Why doesn't Thailand offer Permanent Residency base on marriage?

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Johnniey said:

You should have applied for citizenship like most foreigners in other countries, you keep talking about, do.

 

Assuming you worked here, it would have been easy. If you don't work here, then it's pretty obvious why you can't get PR purely based on marrying a Thai. Think about it, any old guy could come here with little cash , marry Buriram Noi, adopting her kids and feel entitled to rights.

I've been married 29 years, lived here longer, have 4 grown up kids(my own) and know my rights. As I work here, I can get citizenship easier than any other country I know of.

 

I would guess you have not studied what it takes to obtain citizenship in most other countries.  Let's start with the country where I have citizenship - the USA.  If you were a non-citizen of the USA, and married a US-citizen, you could have a green-card (permanent residence), including the right to work anywhere (or multiple jobs), within 6 months tops.   At that point, the only significant benefit to citizenship is the right to vote in elections.  If this is important to you, it can be obtained by attending some classes and filing paperwork - nothing close to needing the level of approval that is required here (the very highest levels). 

 

A person granted a green-card in the USA can divorce, loose their job, etc, and not loose their permanent-residency.   Further, any child a non-citizen born in the US are granted citizenship at birth - even if both parents are in the country illegally at the time of their birth. 

 

You might also want to look at Paraguay.  PR requires US $5K in the bank only - no wife or children needed, after which citizenship available in 3 years; you don't even need to stay in the country in the interim.  Most countries in Central and South America provide very easy paths to PR and Citizenship, relative to Thailand.  I'll leave it to others to comment on Europe, which I have not researched.

[Johnniey]

7 hours ago, JackThompson said:

 

I would guess you have not studied what it takes to obtain citizenship in most other countries.  Let's start with the country where I have citizenship - the USA.  If you were a non-citizen of the USA, and married a US-citizen, you could have a green-card (permanent residence), including the right to work anywhere (or multiple jobs), within 6 months tops.   At that point, the only significant benefit to citizenship is the right to vote in elections.  If this is important to you, it can be obtained by attending some classes and filing paperwork - nothing close to needing the level of approval that is required here (the very highest levels). 

 

A person granted a green-card in the USA can divorce, loose their job, etc, and not loose their permanent-residency.   Further, any child a non-citizen born in the US are granted citizenship at birth - even if both parents are in the country illegally at the time of their birth. 

 

You might also want to look at Paraguay.  PR requires US $5K in the bank only - no wife or children needed, after which citizenship available in 3 years; you don't even need to stay in the country in the interim.  Most countries in Central and South America provide very easy paths to PR and Citizenship, relative to Thailand.  I'll leave it to others to comment on Europe, which I have not researched.

Well, as I'm already married, I couldn't get a green card easily, even if I wanted one.

Here, all I need is to work 3 years, paying tax on over 40k a month, live here 5 years and a few other simple things. 

In my country, UK, I believe one needs to pass a language test even if married to a local.

I looked into citizenship for Australia a few years back but very difficult. 

 

OK, so there are some exceptions like Paraguay but I'm sure there's reasons for that.

 

I'll stick to what I say regarding getting citizenship here, it's easy when married to a Thai. These days, one doesn't even need to be able to be fluent, or pass a test in Thai.

 

 

[KMartinHandyman]

The answer to the o/p seems pretty obvious that with permanent status would come "rights" and they don't want non-native people to supplant Thai nationals. It would take no time at all for foreigners to be controlling the country if they were allowed to own and invest independently rather than the current 49/51% business system,jobs reserved for Thais and no freehold rights.
They are the ultimate in protectionists and like it that way.

[Johnniey]

1 minute ago, KMartinHandyman said:

The answer to the o/p seems pretty obvious that with permanent status would come "rights" and they don't want non-native people to supplant Thai nationals. It would take no time at all for foreigners to be controlling the country if they were allowed to own and invest independently rather than the current 49/51% business system,jobs reserved for Thais and no freehold rights.
They are the ultimate in protectionists and like it that way.

Rights only comes with citizenship. 

Maybe you haven't  noticed but most foreigners that come here are hooked up with Sakon Nakon Suki or Khon Kaen Lek.  There has to be some restrictions like having a job, which IMHO, is perfectly reasonable if someone wants Citizenship of a country.

Are you trying to say Thailand doesn't give people citizenship?

[JackThompson]

29 minutes ago, Johnniey said:

Rights only comes with citizenship. 

Maybe you haven't  noticed but most foreigners that come here are hooked up with Sakon Nakon Suki or Khon Kaen Lek.  There has to be some restrictions like having a job, which IMHO, is perfectly reasonable if someone wants Citizenship of a country.

Are you trying to say Thailand doesn't give people citizenship?

 

The original issue was PR, which is difficult to obtain here, relative to most other locales, for those who are married to a local.  A PR does not grant the right to own property - a feature of Thailand which is, in my view, a good idea, as it allows Thais to retain control of their own country.  Given PR and Citizenship are nearly equally difficult for those married to a local, one might as well go for Citizenship.

