Foreigner married to Thai - laws regarding home ownership

[sdultra]

I have done my research but there seems to be conflicting answers.

I am from the USA and my wife is Thai. We are considering buying a house/villa and I can't seem to get a straight answer on the legal issues.

Also since we are currently living in the US what are the chances and/or issues with securing a mortgage?

If anyone has first hand knowledge of this type of situation I would really appreciate any guidance you can provide. 

 

Thanks

Edited November 11, 2016 by sdultra

[derator01]

Let's move this over to the Real Estate forum.  A link will be left in the Phuket forum also.  Good luck!

 

Topic Moved

[madmax2]

Only Thai nationals/citizens can own land in Thailand, most banks are not really interested in lending money to foreigners, so your wife would probably have to apply for a mortgage

Foreigners can own the improvements/ infrastructure  (house etc) on the land but if you require a mortgage to build on your own land these would probably need to be in your wife's name as well to get the  mortgage approved  

[trogers]

And being in your Thai wife's name means all of it belongs to her.

No 50/50 split should the relationship goes sour.

[craigt3365]

15 minutes ago, trogers said:

And being in your Thai wife's name means all of it belongs to her.

No 50/50 split should the relationship goes sour.

A friend of a friend owned some 5 condos.  When they split, it was 50/50.

[trogers]

55 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

A friend of a friend owned some 5 condos.  When they split, it was 50/50.

 

That's because foreigners can own condos, but not land.

[craigt3365]

1 minute ago, trogers said:

 

That's because foreigners can own condos, but not land.

These condos were in her name.  Cheaper price if bought under the Thai allotment.  I have to say, I was shocked he got anything!

[trogers]

15 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

These condos were in her name.  Cheaper price if bought under the Thai allotment.  I have to say, I was shocked he got anything!

 

Even if in her name, because her foreigner husband need not sign a disclaimer to any ownership interest when the condos were transferred to her name. Unlike acquisition of landed properties.

[craigt3365]

1 minute ago, trogers said:

 

Even if in her name, because her foreigner husband need not sign a disclaimer to any ownership interest when the condos were transferred to her name. Unlike acquisition of landed properties.

Have you ever seen a foreigner get money from a landed property in a divorce?

[trogers]

15 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Have you ever seen a foreigner get money from a landed property in a divorce?

 

Not in my experience. But the recent case where a Japanese man attempted to shoot his ex-thai wife dead over a court ruling in favour of his ex-wife over house and car is an eye opener.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think the issue of land ownership in a Thai-farang divorce depends on whether the land was acquired BEFORE or AFTER the marriage.

 

If the land is acquired AFTER the marriage, then the Thai family law provisions that say all marital property (with a few exceptions) is to be divided 50-50 would apply.

 

However, if the land was acquired BEFORE the marriage, then generally it would be considered as the sole property of the original owner and NOT be considered marital property.

 

The rights to marital property under Thai family law are a different, separate  issue from the restrictions of foreign ownership of land. In cases where a foreigner gets entitlement to land thru a divorce or spouse's death, typically, they are required to sell it within 6 months to a year in order to avoid the land ownership ban.

 

But that doesn't mean they're not entitled to a share of the land itself through a divorce proceeding, and to keep the value of their share of the property when it is eventually sold.

 

 

[blackcab]

9 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I think the issue of land ownership in a Thai-farang divorce depends on whether the land was acquired BEFORE or AFTER the marriage.

 

If the land is acquired AFTER the marriage, then the Thai family law provisions that say all marital property (with a few exceptions) is to be divided 50-50 would apply.

 

However, if the land was acquired BEFORE the marriage, then generally it would be considered as the sole property of the original owner and NOT be considered marital property.

 

The rights to marital property under Thai family law are a different, separate  issue from the restrictions of foreign ownership of land. In cases where a foreigner gets entitlement to land thru a divorce or spouse's death, typically, they are required to sell it within 6 months to a year in order to avoid the land ownership ban.

 

But that doesn't mean they're not entitled to a share of the land itself through a divorce proceeding, and to keep the value of their share of the property when it is eventually sold.

 

I agree. I think that is a very fair assessment of the legal situation.

 

The practical situation could be different however. If the house is put up for sale and the ex-wife doesn't want it to be sold, then it's going to be difficult to physically get the money.

