Education going backward?

[sandemara]

I taught English (speaking, writing) in an English Degree and Business/Marketing degrees at one of Thailand's top 10 unis for 5 years up to the end of last year. I ran training programs for other staff  (teachers and admin) as well, rehab programs for students at risk of failure, intensive courses for students participating in o'seas progs, IELTS etc. From my observations (as someone dealing with students coming out of that environment), the quality of English language programs in primary and high schools varied, but in the main resulted in low to very poor achievement levels. Across the board, education policy (as interpreted by teachers in the classroom) appeared to discourage individual achievement, curiosity, critical thinking etc. Most students seemed afraid to ask questions of any sort, let alone question teachers' instructions or opinions. Thai social values seem to disapprove of many personal characteristics necessary for academic excellence or high achievement by an individual student in the western tradition. Individualism, questioning of social or other values or experimentation is discouraged. The majority of students in my classes came from the privileged strata; they seemed, as a group, to have been cossetted from birth and cocooned from life's realities. I occasionally would make statements in class designed to flabbergast, to draw someone - anyone - into debate, but I guess I would be a lousy trout fisherman.  If ever a country needed to promote and develop a healthy atmosphere applicable in a debating competition, Thailand is it. But, so exasperating, it was too difficult for me to light the fire of enthusiasm in one tertiary institution where, in normal (western) educational  circumstances such an activity could provide so much pleasure and joy. By contrast, suspicion and trepidation was the overwhelming response from the student body. I also tried volunteering in local primary schools to check the other end of the production line. One school's main English teacher insisted the correct pronunciation of "knee" included sounding the silent "k" (sigh). I had no concerns about Thai students; those at uni level deserved to be there - bright, keen, hungry to learn, but open-minded?  .... Way too many had been severely hampered by forces working against their academic potential in a western environment.  Maybe that is a desirable social and cultural reality for Thailand.  However, the way private tutoring businesses and "international" institutions seem to be thriving throughout the country tells me many people are voting with their bank books for something other than "traditional' education practices.  Fine, but a bit sad for poorer families who want something better for their kids.

[MikeyIdea]

Beautiful post Sandemara. You show an insight that many westerners who have been here for 15 years still don't have. You have nailed many of the underlying cultural differences of Thailand compared to the western world.

 

It's not that the people at the ministry of education are idiots who don't understand better, the MoE are aware of what you write. The problem statement is how to incorporate this into Thai's without stopping them from being Thai's, without changing them and Thailand too much

 

34 minutes ago, sandemara said:

However, the way private tutoring businesses and "international" institutions seem to be thriving throughout the country tells me many people are voting with their bank books for something other than "traditional' education practices.  Fine, but a bit sad for poorer families who want something better for their kids.

 

Well yes, but the Thai parents who are paying are often not aware of what is making the real difference. That's why most English programme schools in Thailand have more homework, more extra tutoring than Thai schools. The parents ask for it. Partially the same with international schools now when 90% of the students are Thai in many of them

 

+1 :)

Edited November 7, 2016 by MikeyIdea

[sandemara]

MikeyIdea, I'd like to think I'm an idealist, but formal education services throughout the world are more about preparing children only to be productive, co-operative members of the society in which they live. Expatriates here need to keep that in mind when considering what schooling to 'buy' for their offspring.  The two families in which I had a father role went thru Australian systems that I thought were terrific. But I made sure the kids knew I was not just interested in (and supported) their studies; I got involved in their schools as well thru participation in parent-teacher committees, making sure my kids knew I had a first-name relationship with their teachers every year and that I believed in life-long learning for learning's sake, an adventure and a privilege that can make life worth living.  This was a huge contrast with my own personal schooling experiences as a youngster, but you have to learn to fake sincerity if it's worthwhile; I found it to be so. My "attitude" was a great benefit for my kids. I found kids have great bullshit detectors, so just saying schooling is great wasn't enough.  Their best support is your personal interest, listening, (not judging) and encouraging, looking for positives, getting involved (when they asked, rather than sticking my nose in) etc.  I have two grandchildren just entering the system (international) in Bangkok.  My daughter (the mother) is a real lioness and has thrown herself unreservedly into how she supports and guides them (makes me real proud); her brother works at an international school and keeps looking for reasons to go back to uni for more qualifications  related to his passion for sport.  They get "passion" and tolerate my own ratbaggery. They both realise education is great investment in themselves.  As far as cultural imperatives in Thailand are concerned, expats (and their kids) are fortunate that they have choices and can work around many of the negatives (or challenges) confronting them in the dominant culture here.  Cultural or philosophical changes can only be changed by a willing society - hopeless to expect outsiders' wishes imposed arbitrarily are going to be accepted.