 

Some "rights only come with citizenship," though PR-holders do have rights not afforded to those on "Non Immigrant" type visas - most importantly, in this context, "not being gone for over a year" is enough to retain the right to continue staying here.  

 

I do not like the sound of what you are implying as to who people are "hooked up" with.  If a "lowly" Thai's husband is booted, are their feelings of loss, or their children's, any less painful than the feelings of the daughter of a wealthy investment-banker?  Whose life and family will suffer more harm over all?  If the foreigner's wife passes, and any Thai children he has are grown, what then?  Start life over somewhere else at 60+?  That is the point of this particular thread, IMO - the potential destruction of families by not giving PR to long-stay-married (for years) relatives. 

[elliss]

On 11/5/2016 at 10:03 AM, Borzandy said:

Maybe, because a marriage is never permanent....

 

         Forever , the optimist .555

[Johnniey]

23 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

 

The original issue was PR, which is difficult to obtain here, relative to most other locales, for those who are married to a local.  A PR does not grant the right to own property - a feature of Thailand which is, in my view, a good idea, as it allows Thais to retain control of their own country.  Given PR and Citizenship are nearly equally difficult for those married to a local, one might as well go for Citizenship.

 

Some "rights only come with citizenship," though PR-holders do have rights not afforded to those on "Non Immigrant" type visas - most importantly, in this context, "not being gone for over a year" is enough to retain the right to continue staying here.  

 

I do not like the sound of what you are implying as to who people are "hooked up" with.  If a "lowly" Thai's husband is booted, are their feelings of loss, or their children's, any less painful than the feelings of the daughter of a wealthy investment-banker?  Whose life and family will suffer more harm over all?  If the foreigner's wife passes, and any Thai children he has are grown, what then?  Start life over somewhere else at 60+?  That is the point of this particular thread, IMO - the potential destruction of families by not giving PR to long-stay-married (for years) relatives. 

Actually, many years ago the laws like foreigners not being able to own land was due to the Japanese buying lots of land in Bangkok. What I mean is that because of the poverty in this country, many poor women would marry for money and businessmen would abuse that if they could buy land.

 

If someone is over 60 and has Thai citizens dependent on him/her, then it is very easy to get a visa, even if the wife/husband dies.

 

Thailand is easy to navigate once you've been here for a while and know how to play the game.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Johnniey

[KMartinHandyman]

Rights only comes with citizenship. 
Maybe you haven't  noticed but most foreigners that come here are hooked up with Sakon Nakon Suki or Khon Kaen Lek.  There has to be some restrictions like having a job, which IMHO, is perfectly reasonable if someone wants Citizenship of a country.
Are you trying to say Thailand doesn't give people citizenship?

My wife easily received her green card and is afforded rights from day one I can never achieve in Thailand. I could care less about being equal in Thailand as I have the choice to stay or go. Discussions of foreigners gaining anything through p/r or citizenship is a joke, there's no comparison versus my home country.

Benefits of holding a U.S. Green Card

There are many benefits of obtaining a US green card,which is why many immigrants to the US apply for a green card as soon as they are eligible. Also known as permanent residency, a greencard entitles you to several important benefits:

The freedom to work and live in the US permanently. With a green card, you can live and work in the US permanently. You can take any work you wish in the US, including many forms of government work. There are a few levels of security clearance which only US citizens qualify for, but green card holders can apply for virtually any job in the US. You will not need additional work authorization to work in the United States. With a greencard, you can make the US your permanent home and place of residence.
Freedom of movement. Once you are a green card holder, you can travel outside of the US and return freely. You can also travel anywhere within the US you wish and live in any part of the US you wish. If you do plan on leaving the country for more than six months, however, you may wish to take additional steps to safeguard your permanent residency.
The ability to sponsor relatives. Once you are a US green card holder, you can sponsor your relatives to get their own green card. Therefore, you can ensure that your family is united in the US and enjoys the same right to live and work in the US.
The ability to seek US citizenship. Once you have had your US green card for five years, you may qualify to apply for US citizenship, which will give you the right to vote and run for office.
Legal rights. With permanent residency in the US, you can get many social benefits, including research grants, taxation benefits, insurance coverage, social security benefits, state sponsorship in education, research, retirement benefits, and health benefits. With a US green card you can also own firearms, a house, cars, and other property in the US and even secure financing for these purchases.
Permanent status. With many nonimmigrant visas, you are only allowed a specific status for a short period of time and you must reapply in order to extend your stay. A green card, however, confers permanent status, so that you typically do not need to worry about reapplying for your status. Instead, you will only need to renew your green card every ten years or so, which is a very simple process.
"

[JackThompson]

42 minutes ago, Johnniey said:

Actually, many years ago the laws like foreigners not being able to own land was due to the Japanese buying lots of land in Bangkok. What I mean is that because of the poverty in this country, many poor women would marry for money and businessmen would abuse that if they could buy land.

