Trump faces hurdles to reinstating waterboarding

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, ClutchClark said:

 

OK. So then it is not actually drowning?

 

If I am an American captured by IS then I know with certainty that my head is going to shortly be separated from my torso.

 

If I am an enemy combatant or terrorist captured by the US then I know that I cannot be killed and I cannot be tortured.

If I am waterboarded then I know that they can not actually drown me...they are required to keep me alive.

That knowledge seems to remove much of the fear involved with the act.

 

Thats just what my though process would be in such circumstances. As I said previously, my self-identity as an American is similar to John McCain's--I am proud that we don't resort to the same base behaviors as our enemies.

But as people who are truly experienced in interrogation techniques like the FBI know that torture yields unreliable results. As Gen. Mattis says, and the FBI concurs, befriending the enemy works much better.  But it doesn't satisfy the desire for vengeance that a lot of the posters here would like to see satisfied. Which is why we shouldn't let the victims of terrorism decide tactics to combat it.

[bubblewrap]

4 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

If I am waterboarded then I know that they can not actually drown me...they are required to keep me alive.

 

Indeed.  But after thirty seconds of waterboarding you'll wish you'd never be born and you will definitely believe that you'll die.

[ClutchClark]

15 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

In fact, our special forces can't prepare for waterboarding. If you had bothered to read the whole thread, you would find that nobody can prepare for it. The question is, does it produce reliable information. And it's obvious that the answer has to be no since people will say anything to make torture stop.

 

Well, as I understand it, they could provide false information and the waterboarding would stop.

The information would then be investigated to determine validity.

If it was determined to be false then the terrorist would have only postponed his waterboarding, not avoided it.

 

Ergo, there is really no long term benefit to lying, only short term. In fact, by providing valid information to start, the waterboarding events would end that much sooner.

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, ClutchClark said:

 

Well, as I understand it, they could provide false information and the waterboarding would stop.

The information would then be investigated to determine validity.

If it was determined to be false then the terrorist would have only postponed his waterboarding, not avoided it.

 

Ergo, there is really no long term benefit to lying, only short term. In fact, by providing valid information to start, the waterboarding events would end that much sooner.

And how exactly do the confirm it or not?  Again, you are being influenced by tv and the movies where these kind of questions can be easily resolved.  In the real world, it's a lot, lot messier.

[bubblewrap]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

As Gen. Mattis says, and the FBI concurs, befriending the enemy works much better.  

 

Sitting in a safe space, holding hands and singing Kumbaya, My Lord, works much better. 

[bubblewrap]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

In the real world, it's a lot, lot messier.

 

The messier the better.

[ClutchClark]

5 minutes ago, bubblewrap said:

 

Indeed.  But after thirty seconds of waterboarding you'll wish you'd never be born and you will definitely believe that you'll die.

 

I have suffered wilderness injuries before when I knew that medical assistance was over a day away. I have reset my own compound fractures. It hurts like hell but the way you brace yourself is with the knowledge that the excruciating pain is for a limited period of time.

 

I have not been waterboarded. I don't know if the same would apply. Any opinion you and I have on it is only hypothetical.

Personally, I don't consider it to be nearly so bad as having fingernails pulled out or fingers cut off or any number of genuine forms of torture. 

Since I don't have expertise in this field, I look to John McCain's position as one I would respect.

Edited November 23, 2016 by ClutchClark

[bubblewrap]

4 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

Ergo, there is really no long term benefit to lying, only short term. In fact, by providing valid information to start, the waterboarding events would end that much sooner.

 

Very clever tonight, ClutchClark.

[bubblewrap]

25 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

And you don't really read posts, what of it?

The information is easily available, and even pointed out on this topic.

There was nothing said about your tea time nonsense.

 

What do you think, Morch?  You're flip flopping all over the gaff.  Think for yourself for once and offer your own thoughts and considerations.  Come on.

[ClutchClark]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

And how exactly do the confirm it or not?  Again, you are being influenced by tv and the movies where these kind of questions can be easily resolved.  In the real world, it's a lot, lot messier.

 

I really don't watch much TV or movies so I am not basing it on such things. That is just a convenient means for you to belittle my position. 

 

How is the information confirmed? The intel would be examined by experts who have knowledge of persons named and other corroborating evidence. Perhaps deadlines provided will have passed without the intel having occurred. 