[geisha]

I have noticed in my daily doings, shopping, téléphone company, transport -including  airline staff, banks etc , that hardly any youth speak English ! For example,I went  to the Apple Store for a problem, not one of the staff could understand. Asking a group of 20 year old students where to get the bus to a certain area had them looking at me as if I was from out of space ! The only places I find a smattering of English is in restaurants and hotels. I am talking about well known tourist areas and not in the countryside. I do think that in today's world and for a lot of careers English is a must. Probably this is why there is a lack of qualified staff for many good job positions . 

[recycler]

7 hours ago, MikeyIdea said:

 

 

 

You are again babbling about political and military content, I have already replied to you about that and you chose not to answer of course

 

Military and political content? There is nothing about military and political content in the Thai curriculum and it is not taught in Thai schools either. There is however a whole lot about Thai culture, Thai tradition, Thai social values, Thai history and it is even compulsory to know how the Thai electoral system is built up. Please read the Thai curriculum... It is readily available on the internet in Thai.

 

This is not a surprise: Thai schools teach everything that Thai values find important, they teach everything based on Thai values, they choose to teach what is important for Thai's, they teach what Thai's are proud of and proud to be. Most westerners find that pretty useless, sure. It's hardly up to foreigners to dictate what is important for Thai's and thereby should be taught in Thai schools though

 

The problem with the Thai schools is not what Thai schools teach, they teach what the schools should teach considering that they are Thai, the main issue is how they teach it and that it is more important to learn = memorise all the above than it is to be able to use it

 

Thai schools influence how learning is absorbed. Thai children tend to rely on memorisation first, logical and critical thinking second. This is also what the OP posts about. I expected that when my daughter started school and tried to compensate for it at home, I have been worried too but I think it works OK. It's a bit weird, she has mainly Ds and Fs in Thai subjects and As and Bs in English, she is a bit lazy so she would be somewhere in the middle in Europe. I am confident that she will be a high performer as long as she chooses something that she likes and... I am happy that she has absorbed Thai values too and has a broader base to make her decisions in life on 

 

I have an old western friend living in Trad, his half Thai son has been schooled totally within the Thai system, with a western father and a university educated Thai mother at home. He is the best in his class here and I think he would be the best in his class also in a British school

 

Educated Thai's talk about the failure of the Thai educational system and it is of course true and Thai schools are generally bad at preparing children for life. It has had quite a lot of media coverage in the Thai press, yes there should be more emphasis on Maths and Science but it is not much about that wrong things are taught actually, it is more about that it is taught the wrong way.

 

PM Prayut also brought up critical thinking but that is difficult to match with Thai culture. I have many times over the years heard Thai's say that they don't want their kids in International schools because they become impolite, obstinate even. It took me 15 years to stop laughing at it but then I realised that it of course is true. They are taught self-confidence, taught to question but not how to implement it in a Thai cultural environment.

 

OP, I don't think you should worry too much, kids do go through stages, it's up and down and that is also how life is.

 

Do be active in their education and in their life, in a friendly non pushy way, be their primary role model in life and your kids will copy you, the good as well as the bad :) Less extra tutoring, less emphasis on knowledge and more on EQ of course

 

Your kids will do fine. Good Luck

 

Mikey

 

I'm not babbling, I posted about the content, not the methods, I don't even want to go in to rote learning and other backward techniques they use here. My concerns about the content are not just my observations, but also those of teachers and former teachers on schools here. Can't go in to further detail here not the right time to be critical.

 

Labeling something culture doesn't make it right. Thai education prepares kids for subordination in their rigid caste system. Another reason to skip that part from their formal education, they will definitely learn enough about that outside school.

 

It will also benefit them to have English as their main language of expression and thinking instead of Thai that is cluttered with confirmation and re-confirmation of relative social status in every single spoken or written sentence. What do you think about 4 and 5 year old kids that have to refer to themselves as the older (pi) and to the other as the younger (nong) or mouse (nuu) and vice versa in every single sentence that they speak to each other. This doesn't stop at that age, also well educated people having a meeting at work or writing emails communicate in that way.

