Petition to deny presidency to Trump

[CaptHaddock]

There is currently a petition at the following url calling on electors of the Electoral College to cast their vote for Hillary Clinton even if their state was won by Trump.  Such electors, known as "faithless electors," would nevertheless determine the outcome of the election since such "faithless" votes are not in violation of the Constitution.  While 24 of the states do prohibit breaking faith in this way most sanctions are only small fines, but their votes are nevertheless counted.  Apparently, no faithless elector has ever been prosecuted for such a vote, although that could be different this time.

 

<<<< Link to petition removed >>>>

 

At this writing the petition has over 2 million signers.

 

Is such a proposal undemocratic?  Well, only if you feel that the Electoral College has greater moral legitimacy than the popular vote.   This is a way effectively to abolish the undemocratic Electoral College if only for this election.

 

Would such a step be a deep break with election tradition in the US?  Perhaps not so deep a break as when the Supreme Court intervened to stop the legally conducted Forida recount in 2000 which was the sole responsibility of the State of Florida, not the federal government.  That decision by the majorkty Republican Court stole the election for Bush.

 

Nor is it unconstitutional since only the Electoral College, and no other body, is authorized to elect the president. 

[lungbing]

If you want another civil war.....

[Strange]

36 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

Is such a proposal undemocratic?  Well, only if you feel that the Electoral College has greater moral legitimacy than the popular vote.

 

Well, its allowing states their own voice per say, and not allowing largely populated staunch leaning states to constantly steal the election. 

 

39 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

Would such a step be a deep break with election tradition in the US?

 

Well yeah. Why does Hillary get a free pass? You don't even know whats going to happen in the future with Trump.

 

40 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

Perhaps not so deep a break as when the Supreme Court intervened to stop the legally conducted Forida recount in 2000 which was the sole responsibility of the State of Florida, not the federal government.  That decision by the majorkty Republican Court stole the election for Bush.

 

They didn't change the vote count. Florida straddles 2 time zones in the panhandle. Nobody stole anything bush was up by like 1500 votes. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_election_recount

 

Anyway kinda sissy deal you got going on here but its up to you. 

[Strange]

47 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

At this writing the petition has over 2 million signers.

 

Too lazy but does it allow you to know in what state the signers hail from? 

[CaptHaddock]

Consider it a call for the provisional abolition of the undemocratic Electoral College enabling a decision by popular vote only.

[CaptHaddock]

3 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

Too lazy but does it allow you to know in what state the signers hail from? 

 

That count was apparently not correct since the site now shows only a few thousand signers. 

 

But it's a start.

[Strange]

Do you think that's fair? Some states have a smaller population with different values and problems. 

[CaptHaddock]

1 minute ago, Strange said:

Do you think that's fair? Some states have a smaller population with different values and problems. 

 

Therefore they deserve more votes?  If you count one man, one vote, then Hillary won.

[Strange]

Just now, CaptHaddock said:

 

Therefore they deserve more votes?  If you count one man, one vote, then Hillary won.

 

They deserve a voice man, and its surely better than going strictly by the popular vote. The weight of California alone, being staunch democrat, would be a huge voting pool, and thats unfair by anyones standards. 

 

Im not saying the Electoral College is the best way, but its vastly better than a strict Popular Vote. 

 

I honestly didn't even think Trump was gonna win until I turned on the laptop that morning to watch everything live. I had already, in my mind, accepted it. No need to fight it or get all nuts imho

[SimpleChap]

Shows exactly what a bunch of sore losers the elite is when someone announces that he will remove the through, and against all expectations succeeds in that.

Edited November 11, 2016 by SimpleChap

[CaptHaddock]

Just now, Strange said:

 

They deserve a voice man, and its surely better than going strictly by the popular vote. The weight of California alone, being staunch democrat, would be a huge voting pool, and thats unfair by anyones standards. 

 

Im not saying the Electoral College is the best way, but its vastly better than a strict Popular Vote. 

 

I honestly didn't even think Trump was gonna win until I turned on the laptop that morning to watch everything live. I had already, in my mind, accepted it. No need to fight it or get all nuts imho

 

So fine, you don't believe in democracy.  Many of the rest of us still do. 

 

The last time they stole the election from the people we got two wars and countless deaths with a price tag of up to $3 Trillion dollars.  It's hard to imagine how much damage Trump will do.  But he isn't elected until Dec. 19 and he can still be stopped.  That is the procedure under the Constitution.

[SimpleChap]

1 minute ago, CaptHaddock said:

 

So fine, you don't believe in democracy.  Many of the rest of us still do. 

 

The last time they stole the election from the people we got two wars and countless deaths with a price tag of up to $3 Trillion dollars.  It's hard to imagine how much damage Trump will do.  But he isn't elected until Dec. 19 and he can still be stopped.  That is the procedure under the Constitution.

 

Democracy is exactly what was elected on 8 November.

[tonray]

I despise Trump as a person but am hopeful that our system will not allow him (or Hilary had she won for that matter) to do much damage. I am actually hopeful that once he gets the daily security briefings and talks to real economists, he will realize that he simply cannot deliver revolutionary changes and instead works on making the system better incrementally, for all our sake. But, he won and these whiners have no place in my world.

[Strange]

1 minute ago, CaptHaddock said:

So fine, you don't believe in democracy.  Many of the rest of us still do. 

 

The last time they stole the election from the people we got two wars and countless deaths with a price tag of up to $3 Trillion dollars.  It's hard to imagine how much damage Trump will do.  But he isn't elected until Dec. 19 and he can still be stopped.  That is the procedure under the Constitution.

