Seeking recommendations/advice on ISP Packages and/or Modem/Router upgrades

[gdhm]

Got a phone call form 3BB agent advising they need a 24 hours delay to Fibre package installation as engineer/installer had to go to hospital.

Will now come noon tomorrow (27th)

[Pib]

Remind me....what speed plan did you decide to sign up for?    200/50 fibre, 50/10 VDSL, etc.

[gdhm]

41 minutes ago, Pib said:

Remind me....what speed plan did you decide to sign up for?    200/50 fibre, 50/10 VDSL, etc.

 

3BB  FTTx 200/50 Fibre   ฿1,200 +7 % VAT (฿1,284)

[gdhm]

Hi all, Well Engineer/installer (and wife/girlfriend) came at 9:20am after saying they would be here 12 noon. I was still in bed. My wife greeted them and I went downstairs about 5 mins later to find they had gone to run the cables along the roads and to come back later.  I had assumed that was what they'd do until noon anyway.  I do not understand exchanges and boxes but it appears they had to run fibre cable from one main box to a nearer closer one to our home (about 1km to 1.5 km I would guess. and then run for the second box about 0.5 km to our home. I have no idea what effect these long runs of fibre and more than one box have on speeds but I assuming negative.

 

We were in agreement where I thought best to run the cable to the house upper side wall but as they did not have a drill wished chose to fix their cable grip hook to bottom of our upper window's outside security grill (which I had no problem with as very close to where they'd have needed to drill fixture to wall).  Why do workers so often not have adequate necessary required tools for their own trades in this country? I am always being asked for tools, drills screws and even ladders sometimes etc

The problem came when they wanted to get wire into house. He wanted to come in through the room's small air con hole and run the cable down the inside wall. I did not want that. I wanted the cable to run down the side of house  outer wall (could be tucked all the way behind the Aircon's outside trunking to the outer fan unit. and half wall down that drill through the wall which would come out behind where my PC and monitor are. Although I have a drill I do not possess a bit that is long enough to go through a 10 cm plus render house wall). My wife for some reason always seems to side with what workers want and not what I say is reasonable. I asked her to explain that a black fibre cable running down from the air con in the room would look ugly whereas running on the outside and through a drill hole would be invisible both sides. The man asked if I had a drill. Unfortunately, although I do have  a drill I do not possess a bit that is long enough to go through a 10 cm plus render house wall. I MUST buy a 15cm or so Masonry Drill, so I am ready the next time a worker does not have a drill or suitable bit with them. (It will be in my best interests to invest in one.).

 

Luckily the installer seemed sympathetic, or willing to please, because he said he could do that but would need to come back tomorrow.  I was 100% OK with that.  Before he went he hooked up the GPON UNIT outside and set my User name and password (both of which they asked me to decide upon). He seemed satisfied the Unit was working OK (he had already tested the cable for connection earlier using some tester and said to me OK).

I asked what speeds were achieved for others who he had fitted up the 200Mb/50Mb package.  He said he had no idea.  Sounds like he fits everything up, makes sure it working but does not do his own speed tests to check satisfactory. I will try to do that tomorrow BEFORE he goes if I can, in case awful or so bad that not acceptable without 3BB investigating problem.

 

The GPON Unit box said it was a FiberHome GPON Optical Network Unit (AN5506-04-GF). I am not sure if the suffix of my unit ends with a G or F

I quickly found a link for an English User Manual online  http://flytec.com.py/download/files/AN5506-04F-manual.pdf

It appears the Version A (no idea what mine is) has been around since June 2010. Hope it is up to recent normal specs and capable of dealing with speeds of 200Mb/50Mb (even if not attained by my connection in the "Real World"). I note the FiberHome Technologies Group (which I have never heard of, has been operating since 1974 (Chinese)

 

 

Will provide further update on speeds, hopefully tomorrow

[Pib]

The l....o.....n.......g run of the fiber will have very little impact on signal strength as fiber optics has very low attenuation loss.