 

I read a while ago about research on the effect that the language that bi-lingual people use has on their personality depending on the different capacities to express. The research was done with people that where bi-lingual German and English, that really made me worry about the differences between Thai and English as main language of expression and the effects on their personality.

[MikeyIdea]

 

On 05/11/2016 at 11:04 AM, jcisco said:

If you go and add those comments regarding the page to the talk page, i'll likely mark the page for deletion and it will pass

 

I have added the comments, mark the page for deletion so that it does not spread more mis-information please 

 

[MikeyIdea]

5 hours ago, recycler said:

I'm not babbling, I posted about the content, not the methods

 

And after that you talk about the methods. You should read Sandemara recycler 

 

8 hours ago, sandemara said:

formal education services throughout the world are more about preparing children only to be productive, co-operative members of the society in which they live

 

I can only reformulate and change a bit in what Sandemara  already put so well

 - It is the duty of the formal education services in different countries to prepare children to be productive and co-operative members of the society in which they live

 

Sorry to bust your bubble but Thai students don't live in your homeland 

 

Many things in Thai schools are inefficient, yes absolutely, it forms the Thai people and make them passive etc.., yes absolutely, but you cannot just make isolated changes, a change will effect in more than one area, there will be both positive and negative side effects

 

I say what I always say: Active parenting can bridge most gaps. I see nothing of the Thai traits you talk about in my daughter. I will move her to an international school for grade 7 because I can now afford it but driven by my experience of the Thai educational system. I am happy that she has absorbed Thai values too and has a broader base to make her decisions in life on 

 

I am confident that she will be a high performer as long as she chooses something that she likes

 

It was a lot of hard work and I loved it 

 

[MikeyIdea]

6 hours ago, MikeyIdea said:

I see nothing of the Thai traits you talk about in my daughter

 

One correction... I use "you" but I reply to a post by recycler, that's not correct. I was referring to Sandemara's excellent description of Thai personality traits in post 31

 

[Krataiboy]

The Thai education system, in common with its counterparts across the world, is based on an outmoded model created to serve the needs of the Industrial Revolution and designed to churn out compliant cogs obedient to authority and happy to take their place at the capitalist conveyor belt.

 

It was out of date half a century ago, let alone now. with the world on the verge of a new technological revolution in computing and robotics predicted to make most human labour redundant within half a century.

 

I am doing all I can to prevent my leuk krung child from being dumbed down and robbed  of her creativity and natural curiosity by a Thai state school system run on rote learning, endless testing to see how much largely useless data a child can absorb, and, of course, corporal punishment. .

 

When one takes into account the Ministry  of Education's bloated budget and the appalling results achieved, this must rank as on of the worst value-for-money educational systems in the world.

 

Unfortunately,  the working classThai parents whose children are the victims of this iniquitous neglect,  are almost uniformly supine when it comes to demanding something better. After all those years of them being brainwashed at state schools, what else should one expect?

On 05/11/2016 at 10:27 AM, MikeyIdea said:

I really enjoy the subject but don't have time to make a long answer now. Short start...

 

I've been in Thailand for over 25 years now, I haven't been teaching here for 20 years but I think I keep up pretty well because I live mainly in the Thai world so to speak, I speak and read Thai (won't mention my writing, ok? ), I have a daughter in grade 6 in a bilingual school in Bangkok and I have followed her and the school closely, I have several western friends who have worked as teachers in Thailand for several years. Not an expert but awake I suppose

 

That Wikipedia page is a joke, definitely one of the worse Wikipedia pages I have ever read. 

It draws conclusions from mysterious non named surveys, sometimes a reputable organisation that of course has formally published its work is mentioned but there is no link to it,  much in the page is in negatives like "Teacher development and associated problems", it states "facts" totally without reference

 

There are totally incorrect statements like "many high school students will commute 60–80 kilometres to schools in the nearest city", the word "bestowed" is in quotation marks but no reference to why. I can't be bothered to continue, the quality of the article is simply too low

 

There are many problems with the Thai educational system, some Thai's openly talk about the failure of the Thai educational system and there clearly is some truth in it of course. I will move my own daughter to an international school for grade 7 because I can now afford it but driven by my experience of the Thai educational system

 

But...