 

I believe our Federalist Democracy, witch is a union of many states under 1 flag, OUR Democracy. 

 

Nobody stole anything and infact there was ALOT of democrat nonsense mucking up the waters at the time as well. Read that wiki page. 

 

I mean really going by the popular vote, we might as well call ourselves California instead of the USA. 

[CaptHaddock]

2 minutes ago, tonray said:

I despise Trump as a person but am hopeful that our system will not allow him (or Hilary had she won for that matter) to do much damage. I am actually hopeful that once he gets the daily security briefings and talks to real economists, he will realize that he simply cannot deliver revolutionary changes and instead works on making the system better incrementally, for all our sake. But, he won and these whiners have no place in my world.

 

The system didn't prevent Bush from starting two illegal wars out of which Cheney's old company made billions in no-bid contracts.

 

 

[CaptHaddock]

Count petitioners on change.org is now 2.2 million.  Apparently, the lower number was not a correction, but an error.

[tonray]

1 minute ago, CaptHaddock said:

 

The system didn't prevent Bush from starting two illegal wars out of which Cheney's old company made billions in no-bid contracts.

 

 

I think unfortunately , Mrs Clinton was a greater risk at destabilizing the world as her tenure as Sec. of State and Senator voting for these wars. We have a guy who talks about disengaging somewhat vs a woman who has a proven history of maintaining the status quo keeping the world in the sad state it is in. Let's give the guy a chance. As I said I despise him but I also thank him for ridding us of Hilary.

[KhunBENQ]

As an outside observer I am stunned by this antique election system.

The times of the pony express are over.

Voting on a Tuesday to fit farmers/churchgoers.

Registration process differing from state to state.

Low participation in such an important election.

Less votes wins you the presidency.

 

One man/woman, one vote!

 

I bet Trump won't press an election reform.

Edited November 11, 2016 by KhunBENQ

[Strange]

12 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

The system didn't prevent Bush from starting two illegal wars out of which Cheney's old company made billions in no-bid contracts.

 

Nobody is taking away from that with Trump. Bush was Bush. 

 

6 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

Count petitioners on change.org is now 2.2 million.  Apparently, the lower number was not a correction, but an error.

 

Still pocket change and really interested to know what states hold all these people. 

[Dtrump]

5 minutes ago, KhunBENQ said:

As an outside observer I am stunned by this antique election system.

The times of the pony express are over.

Voting on a Tuesday to fit farmers/churchgoers.

Registration process differing from state to state.

Low participation in such an important election.

Less votes wins you the presidency.

 

One man/woman, one vote!

 

I bet Trump won't press an election reform.

I hear you.  But better than some countries where you can't even vote for your leader.  Some party who is in power gets to pick the leader and not the people.  At least the electoral system is connected to the people choosing a leader eh?

[Strange]

1 minute ago, Dtrump said:

I hear you.  But better than some countries where you can't even vote for your leader.  Some party who is in power gets to pick the leader and not the people.  At least the electoral system is connected to the people choosing a leader eh?

 

Not only that, but in a way that gives power to areas that barely get any attention from anyone. 

[Dtrump]

The only reason anyone complains about the electoral system is when they lose.  I've never heard a winner complain.  Have you?

[Strange]

9 minutes ago, KhunBENQ said:

As an outside observer I am stunned by this antique election system.

 

Think about it, the USA is huge, many different people and regions with different problems and values. 

 

Honestly, going by popular vote, California, Illinois, New York, etc, would control every election. 

 

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population

 

Not arguing Trump or Clinton here, just the Electoral College vs Popular Vote deal as it pertains to the USA and its Federalist Democracy. 

[CaptHaddock]

Just now, KhunBENQ said:

As an outside observer I am stunned by this antique election system.

The times of the pony express are over.

Voting on a Tuesday to fit farmers/churchgoers.

Less votes wins you the presidency.

 

One man/woman, one vote!

 

I bet Trump won't press an election reform.

 

Few people know the history or purpose of the Electoral College.

 

At the time of the Constitution in 1787, the agrarian South, whose wealth depended on slavery, hestitated to enter the federal union the government of which the more popuous, industrializing North could be expected to win.  The Southerners also knew that the North was not sympathetic to slavery and might eventually threaten it.  So they demanded and got provisions designed to insure the South over-representation in the Congress.  One provision is the US Senate in which each state is represented equally by two senators no matter how small its population.  The other provision concerned how to apportion members of the House of Representatives to the States according to population.  The South wanted to count slaves as population even though legally they were mere chattel property, not citizens and having no rights of citizens, certainly not the right to vote.   The "solution" to that problem was to count each black slave as three fifths of a citizen, the infamous Three Fifths Compromise.  This measure allocated far more Congressmen to the South than their numbers of actual citizens would entitle them, an advantage which they used to maintain slavery up until 1860.

 

The problem remained of how to enable the less populous South to control the election of the president in a democracy the basis of which was and is "one man, one vote."  The solution was to introduce the Electoral College allocating "electoral votes" to the states according to the total of senators and congressmen each state had in Congress, numbers that we can see were unfairly jiggered.  Voila!  The undemocratic Electoral College was born.

 

From time to the time the unfairness of the EC appers nakedly as in the current election when the winner is not the candidate with the most votes but the candidate with the most "electoral votes."  A travesty and one that can never be fixed since it is now inconceivable that the Constitution will again be amended since it requires two thirds of both houses of Congress and three quarters of the states.

 

But the EC can be abollshed temporarily, as proposed, by calling on the electors to vote their consciences and make Hillary the President.  It's a loophole, but there is no way it can be changed according to the Constitution.

[metisdead]

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