 

Waterboarding, based on what I am learning here, is that it is not actually drowning a person. It is just providing a frightening scenario. It is uncomfortable but does not result in long term damage or disfigurement or death. It appears rather benign compared to actual torture that involves extreme physical harm. It sounds like I would rather be tortured by Americans than by ISIS. 

[bubblewrap]

Anyone notice that little rat who was caught as an accomplice to the Bataclan attack, sitting it out in a French jail keeping schtum. 

 

The French are weak and haven't exerted any pressure on this weasel faced little turd.  All the while his accomplices go about their business.

 

Think about it.

[ClutchClark]

34 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

So why do ISIS dress their victims in orange overalls before beheading them? They just like the colour? Orange is the new black?

 

BTW, please quote my entire post not just parts of it! Thanks!

 

Grouse,

 

I appear to have offended you at some point which was never my intention. 

 

I will try and remember to quote your entire posts in the future. I hope that makes you feel better.

 

My opinion is that ISIS would simply use some other excuse for their hatred of the US if they could not look to Gitmo.

I don't think ISIS would be our friend in much any circumstance and the motivational hatred their recruits have of us would have found some other pathway for justification.

 

You are free to quote just those parts you wish to respond to. I am easy.

[Morch]

29 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

As noted above, interrogators were very impressed that Khalid Mohammed held out for 2 minutes!  Maybe with preparation some of our troops could hold out for 3.

 

I'm pretty sure you don't get it. Not about how many minutes you can go at a time. 

[ilostmypassword]

7 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

I really don't watch much TV or movies so I am not basing it on such things. That is just a convenient means for you to belittle my position. 

 

How is the information confirmed? The intel would be examined by experts who have knowledge of persons named and other corroborating evidence. Perhaps deadlines provided will have passed without the intel having occurred. 

 

Waterboarding, based on what I am learning here, is that it is not actually drowning a person. It is just providing a frightening scenario. It is uncomfortable but does not result in long term damage or disfigurement or death. It appears rather benign compared to actual torture that involves extreme physical harm. It sounds like I would rather be tortured by Americans than by ISIS. 

ah...the appeal to "experts".  When you are being waterboarded you are being drowned.  It doesn't usually go to its conclusion but if it isn't stopped you will die. As for damage from waterboarding, why not use the internet and look it up?

[melvinmelvin]

51 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

So why do ISIS dress their victims in orange overalls before beheading them? They just like the colour? Orange is the new black?

 

BTW, please quote my entire post not just parts of it! Thanks!

 

red blood on orange clothing makes a distinct and nice contrast

[Morch]

33 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

OK. So then it is not actually drowning?

 

If I am an American captured by IS then I know with certainty that my head is going to shortly be separated from my torso.

 

If I am an enemy combatant or terrorist captured by the US then I know that I cannot be killed and I cannot be tortured.

If I am waterboarded then I know that they can not actually drown me...they are required to keep me alive.

That knowledge seems to remove much of the fear involved with the act.

 

Thats just what my though process would be in such circumstances. As I said previously, my self-identity as an American is similar to John McCain's--I am proud that we don't resort to the same base behaviors as our enemies.

 

How is it "not actually" drowning? How do you imagine the experience to be different? Just because the whole body is not underwater? That's a technicality. You could drown someone by pushing his had down the bog. Same result.

 

If you are captured by anyone you know zilch and you can be sure of less. You have no assurances whatsoever, because all your input comes from your interrogators. People are extremely susceptible to pressure under such circumstances. The assumption that everyday logical thinking applies is easily shattered.

 

And even if you are sure, I mean really sure, they are not allowed to kill you - when that water fills your lungs you stop thinking rationally. There are several clips demonstrating waterboarding on actual willing subjects. I'd advise looking them up, and paying attention to how the subjects describe the experience. And that's under non threatening conditions.

 

You have no idea how your thought process would work under such situations. If you were to undergo specific training related to dealing with such interrogations you could, possibly, handle it a wee bit better. Perhaps waste more time before reaching a breaking point. Everyone breaks eventually.

[ClutchClark]

13 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

ah...the appeal to "experts".  When you are being waterboarded you are being drowned.  It doesn't usually go to its conclusion but if it isn't stopped you will die. As for damage from waterboarding, why not use the internet and look it up?

 

You have a problem with appealing to experts?

 

Fascinating. I would have ended further conversing with you long ago had I known that.