 

The Wikipedia page looks like it has been written by a bunch of different foreign teacher with bachelor degrees in any field who finally got fired from Thai schools because of their alcoholism and want to take revenge any way they can  

 

 

 

As a teacher, you clearly failed to learn much about the well-documented inadequacies of the Thai school system - shortcomings which are now acknowledged even by Thai educational establishment.

 

The low IQ and poor academic performance of Thai state school children, which has attracted considerable media coverage, is clearly of legitimate concern not just to the government but also to millions of parents who lack the funds to send their offspring to expensive international schools.

Your attempt to dismiss the lengthy and detailed Wikipedia discourse on education in Thailand by claiming it "looks like it has been written by a bunch of different foreign teacher(s) . . .  who got fired from Thai schools and want to take revenge in any way they can" is so palpably absurd that it makes me extremely thankful that my children were never entrusted to your teaching care.

 

[MikeyIdea]

2 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

The Thai education system, in common with its counterparts across the world, is based on an outmoded model created to serve the needs of the Industrial Revolution and designed to churn out compliant cogs obedient to authority and happy to take their place at the capitalist conveyor belt.

 

It was out of date half a century ago, let alone now. with the world on the verge of a new technological revolution in computing and robotics predicted to make most human labour redundant within half a century.

 

Of course it is... We all agree on that

 

2 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

I am doing all I can to prevent my leuk krung child from being dumbed down and robbed  of her creativity and natural curiosity by a Thai state school system run on rote learning, endless testing to see how much largely useless data a child can absorb, and, of course, corporal punishment.

 

Here I don't agree with you and I do not do what you do.

 

I think it is my duty to not rob my half Thai daughter of her inheritance so I instead do all I can to let my child be able fit in to and understand both worlds. It's harder work of course but as I have written before, I am confident that she will be a high performer as long as she chooses something that she likes

 

2 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

When one takes into account the Ministry  of Education's bloated budget and the appalling results achieved, this must rank as on of the worst value-for-money educational systems in the world.

 

The MoE aren't idiots at all and they know very well what is going on, the problem they have is that there are 50 million plus Thai's in this country who don't want change

 

2 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

Unfortunately,  the working classThai parents whose children are the victims of this iniquitous neglect,  are almost uniformly supine when it comes to demanding something better. After all those years of them being brainwashed at state schools, what else should one expect?

 

it is actually the working class Thai's who don't want the system to change the most...  You know that of course.  What you don't know or don't accept are the reasons, perhaps because they don't match your values. The Thai's who don't want to change actually think they have valid reasons for not wanting to change. It has to do with their core values

 

If I am wrong then I apologise but it sounds like you have not been here long enough to understand that the goals of the vast majority of Thai's are very different from westerners

 

I have lived the last 23 years in the same working class soi in Bangkok and I love it there. I have changed a lot the last 25 plus years in Thailand. The working class Thai's have not, actually they haven't changed anything almost. They have it much better but they haven't changed.

 

My neighbors used to hit their kids fingers every time they wanted to explore something even slightly dirty and scared them of ghosts all the time. They didn't care if the kids slept day or night almost, they didn't care if it was quiet when the kids should sleep, they didn't care about times for food. 

 

I recommended the cheap Thai books you can buy at Big C with good advice how to help children develop better 20 years ago, they were no more than 40-50 baht. The parents didn't look happy when I did, they came with an excuse about money, then went a bought more beer half an hour later. I stopped mentioning it because I saw that they didn't like it, they didn't want to change, they wanted to continue to bring up their children the way their parents had brought up them

 

Some of the families are still there today. I saw their kids grow up, one girl had 2 abortions and two kids by the age of 20-21, then she sterilized herself. I asked her: You're only 20, what if you and your boyfriend split up and he fights for custody and you have another boyfriend? I could see that she didn't like it so I stopped. Thai's don't want to think of the negative

 

This girl is 22 or so now, she still hits the fingers of her children when they touch the ground, she still scares them of ghosts so that they don't walk away so that they themselves can sit down and drink. She still screams at them with and without reason and do not consider if actions are good or bad for their future development. So do everybody else. In short, they still bring up their children the same way their parents brought up them. They have it much better though so the kids will probably finish university in 20 years time, full of knowledge that they have memorised but can't use, same as today 

 

The neighbours can see that my daughter is different from their kids, she has more initiative, she dares to try, she questions, she has more self confidence, more imagination (and that is despite going to a Thai bilingual school). We talk about our kids and I tell them that it's about how we teach our kids and not the school they go to and the neighbours walk away convinced that it is the better school I send my daughter too that makes the difference...

