulling your leg.  Actually it would be an easier world if more voters reacted to facts rather than emotions.

[jpinx]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

 You chaps really have a chip on your shoulder about this issue!

 

Please get over it ?

Which "chaps" are "you chaps"?   Is it necessary to divide the world into camps of chaps?  There's nothing to "get over" --  other than the result of a democratic vote which some people don't like. 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 You chaps really have a chip on your shoulder about this issue!

 

Please get over it ?

Alternatively, please stop saying that anyone who disagrees with your view is uneducated and stupid?

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, jpinx said:

Which "chaps" are "you chaps"?   Is it necessary to divide the world into camps of chaps?  There's nothing to "get over" --  other than the result of a democratic vote which some people don't like. 

 

 

 

The people who incessantly moan about the statistic that less well educated people tended to vote leave. OK?

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, jpinx said:

Which "chaps" are "you chaps"?   Is it necessary to divide the world into camps of chaps?  There's nothing to "get over" --  other than the result of a democratic vote which some people don't like. 

 

 

Of course there is a need for the odd poster to do this.

 

Any poster (and those who voted against their views) is obviously stupid and uneducated....  Its the most expressed explanation by them.

 

They're unable to understand WHY this happened - other than xenophobia etc. .

[jpinx]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

 

The people who incessantly moan about the statistic that less well educated people tended to vote leave. OK?

 A statistic borne of what analysis other than some "self-description" to a total stranger doing a poll in the street?

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

The people who incessantly moan about the statistic that less well educated people tended to vote leave. OK?

Go back a page or so when I wondered how this was known.....

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, jpinx said:

That's called democracy -- every vote counts the same.  Live with it........

 

Everybody agrees with that.

 

Does not make the majority correct though.

[jpinx]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Everybody agrees with that.

 

Does not make the majority correct though.

Democracy is not an indicator of right or wrong -- that is a courts job.  A democratic vote demonstrates the will of the people.  Now go to the back of the class and put your dunce's hat on again

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

And that's where we differ as my personal opinion is that many/most of the wealthiest segment voted to remain, as did many of the middle sector - because they were stupid enough to think that 'whatever benefits the wealthy also benefits me'.....

 

Unfortunately there is a large sector nowadays that realise there is nobody standing up for their interests and that the EU needs serious reform.

 

Hence my comments on inequality being a significant factor. Look at Gini coefficients and this will be clear. You can blame UK governments for this. Far less of an issue in other EU countries generally

[dick dasterdly]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

 

Everybody agrees with that.

 

Does not make the majority correct though.

You've ignored or mis-represented other posters so often (not to mention insulted) - that you must realise that no-one is about to change their point of view based on your posts?

 

But I do agree that the majority is not always correct.  The problem is that at this moment in time we know that both sides used nothing but propaganda - and are guessing as to what what will happen next.

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Hence my comments on inequality being a significant factor. Look at Gini coefficients and this will be clear. You can blame UK governments for this. Far less of an issue in other EU countries generally

You've no idea how much it hurt me to 'like' this post - purely because it came from you .

 

Give up the insults (and unsubstantiated posts about only the stupid and uneducated voted for brexit - for which you have no reply to the obvious questions as to this media belief) and I would 'like' more of your posts as I agree that leaving the EU will eventually result in worse employment conditions for ordinary employees.

Edited November 30, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[Grouse]

18 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Of course there is a need for the odd poster to do this.

 

Any poster (and those who voted against their views) is obviously stupid and uneducated....  Its the most expressed explanation by them.

 

They're unable to understand WHY this happened - other than xenophobia etc. .

 

I refer you to the list of possible list of reasons for voting leave that you accused of being propaganda. Did you not understand that?

 

Better educated people tended to vote remain. I did not make up that statistic. However, from what I hear and read, the statistic seems to be correct ?

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Grouse said:

 

I refer you to the list of possible list of reasons for voting leave that you accused of being propaganda. Did you not understand that?

 

Better educated people tended to vote remain. I did not make up that statistic. However, from what I hear and read, the statistic seems to be correct ?

You're going there again!  After I pointed out that your post was a mis-representation of my post?!

 

And I'm still waiting for your explanation as to how an anonymous vote was suddenly not anonymous at all - apparently voters didn't only vote, they also declared their educational level.....

[Grouse]

14 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Democracy is not an indicator of right or wrong -- that is a courts job.  A democratic vote demonstrates the will of the people.  Now go to the back of the class and put your dunce's hat on again

 

Wrong usage of right/wrong! Are you going to take me to court?

 

Let me phrase the point differently.

 

Everyone accepts the result of the vote. However it does not mean that the opinion of the majority will result in the best outcome for the UK

 

And, as the result was not a landslide, we have to be careful to avoid the tyranny of the majority

[Grouse]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

You're going there again!  After I pointed out that your post was a mis-representation of my post?!

 

And I'm still waiting for your explanation as to how an anonymous vote was suddenly not anonymous at all - apparently voters didn't only vote, they also declared their educational level.....

 

No idea.

 

However it fits nicely with my own experience and what I read and hear. There does indeed seem to be a correlation.

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

No idea.

 

However it fits nicely with my own experience and what I read and hear. There does indeed seem to be a correlation.

So you admit its an opinion rather than a known fact?

 

If not, please explain how this is a 'fact' - rather than an opinion with which, you agree.

 

Just realiised, your're trying to get me a holiday for going off-topic .

[jpinx]

30 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Wrong usage of right/wrong! Are you going to take me to court?

 

Let me phrase the point differently.

 

Everyone accepts the result of the vote. However it does not mean that the opinion of the majority will result in the best outcome for the UK

 

And, as the result was not a landslide, we have to be careful to avoid the tyranny of the majority

Now that's silly - I can't even get the Mods to stop your bickering, much less a court

The opinion of the majority is all that matters in a democracy -- only Spoilers would suggest otherwise. 

At least we are saved from the tyranny of the minority who would hold us in a most unsatisfactory marriage.

[jpinx]

31 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

No idea.

 

However it fits nicely with my own experience and what I read and hear. There does indeed seem to be a correlation.

Exactly *what* experience do you have of the Brexit vote?  Were you a pollster, or did you have access to the pollsters results? Or did you even stand and watch any of the pollsters at work? 

 

Oh -- wait a minute - I missed the first line of the quote -- you have answered everything now -- you have "No idea" :)

Edited November 30, 2016 by jpinx

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

You're going there again!  After I pointed out that your post was a mis-representation of my post?!

 

And I'm still waiting for your explanation as to how an anonymous vote was suddenly not anonymous at all - apparently voters didn't only vote, they also declared their educational level.....

They use quota samples and ask