 

We agree on this point as far as land-purchasing is concerned.  Thais should not become renters from foreigners in their own country.

 

42 minutes ago, Johnniey said:

If someone is over 60 and has Thai citizens dependent on him/her, then it is very easy to get a visa, even if the wife/husband dies.

Thailand is easy to navigate once you've been here for a while and know how to play the game.

 

The question is, what happens when the dependents are grown?  Better have that 800K-baht in the bank, and hope the retirement rules don't change - or else.   One hopeful point, is that the last change in the retirement rules included a grandfathering clause - though one slip-up in annual renewals or an unexpected financial issue could put an end to one's life as they have known it for possibly decades. 

 

The key to most games is usually "money," followed by "connections" and "knowledge" - in that order.

[Falconator]

I know a Shan woman from Myanmar who is married to a Thai man, and she has a Thai ID.

I wonder how people like this do it.

[ubonjoe]

15 minutes ago, Falconator said:

I know a Shan woman from Myanmar who is married to a Thai man, and she has a Thai ID.

I wonder how people like this do it.

She probably has had Thai citizenship granted after going through the application process. For foreign women married to a Thai man it is a fairly easy process.

[Falconator]

Still, the visa situation for foreign spouses in Thailand is much better than it is in Laos, Myanmar, or Malaysia.

 

Countries that make it far easier for foreign spouses include most European countries Brazil, and the Philippines.

 

So Thailand is sort of in the middle of the road when it comes to spousal visas and residency.

[SureeratTang]

On 11/5/2016 at 9:17 AM, ubonjoe said:

You can apply for PR if married to a Thai. The only advantage is that the income requirement is lower. You still have to be working with a work permit and paying taxes. Once approved the fee for the residence certificate is also lower.

If you can qualify for PR you can also apply for Thai citizenship and the income requirement is only 40k baht.

Need advice: If I am Thai PR and get a divorce with my Thai Wife, can I still maintain my Thai PR?

[ubonjoe]

16 minutes ago, SureeratTang said:

Need advice: If I am Thai PR and get a divorce with my Thai Wife, can I still maintain my Thai PR?

After you get PR your stay is no longer tied to being married. Getting divorced will not affect it.

[connda]

On 11/28/2017 at 8:18 AM, ubonjoe said:

After you get PR your stay is no longer tied to being married. Getting divorced will not affect it.

I wish I could get a PR.  The immigration laws totally suck.  If I could obtain a PR, lord the weight would be off.  

[Aussieroaming]

there is a benefit...I get paid into Thailand but no residency, hence no tax on my in- coming income. Thailands loss, our gain. But seriously, if I could have guaranteed security I would gladly abide by the law of the land.

[jayboy]

13 hours ago, Aussieroaming said:

there is a benefit...I get paid into Thailand but no residency, hence no tax on my in- coming income. Thailands loss, our gain. But seriously, if I could have guaranteed security I would gladly abide by the law of the land.

Residency under Thai tax law is not based on visa status.If you live here more than 6 months you are subject to income tax.Your lack of permanent residence status is irrelevant.

[Aussieroaming]

58 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Residency under Thai tax law is not based on visa status.If you live here more than 6 months you are subject to income tax.Your lack of permanent residence status is irrelevant.

 

58 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Residency under Thai tax law is not based on visa status.If you live here more than 6 months you are subject to income tax.Your lack of permanent residence status is irrelevant.

Agreed. My wife and I currently reside in one of the Stans, hence the above rule not applicable. But we get paid into our account in Thailand because that was my point of hire when I started. 

[nausea]

Couple of minor points, apologies if already mentioned.

 

First - why? As I understand it, legislation was originally introduced to stop the country being swamped with Chinese spouses; nothing to do with Farangs at all.

 

Also - be careful what you wish for. I imagine the current financial requirements might change dramatically if marriage came with permanent residency.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, nausea said:

...

Also - be careful what you wish for. I imagine the current financial requirements might change dramatically if marriage came with permanent residency.

A reasonable period of (for example) 5 years of marriage and living in Thailand would prevent this being abused. 

 

Certainly, they don't want to repeat the mistakes of the West, and flood their nation with unskilled, uneducated paupers, from cultures that sanction violence, and with their hands out the day they arrive for "free benefits."  But I don't see a reason for raising the existing financial requirements to accommodate some form of residency.  The current financial requirements are 10K Baht /mo higher than those needed to qualify for citizenship as a man married to a Thai lady, and are many times higher than the median Thai wage.

 

From a 2004 post:

"A foreigner who has a Thai spouse must earn at least 30,000 baht a month and have paid personal income taxes for at least three years. The old rule required minimum income of 10,000 baht a month."   This was in the context of reporting the raising of the threshold from 10K/mo.

Reports in other threads indicate that they don't consider applications for citizenship with incomes that low, however. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by JackThompson