 

This is what I have seen of the poor Thai's the last 25 years. I have achieved a lot the last 25 years. I have paid of my house, my car, I have it much better. My neighbours the Thai's have it much better too. And they have laughed and had much more fun in life than I have the last 25 years

 

I have 2 points

- The first one is that it is very possible to let a child go through the Thai system and she will become what you as a parent are if you put in enough time. She will have less knowledge though, Thai schools don't keep up with western schools of course. That does not mean less ability.

- The second point is: Why are you sure your way is correct? I look back at my friends from the university years. They have much more of everything in life now when they are old but they have also had much less fun during their lives than most poor Thai's have

 

What do you want to do Krataiboy? Force the Thais to change to be what they don't want to be? I think you are wrong

 

2 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

As a teacher, you clearly failed to learn much about the well-documented inadequacies of the Thai school system - shortcomings which are now acknowledged even by Thai educational establishment.

 

I am not a teacher, I am a MSc working for a multi-national in Bangkok. My argument with what you write is that the inadequacies and the shortcomings you want to change now didn't come by coincidence at all. They have been shaped over generations to suit the Thai culture. They are no mistake

 

2 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

The low IQ and poor academic performance of Thai state school children, which has attracted considerable media coverage, is clearly of legitimate concern not just to the government but also to millions of parents who lack the funds to send their offspring to expensive international schools.

 

Of course it is. But the understanding is at the level where also the rich Thai parents who send their offspring to expensive international schools are partially destroying the benefit by demanding that the schools give 10 homework assignments per week, make them more Thai to give their beloved offspring a better chance in life... And that is what the rich, the cream of the cream do

 

I do hope that Thailand changes because I feel sorry for all the hard work that the Thai's put in the wrong way, not getting much in return. But I hope that Thailand changes at a pace that Thailand is ready for

 

2 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

Your attempt to dismiss the lengthy and detailed Wikipedia discourse on education in Thailand by claiming it "looks like it has been written by a bunch of different foreign teacher(s) . . .  who got fired from Thai schools and want to take revenge in any way they can" is so palpably absurd that it makes me extremely thankful that my children were never entrusted to your teaching care

 

I absolutely agree with all the negative aspects of the Thai teaching technique. I can't write all the negative effects better than Sandemara did in post  http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/952060-education-going-backward/?page=2#comment-11305939. I agree with Every Single One Of Them   

 

So why do I then claim the article has many mistakes and why do I claim that it is misleading people?

 

You haven't been here long enough to be able to see the mistakes, that's all

 

I can only get to the second paragraph of the article before it gets laughable

"many high school students will commute 60–80 kilometres to schools in the nearest city"

 

That is clearly written by a westerner who don't know that Thai's never would allow their children to travel that far. It's a joke. A Thai will let the child stay with a relative instead because it is too dangerous. And they have lots of relatives. There is more when you read through the article 

 

Come back in another 15 years time when you know enough to see what more is wrong 
 

Edited November 8, 2016 by MikeyIdea
Added the most

[Sig]

Without getting into details of the whys... I went through 5 years of Thai university at two Thai universities, which are among their top few universities, from the age of 47. I would equate it to a glorified high school back home. I don't even want to think what the average level university is like! I was impressed by a few students during my time studying. Every time I met a student who impressed me, I asked them where they studied before. Every single one of them had studied overseas! Most students are so clueless they should be working as an apartment security guard or sweeping a street somewhere (not to demean those honorable people who do those jobs with excellence). I can't even begin to imagine the horror of sending my own child to a Thai school. That is insane. Oh, and these universities are ones where rich families are doing their damnedest to get their children to enter! If they had as much sense as they have money, they would send their children out of the country to study!

[Krataiboy]

22 hours ago, MikeyIdea said:

 

Of course it is... We all agree on that

 

 

Here I don't agree with you and I do not do what you do.