Yes, I look to experts all the time. I look to experts in the field of finance before I invest in a position. I look to experts in agriculture before I determine what seed I am going to plant. I look to experts on nutrition when I plan my diet. I look to experts every day for just about everything that effects my life.

 

IMO, only a fool would not.

[Morch]

38 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

Well, as I understand it, they could provide false information and the waterboarding would stop.

The information would then be investigated to determine validity.

If it was determined to be false then the terrorist would have only postponed his waterboarding, not avoided it.

 

Ergo, there is really no long term benefit to lying, only short term. In fact, by providing valid information to start, the waterboarding events would end that much sooner.

 

Most people interrogated by such means would not think long term, though. Any respite will do. That's one of the issues with the information extracted. What some of the training involved in dealing with this does is teach how to ration information, mental resources and pain thresholds. But again, as the saying goes, everyone got a plan until they get punched in the face.

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, bubblewrap said:

 

Sitting in a safe space, holding hands and singing Kumbaya, My Lord, works much better. 

 

Yeah, your opinion is much more astute than Mattis's. Carry on.

[ClutchClark]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

How is it "not actually" drowning? How do you imagine the experience to be different? Just because the whole body is not underwater? That's a technicality. You could drown someone by pushing his had down the bog. Same result.

 

If you are captured by anyone you know zilch and you can be sure of less. You have no assurances whatsoever, because all your input comes from your interrogators. People are extremely susceptible to pressure under such circumstances. The assumption that everyday logical thinking applies is easily shattered.

 

And even if you are sure, I mean really sure, they are not allowed to kill you - when that water fills your lungs you stop thinking rationally. There are several clips demonstrating waterboarding on actual willing subjects. I'd advise looking them up, and paying attention to how the subjects describe the experience. And that's under non threatening conditions.

 

You have no idea how your thought process would work under such situations. If you were to undergo specific training related to dealing with such interrogations you could, possibly, handle it a wee bit better. Perhaps waste more time before reaching a breaking point. Everyone breaks eventually.

 

I don't disagree with anything you have said here except your opinions of me personally since you do not know me.

 

The US appears to have the position that we do not kill people by drowning. We waterboard people which you describe as being the same thing as drowning EXCEPT that the person lives.

 

If that is the case then waterboarding is a specific period of extreme discomfort that ends before death occurs. I have been in situations which offer extreme discomfort and what gets me through is knowing there is an end to it...

 

It is incorrect to say I know zilch about my captors if the US has a policy to not kill or torture its prisoners then I know quite a lot. I know that I am not going to die and that I am not going to be physically maimed for life.

 

I appreciate your insights into waterboarding and your various other insights. At this point we are probably just talking in circles. Have a good one.

Edited November 23, 2016 by ClutchClark

[Morch]

35 minutes ago, bubblewrap said:

 

What do you think, Morch?  You're flip flopping all over the gaff.  Think for yourself for once and offer your own thoughts and considerations.  Come on.

 

I think argumentative, opinionated posters who just joined the forum are almost always reincarnated trolls.

[Grouse]

46 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Only the Allies DID torture prisoners during WW2 - although we have been brainwashed otherwise. Torture has been used in every war, but usually governments are not stupid enough to talk about it publicly.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223831/How-Britain-tortured-Nazi-PoWs-The-horrifying-interrogation-methods-belie-proud-boast-fought-clean-war.html

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/05/13/how-torture-helped-win-wwii.html

 

47 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Only the Allies DID torture prisoners during WW2 - although we have been brainwashed otherwise. Torture has been used in every war, but usually governments are not stupid enough to talk about it publicly.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223831/How-Britain-tortured-Nazi-PoWs-The-horrifying-interrogation-methods-belie-proud-boast-fought-clean-war.html

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/05/13/how-torture-helped-win-wwii.html

 

I can not access the Daily Mail, but I'm more inclined to believe my father than the gutter press.

 

It is absolutely true that all German agents were turned. However this was achieved by much smarter techniques than physical torture.

 

What goes on at the front line is a different matter and I'm sure all kinds of atrocities were committed by troops on both sides.

 

Churchill was ruthless and actually favoured gassing the Germans! Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed.

 

Ultra was kept top secret for decades but is now in the public domain. No evidence of state sponsored torture has come to light unlike the excesses of American forces and the CIA all around the world.

 

One reason for NOT abusing enemy troops is that one does not want that treatment for ones own POWs.