 

Of course it depends on the property itself. A desirable property in a good location might sell. A farang mansion built next to her family's land will never sell.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Indeed, the "law" in Thailand and practical reality often seem to be distant strangers here in Thailand.

 

However, just for the record, there have been past posts here in the forum by members who have had just this situation occur -- acquiring marital property in the event of divorce or the death of the Thai spouse. So it definitely CAN happen.

 

[elgordo38]

6 hours ago, trogers said:

And being in your Thai wife's name means all of it belongs to her.

No 50/50 split should the relationship goes sour.

Yes a change in location could quickly bring out a change of thinking. After moving here if you see $$$$ signs in her eyes your in trouble. 

[catman20]

7 hours ago, trogers said:

And being in your Thai wife's name means all of it belongs to her.

No 50/50 split should the relationship goes sour.

when it goes sour!!!!!!!!!!!

[F4UCorsair]

Lend her the money, 'on paper', and take a mortgage over the property for more than it owes you, a condition being you can call for full payment at any time.  When it goes sour, you're in line behind the first mortgagor for your money.

You can call on the mortgage and force a sale.

If she objects to this arrangement, you'll know exactly wwhere you stand.

I'd be renting if I was you.

Edited November 12, 2016 by F4UCorsair

[Toscano]

Unless you want to make a gift to your wife , my advice is to rent or lease a house at least to begin with .  Many kind men come to Thailand full of generocity to their wife and family .  They buy land in her name , build a beautiful and very expensive house .  You are better living together with your Thai wife in your country ;  when wives return to Thailand they revert to being family orientated and influenced .  Living in Thailand for westerners is not as easy as people think and hitherto happy marriages can fall apart .

There are very nice condos that you can own outright in your name , or houses that you can rent or lease .  Keep as much of your capital out of Thailand as you can , give yourself an allowance income .  Many kind men lose everything they have and divorce often doesn't recompense them .

[chiang mai]

6 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Have you ever seen a foreigner get money from a landed property in a divorce?

 

Not this again!

 

Yes, two in fact.

 

Assets acquired during marriage are considered marital property and are split 50/50 on divorce, not that different from many other countries.

 

[stgrhe]

sdultra

 

I can't help you with the morgage part. However, if you are planning to buy land and build a house in Bangkok Metropolitan area Citi Bank could perhaps give you one.

 

In Thailand everything you acquire being married, and you are married, is jointly owned. That is the law whatever others may have written, and this includes land, which means you own half of the value of the land.

 

Except for some very special circumstances, foreign nationals can not be registered as owner of the land. You can, however, get a possessory right on the land through either

 

1) land lease

2) usufruct

3) superficies

4) habitation

 

Because you are married to the intended 'land owner', i.e. you wife, you will not have the same protection but you can see these rights as an insurance, which would enable you to continue live on the property should your wife suddenly die.

 

You and your wife should, and this is important, sign your last will and testaments as soon as possible and before you acquire any property in Thailand. I will not go in to any details but recommend you seek advice from a Thai solicitor (lawyer). I recommend Issan Lawyers in Korat. They are very good and have reasonable rates.

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

[Bangkok Barry]

What happens if the Thai wife dies and the house is put up for sale as required, but then it doesn't sell within the period (one year?) allowed?

[Dumbastheycome]

sd .... so  far youhave recieved  some  accurate information....as well as typical sour cynical negativity from failed individuals. 

As important as it is to establishpoints of law I would advise also taking  great care in avoiding association with the like farang.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Dumbastheycome
misspelt an important word.

[Generalchaos]

The house has nothing to do with the land other than it is built on it.

The value of the house can be taken into consideration if things turn sour, it can be divided 5-/50 regarding value etc in case of a divorce, it can even be awarded in a larger percentage to the falang if they are able to prove that they paid for it.

Everything other than the land is up for grabs in a divorce EXCEPT the land.

 

I personally know of a falang married to a Thai who could prove he financed the house build. When they split up the court ordered her to pay him 50% of the house value and also made her pay for and give him the almost new Toyota pick up truck into the bargain.....needless to say she was not expecting that, nor was she too happy about it but she was forced to pay otherwise the court ruled that the property would have to be sold to cover the ruling!