 

I think it is my duty to not rob my half Thai daughter of her inheritance so I instead do all I can to let my child be able fit in to and understand both worlds. It's harder work of course but as I have written before, I am confident that she will be a high performer as long as she chooses something that she likes

 

 

The MoE aren't idiots at all and they know very well what is going on, the problem they have is that there are 50 million plus Thai's in this country who don't want change

 

 

it is actually the working class Thai's who don't want the system to change the most...  You know that of course.  What you don't know or don't accept are the reasons, perhaps because they don't match your values. The Thai's who don't want to change actually think they have valid reasons for not wanting to change. It has to do with their core values

 

If I am wrong then I apologise but it sounds like you have not been here long enough to understand that the goals of the vast majority of Thai's are very different from westerners

 

I have lived the last 23 years in the same working class soi in Bangkok and I love it there. I have changed a lot the last 25 plus years in Thailand. The working class Thai's have not, actually they haven't changed anything almost. They have it much better but they haven't changed.

 

My neighbors used to hit their kids fingers every time they wanted to explore something even slightly dirty and scared them of ghosts all the time. They didn't care if the kids slept day or night almost, they didn't care if it was quiet when the kids should sleep, they didn't care about times for food. 

 

I recommended the cheap Thai books you can buy at Big C with good advice how to help children develop better 20 years ago, they were no more than 40-50 baht. The parents didn't look happy when I did, they came with an excuse about money, then went a bought more beer half an hour later. I stopped mentioning it because I saw that they didn't like it, they didn't want to change, they wanted to continue to bring up their children the way their parents had brought up them

 

Some of the families are still there today. I saw their kids grow up, one girl had 2 abortions and two kids by the age of 20-21, then she sterilized herself. I asked her: You're only 20, what if you and your boyfriend split up and he fights for custody and you have another boyfriend? I could see that she didn't like it so I stopped. Thai's don't want to think of the negative

 

This girl is 22 or so now, she still hits the fingers of her children when they touch the ground, she still scares them of ghosts so that they don't walk away so that they themselves can sit down and drink. She still screams at them with and without reason and do not consider if actions are good or bad for their future development. So do everybody else. In short, they still bring up their children the same way their parents brought up them. They have it much better though so the kids will probably finish university in 20 years time, full of knowledge that they have memorised but can't use, same as today 

 

The neighbours can see that my daughter is different from their kids, she has more initiative, she dares to try, she questions, she has more self confidence, more imagination (and that is despite going to a Thai bilingual school). We talk about our kids and I tell them that it's about how we teach our kids and not the school they go to and the neighbours walk away convinced that it is the better school I send my daughter too that makes the difference...

 

This is what I have seen of the poor Thai's the last 25 years. I have achieved a lot the last 25 years. I have paid of my house, my car, I have it much better. My neighbours the Thai's have it much better too. And they have laughed and had much more fun in life than I have the last 25 years

 

I have 2 points

- The first one is that it is very possible to let a child go through the Thai system and she will become what you as a parent are if you put in enough time. She will have less knowledge though, Thai schools don't keep up with western schools of course. That does not mean less ability.

- The second point is: Why are you sure your way is correct? I look back at my friends from the university years. They have much more of everything in life now when they are old but they have also had much less fun during their lives than most poor Thai's have

 

What do you want to do Krataiboy? Force the Thais to change to be what they don't want to be? I think you are wrong

 

 

I am not a teacher, I am a MSc working for a multi-national in Bangkok. My argument with what you write is that the inadequacies and the shortcomings you want to change now didn't come by coincidence at all. They have been shaped over generations to suit the Thai culture. They are no mistake

 

 

Of course it is. But the understanding is at the level where also the rich Thai parents who send their offspring to expensive international schools are partially destroying the benefit by demanding that the schools give 10 homework assignments per week, make them more Thai to give their beloved offspring a better chance in life... And that is what the rich, the cream of the cream do

 

I do hope that Thailand changes because I feel sorry for all the hard work that the Thai's put in the wrong way, not getting much in return. But I hope that Thailand changes at a pace that Thailand is ready for

 

 

I absolutely agree with all the negative aspects of the Thai teaching technique. I can't write all the negative effects better than Sandemara did in post  http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/952060-education-going-backward/?page=2#comment-11305939. I agree with Every Single One Of Them   

 

So why do I then claim the article has many mistakes and why do I claim that it is misleading people?