[Ulysses G.]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

In fact, our special forces can't prepare for waterboarding. 

 

Knowing how it feels and knowing that one will not die is a lot better preparation than having no idea. It is supposed to scare one into confessing as well as being very uncomfortable.

[melvinmelvin]

this exchange of views is getting a bit unreal

 

whats worst? waterboarding? extracting nails? electrocuting balls? or what the <deleted>?

whats most effective re extracting relevant information?

 

point is, its all illegal, its gross invation of basic human rights

 

US condones dishing out unjust to bunches of muslims in Cuba, kept there for years without law and justice

give me a break;

Bush, the youngest one, thought this was brilliant, he probably envisaged Cuba as the end of his axis of evil

Obama, promised to make an end to it, he didn't

POTUS elect thinks waterboarding (and worse) is brilliant, fancies reinforcing it

 

 

[ClutchClark]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

One reason for NOT abusing enemy troops is that one does not want that treatment for ones own POWs.

 

Does ISIS take POW's ?

[Morch]

33 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

I really don't watch much TV or movies so I am not basing it on such things. That is just a convenient means for you to belittle my position. 

 

How is the information confirmed? The intel would be examined by experts who have knowledge of persons named and other corroborating evidence. Perhaps deadlines provided will have passed without the intel having occurred. 

 

Waterboarding, based on what I am learning here, is that it is not actually drowning a person. It is just providing a frightening scenario. It is uncomfortable but does not result in long term damage or disfigurement or death. It appears rather benign compared to actual torture that involves extreme physical harm. It sounds like I would rather be tortured by Americans than by ISIS. 

 

Waterboarding, based on what I am learning here, is that it is not actually drowning a person. It is just providing a frightening scenario. It is uncomfortable but does not result in long term damage or disfigurement or death. It appears rather benign compared to actual torture that involves extreme physical harm. It sounds like I would rather be tortured by Americans than by ISIS. 

 

It's bringing a person as close as possible to drowning. Wouldn't be much point in causing death if the purpose is getting information. It is not "just a frightening" experience, but quite painful. There could be long term damage, and death is a possibility if things get out of hand, or is the processes is repeated over and over again.

 

The comparisons to other forms of torture are rather academic, I think, from the receiving end.

[ClutchClark]

6 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Knowing how it feels and knowing that one will not die is a lot better preparation than having no idea. It is supposed to scare one into confessing as well as being very uncomfortable.

 

Thanks for better explaining this than I could.

 

With waterboarding, the reason for providing intel is to stop the discomfort only since the fear your captor will  kill you is not part of the equation. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by ClutchClark

[ClutchClark]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

The comparisons to other forms of torture are rather academic, I think, from the receiving end.

 

This is where I would disagree.

 

I would far prefer to be waterboarded than have bones broken, teeth pulled, fingers cut off, etc..

 

 

[Ulysses G.]

17 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

 

I can not access the Daily Mail, but I'm more inclined to believe my father than the gutter press.

 

 

 I have nothing against your father, but it is a known fact that the Allies tortured prisoners during WW2 and there is plenty of evidence besides the Daily Mail.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Cage

 

https://historyimages.blogspot.com/2012/01/shocking-american-torture-of-german.html

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

I don't disagree with anything you have said here except your opinions of me personally since you do not know me.

 

The US appears to have the position that we do not kill people by drowning. We waterboard people which you describe as being the same thing as drowning EXCEPT that the person lives.

 

If that is the case then waterboarding is a specific period of extreme discomfort that ends before death occurs. I have been in situations which offer extreme discomfort and what gets me through is knowing there is an end to it...

 

It is incorrect to say I know zilch about my captors if the US has a policy to not kill or torture its prisoners then I know quite a lot. I know that I am not going to die and that I am not going to be physically maimed for life.

 

I appreciate your insights into waterboarding and your various other insights. At this point we are probably just talking in circles. Have a good one.

 

It is not a question of knowing you. It's a matter of knowing that everyone got a breaking point, and that most people do not experience anything remotely resembling such interrogations. There is usually no reference point that can be applied, and no way to accurately gauge the situation.

 

A subject can know things going into interrogation. But given that he is totally isolated makes interrogators the only available source of information. Shaking up a subject's initial set of beliefs is not that complicated. It is a most powerful tool. Time, for example, exists at their discretion. Light cycles, food, drugs - easy to mess.

 

Bottom line is room 101. Probably the best piece relating to this topic.