 

Thai law is a lot more fair than we often perceive, providing you have free access to it and someone with extra connections is not paying the puppets. You will be surprised just how much they can give a foreigner. It is certainly a lot less one sided than it was when I came here in 1997.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Generalchaos

[Generalchaos]

7 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

What happens if the Thai wife dies and the house is put up for sale as required, but then it doesn't sell within the period (one year?) allowed?

That is a good question! I worried about this previously as in a small village the family has some influence (i.e. preventing the sale so they can grab it)

I never found the answer, but luckily I have a Thai son and some free advice from a Thai lawyer, I put all the land in my son's name, which then automatically makes the house his as well.

[chiang mai]

An usufruct granted by a Thai to their foreign spouse during marriage is unsafe and can be cancelled upon divorce, I can't speak to superficies and the other possible routes but posters should check first before going those routes.

[Grubster]

8 hours ago, trogers said:

 

That's because foreigners can own condos, but not land.

All things acquired after marriage are 50/50. seen it happen a few times already. And I mean bitter divorces.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

9 minutes ago, Grubster said:

All things acquired after marriage are 50/50. seen it happen a few times already. And I mean bitter divorces.

 

Not "ALL" things. There are a couple exceptions under Thai family law, including IIRC family inheritance proceeds as one of a short list of exceptions.

[Grubster]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Not "ALL" things. There are a couple exceptions under Thai family law, including IIRC family inheritance proceeds as one of a short list of exceptions.

Another thing some worry about is your belongings you had before marriage, like real estate or savings back home. She can't touch it. No prenup needed.

[sandemara]

sdultra: There is so much utter rubbish and misinformed b.s. in this discussion topic.  I don't know where people get their nightmare imaginings from.  The Thai court system is, traditionally, inclined to favour the husband in property and asset settlements. His nationality is not an issue.  As far as land ownership is concerned, you actually have advantages as a US citizen that other less-favoured nationalities do not enjoy when managing businesses, trade, commerce as well as property and other assets acquired in Thailand.  Your major concern will (and should) be deciding what type of property is your best investment and its location. 

Many foreigners fall into the trap of believing a Thai national (often a relative by marriage) has some special insight into property values and prospects for increasing in value.  This is a dangerous myth.  If you take the time to visit, travel extensively to locations you think might be worthwhile, do your research, ask the hard questions (from as many sources as you think is necessary), and due diligence etc, your own common sense will likely be your best guide.  It's not hard to understand or differentiate between sales pitches and reality when you're on site. 

You might even decide to not bother buying, but with the local economy tanking under the military authorities' rule, there are many opportunities to find property bargains.  Family (wife's) pressure about where to buy should be discounted outright until you're thoroughly satisfied. Emotion is not a good basis for financial decisions.

I would also suggest you check first with the US Embassy in Bangkok for a guide to endorsed/approved reputable local legal firms to ensure you receive proper legal advice and assistance. Such companies treasure their status and will want to provide the best service possible to you.  Listings and contact information is available on the Embassy website.  Legal fees are competitive and negotiable as well.

For a more accurate picture of your (foreigner) legal rights and expectations - and a clearer understanding of Thai business and relevant social customs, human relationships (family law etc) as well as common traps unsuspecting foreigners seem to leap into - I would also recommend you check the English-language website for Siam Firm Inter Laws, a Bangkok company that has operated under family ownership for about 40 years with several offices around Thailand.  The website contains a range of plain-language articles addressing issues commonly of vital interest to foreigners considering matters such as you have contributed here, as well as other necessary information.  The article about the Thai-U Amity Agreement (as well as property, business ownership articles) address most of your queries. Good luck.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Grubster, yes, generally speaking, the same rules would apply for both a Thai spouse and a farang spouse in a mixed marriage -- the assets each held prior to marriage would remain separate property in the wake of a divorce -- under Thai family law.

 

The exception would be if either spouse took those previously separate assets and somehow co-mingled them with the spouse's during the marriage.

 

Edited November 12, 2016 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Djw6]

Buy a condo. It's in your name (freehold), and it will always be in your name.

Buy a house. Never in your name. The wife owns it 100%. You split up, you get 0%.

Good luck.