 

You haven't been here long enough to be able to see the mistakes, that's all

 

I can only get to the second paragraph of the article before it gets laughable

"many high school students will commute 60–80 kilometres to schools in the nearest city"

 

That is clearly written by a westerner who don't know that Thai's never would allow their children to travel that far. It's a joke. A Thai will let the child stay with a relative instead because it is too dangerous. And they have lots of relatives. There is more when you read through the article 

 

Come back in another 15 years time when you know enough to see what more is wrong 

 

18

 

Your condescending assumption about my lack of experience of the Thai education system is as misguided as your bizarre and similarly unsubstantiated theory about the authorship of the Wikipedia entry to which you take exception.

 

For the record, I have lived here for18 years and my wife and I have already seen five children through the Thai state school system. I have spent a lot of time talking to teachers and parents, as well as my own and other youngsters about this subject.

 

One can nit-pick endlessly on the causes, but the fact remains that Thai education is a miserable failure even by regional - let alone international - standards.

 

It is not fit even for the basic (and in my view dubious) purpose of creating "productive co-operative members of the society in which they live", let alone for equipping young Thais to compete in an increasingly international marketplace.

 

The current administration's obsession with using the classroom to inculcate future generations with a dogma based on nationalism and an arbitrary set of core values dreamed up by a retired soldier can only make matters worse.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2016 by Krataiboy
error

[MikeyIdea]

3 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

 

Your condescending assumption about my lack of experience of the Thai education system is as misguided as your bizarre and similarly unsubstantiated theory about the authorship of the Wikipedia entry to which you take exception.

 

For the record, I have lived here for18 years and my wife and I have already seen five children through the Thai state school system. I have spent a lot of time talking to teachers and parents, as well as my own and other youngsters about this subject.

 

One can nit-pick endlessly on the causes, but the fact remains that Thai education is a miserable failure even by regional - let alone international - standards.

 

It is not fit even for the basic (and in my view dubious) purpose of creating "productive co-operative members of the society in which they live", let alone for equipping young Thais to compete in an increasingly international marketplace.

 

The current administration's obsession with using the classroom to inculcate future generations with a dogma based on nationalism and an arbitrary set of core values dreamed up by a retired soldier can only make matters worse.

 

 

 

Quote  "Prathom (ประถม) 1–3, are for age groups 7–9; the second level, Prathom 4 through 6 are for age groups 10–12;  the third level, Matthayom (มัธยม) 1–3, is for age groups 13–15. The upper secondary level of schooling consists of Matthayom 4–6 for age groups 16–18 and is divided into academic and vocational streams" end quote

 

1) Prathom (ประถม) - the correct written form is ประถมศึกษา, ประถม is only used in speech, it is never written

2) Matthayom (มัธยม) 1–3, is for age groups 13–15) - Wrong again, Matthayom 1–3 is มัธยมศึกษาตอนต้น in Thai

3) Matthayom 4–6  - The Thai translation is not included this time but the article has already stated that it is มัธยม. The problem is that Matthayom 4–6 is มัธยมศึกษาตอนปลาย, not มัธยม

4) Matthayom (มัธยม)  - the correct written form is มัธยมศึกษา, มัธยม is only used in speech, it is never formally written

 

Quote "Village and sub-district schools usually provide pre-school kindergarten (anuban อนุบาล) and elementary classes, while in the district towns, schools will serve their areas with comprehensive schools with all the classes from kindergarten to age 15 and separate secondary schools for ages 13 through 18"

 

5)  District towns do not normally server their areas with classes from KG to age 15, they normally go from KG to 12, few go from KG to 15. The separate secondary schools are from ages 13 through 18, at least that is correct

 

Quote "many high school students will commute 60–80 kilometres to schools in the nearest city" end quote

6) Obviously... as Professor Snaps said: Many high school students do not commute 60–80 kilometres to schools in Thailand

 

I must say... I apologise for saying that you haven't been here long enough. With 18 years, you have. It does not change my opinion that if you challenge when someone says that the article is wrong in many places, then you should have enough knowledge first. You do not 

 

I can find 6 mistakes where the Wikipedia article is wrong by only reading to the second paragraph. You didn't find them

 

You thought that I by criticizing the article object to that Thai education is bad, I do not, it IS bad, of course it is

 

I think we agree 100% on that education is bad and if you have been here 18 years then we probably also agree perfectly on where and why it is bad

 

I criticize

1) The mistakes in the article = the article should not be published for fathers to read until it is of better quality

2) People who assume that the Ministry of Education is full of Thai idiots who don't understand that they need to change. - I went to the MoE to follow up on a case when I was interpreter in Thai Juvenile court. I saw that the MoE has lots of Thai's with Ed degrees from abroad. The manager I talked to there had an Ed.D from a British university.