 

Where you say the tech hooked up the GPON ONT (fancy name for optical router), what do you mean he hooked it up "outside."   A router in meant to be inside protected from the elements....can't be left out in the rain/wind/bugs/critters.  Where did they plug it up for electrical power?  You want the router close & centralized to where you computers/devices are....preaching to the choir I know since they are coming back tomorrow to finish the job.

 

The day before my the team arrived to install my AIS Fibre, I had pre-drilled a hole where I wanted it to come through the house as I figured they would try to use an existing hole in a less than desirable location, have a funky drill and bit to make a rough hole, or just not have the necessary tools.   The team were so happy to have a predrilled hole...a hole exactly where I wanted it. 

[RedCardinal]

On 12/25/2016 at 2:54 PM, Pib said:

I took at look in the Testmy.net database of the other testing your did to Singapore and a few to LA on the True 100/30 plan based on the User number in your above result and the speeds were low to Singapore considering you are on a 100Mb plan...looks like the fastest speed you got to Singapore was 17.25Mb at around 10am this morning.....or at least low in comparison to my AIS 50/10 plan which will pull in the 45 to 50Mb ballpark pretty much 24/7 in testmy.net testing to Singapore.

The problem there is that testmy.net doesn't always get the ISP right.  My router load balances, and the traffic could be going over the True network but reported as AIS on Testmy.  Sadly TestMy don't show the WAN IP doing the test (bad on their part), so you wont always know yourself.

[Pib]

I can see how that could happen with someone using two ISPs are the same time, but I feel pretty safe in saying the great majority of folks only use one home internet provider.

 

Just for those listening in, the three links below show testmy.net results for True, AIS, and 3BB.  Now it don't say what plan speed is being used like the person is on a 200/50 plan compared to a 50/10 plan but many cases where you see the same person  running a series of tests to multiple locations and said he get 125Mb to Singapore you can feel sure he's on a plan faster than 100Mb...and if he was a 3BB or AIS customer he is most like on their 200Mb plan.  Or he gets right at 50Mb or just below to Singapore he's probably on a 50Mb plan.

 

With that in mind and seeing he has also done other tests to other locations lie LA, London, etc., it would give you good feel of what international speed to various location you can expect.    You can tell if its the same person during that testing session if the ConnectID number is the same.  Click a ConnectID number and it will then only show that person's test results during that session of testmy.net use.

 

You can also tell if an Android or Apple device was detected as the end device versus a computer.    Nice database.

 

http://testmy.net/host-history/true_internet

 

http://testmy.net/host-history/ais_fibre

 

http://testmy.net/host-history/3bb_broadband

[gdhm]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

 

 

Quote

EXTRACT

Where you say the tech hooked up the GPON ONT (fancy name for optical router), what do you mean he hooked it up "outside."   A router in meant to be inside protected from the elements....can't be left out in the rain/wind/bugs/critters.  Where did they plug it up for electrical power?  You want the router close & centralized to where you computers/devices are....preaching to the choir I know since they are coming back tomorrow to finish the job.

 

 

 

1) Sorry Pib, my incomplete narrative. 

The installer connected it up sitting on top of my outside floor standing Air con Fan unit.  He then used his mobile and I saw him typing in my User name and password (I assume he was sending to 3BB).  After he had finished what he was doing/ setting up he disconnected the equipment and power supply and took it away with him. Had he even thought of leaving there just for the night I would have asked hi to take away just in case condensation or a side wind rain storm came tonight.

(not important now but he plugged the power adapter into the outside AC plug socket I have  which is close to the Air-con outside unit. We use that for our electric lawn mower,

strimmer or whatever).