3) People who come here and want to change Thailand not knowing that there are reasons for why education is implemented the way it is

4) People who don't realise that it is not possible to change in one place without getting counter-reactions in other places

5) People who don't understand that Thai's have in their mind valid reasons to support their decisions
- Some rich Thai's will not send their kids to international schools because they think that their kids turn into impolite obnoxious little monsters. These rich Thai's are not mindless sheep... They have in their mind very valid reasons. Same with the farmers in the village our daughters mother come from, they are not brain dead sheep. They have reasons

 

The only places where I can see that we disagree is that I want to improve education in Thailand with minimum impact to Thai culture and I see nothing of that in what you write. I would be interested in if you take that and the Thai's opinion into consideration

 

And that I find errors in the article and you don't of course

 

Mikey   

Edited November 9, 2016 by MikeyIdea

[thhMan]

I am a little surprised at the comments, not the opinions, but that there have been more posts that I thought there would be.

I strongly believe that the Thai culture should be held dearly in schools, but its the basic "living skills" like maths and reading and writing that are foundations in every school in every country.

 

On Wednesday, my eldest was in her "scout" uniform (so many uniforms)... so after school, I asked what she did at school and she replied "scouting"...

So I asked her... "so you know how to make a fire.. know how to make a shelter" and so on.... She looked baffled... I am sure she must have thought "<deleted> is Dad on about"

 

Now I am starting to think that this Saturday schooling is not about education as much as it is about giving the kids a place to be, while parents are working (or other)

 

Lastly... Why do schools not teach road safety and why riding a scooter to school is not only illegal, but could kill you or kill some innocent person... (I think its answered in my above comment)

 

I have banned all Thai soapies from being played on Tele... (personally I think it teaches them how to be little selfish aholes and dikhedz in society)

 

So with the very basics in common sense and the ability to search for the truth... they are now starting to have more confidence in what I say, which does oppose some of what teachers say and my kids are now chatter boxes when they ask me questions of "why this is this or that is that"

 

So now, I play YT videos on Origami and my printer paper seems to vanish all the time
I now play YT videos on Magic that stuns them as they see how its done (I want to dismiss the BS lies about ghosts and supernatural events that are a plague on Thai society, much expressed by the Thai soapies)...

 

My missions for my kids is to bring a sense of "free thinking" for my 2 girls, so they can disseminate real from BS, or at the very least question it... Which they are now doing... :)

 

My eldest is not my daughter from Birth and at 4 years old, she entered our home, very disheveled, bordering on savage (I have no other way to describe the intensity of what I first saw when I met her)... and today, she is the top of her class, which I know is great for her, but does not speak well for what the TOP OF CLASS really is, as I would state that she is mid to low in reality....

 

I want to instill common sense in them and not push maths or whatever.... It seems to be working slowly and on a good day, I see both my kids working on projects that they decided to do.... As I think that if they are open to what is possible, then they can be smart enough to find their own direction and not via the indoctrination of what the schools impose on them... I hope to call them my 2 little Anarchists :)

 

I have a daughter in Australia (now just married), who I never had to instill manners, rules etc... except when it came to boys, so I know that the system is wired differently in Australia, but the way its done in Thailand, seems so military, yet with a disdain for rules and logic, that its hard to work it out sometimes....

 

I have no faith in the Thai education system, but I know they have to go through with it and I dont approve of home schooling as it removes social interaction, which is just as important as knowing maths...
My solution is not to teach my kids the basics but to allow them the knowledge that they can disagree with what is said and fact find their own truths... My greatest achievement is that they now are not afraid of the hocus pocus and ghosts.... My missus still does believe in it.... I think my girls will be teaching Mom some truths soon :)

 

AT the very least.. I hope Maths, Science and English begin improving for my girls.... They now have their own laptop which is just for Googling and they have their tablets and smartphones for their social interactions... and lastly, I buy them their own Printer Paper now :)

Edited November 11, 2016 by thhMan