The fibre cable will come down from inside our patio car port roof just under 2 metres and if he drills the hole there (rather than closer to the ground (another metre) he will pass cable through and the modem will be under  a meter (I have my PC desk backed to the same wall he will be drilling through if he gets it right his cable will come out in the open space where my Monitor sits.  My son's Ethernet cable is a further 15 meters on. He has Cat.5e cable. My 1.5 or 2 metre cable is only Cat .5 . I hope there is a Cat5e cables provided with the GPON Unit otherwise the cable may not cope with above 100Mb (may do so as short). Would be pretty bad if not short Ethernet cable is provided and if so stupid if only Cat 5 when the package mas in 200Mb.

 

On investigating further I think the Unit IS FiberHome AN5506-04-FG not GF (the difference as far as I can tell from the linked pdf I posted for AN5506-04-F  and specs I found from Alibaba and one or two Chinese sites are that F or G seems to have only 10/100Mb ports but as best I can tell AN5506-04-FG has 10/100/1000 ports. HAD BETTER HAVE , otherwise 3BB will have to provide a better unit that does have Gigabit ports or give me back my deposit IF I can buy my own unit that will be suitable and allowed for use with 3BB Fibre.

 

 

2) Thanks for the speed test links in your last post. I'm about to take a look

[Pib]

Since it's a FG model it does have 1000Mb ports; but it's Wifi is only up to 801.11n which means it's a 2.4Ghz band router; no 5Ghz 801.11ac capability.  A 2.4Ghz router "Wifi-wise" can only get in the 50-100Mb data throughpout speed ballpark.   Data throughput not to be confused with the router's Sync/Link speed rating which is much higher...can only be achieved in a laboratory environment with special equipment (i.e., not the real world).    For Wifi, you'll need to have a 5Ghz router to get Wifi data throughput speed above 200Mb.    

 

AIS Fibre does the same thing...provides only a 2.4Ghz primary optical router but includes a second router/access point to plug into the primary router if  you want to use the 5Ghz band.

 

But it sounds like you plan to use pretty much only ethernet connections vs Wifi connections also.  For me, I use Wifi connection for my computers (laptops)...and of course my smartphones, tablet, etc.    Only have a few things hooked up to the optical router upstaris via etherent port like my AIS Playbox (Android box) which can also be set up via Wifi connection if desired, some VOIP adapters,  and an ethernet run to downstairs to feed my Access Point for my downstairs.   But as mentioned, my computers/smartphones/tablet use a Wifi connection.

 

http://www.cantongt.net/quality-8580442-fiberhome-an5506-04-fg-4-ge-2pots-wifi-gpon-sfu

[Pib]

And tomorrow when the tech comes back to finalize the installation/get your acceptance signature, DO NOT  accept until he shows you on his testing laptop or handheld speed testing device that he's getting at least a 200Mb download speed and at least 50Mb upload speed to a local server.  This test would be via ethernet connection; not Wifi.  If those speeds are not reached he needs to fine and fix the problem.  

 

 

 

 

 

[gdhm]

Hi Pib,  Yes I realized not 5Ghz but if I got anything near 100Mb download and few Mb upload would that not be more than adequate for vast majority of needs over Wi-Fi. I appreciate if many uses close by on 2.4Ghz that could cause issues. although out rod has a lot of land other side of land and some on my side.that could. Don't know if Mobiles use 2.4Ghz

 

You are correct about my two primary PCs using Ethernet cable and the TV in the same room and main TV in the main lounge VERY easily can do the same using all 4 ports. All cables 90% hidden Only my wife may be interested in Wi-Fi for downloading updates or pics mainly via Wi-Fi as very slow with what she is using currently.

 

I have been doing some reading up and never realized how critical not tight bending fibre optic cable is. If I understand correctly by going through the wall will cause a 90 Degree angle and maybe more on the inside . This I understand is really pushing and risking loss or speed due to reflection or even minute damage to the fibre. would I be correct in thinking the hole to be drilled is best to be done at a downwards angle to reduce angle and then a gentle loop on the inside (maybe looped around a circular item or rounded dry sponge. Once all in place and I have pushed back the PC high furniture unit the cabling is unlikely to be moved unless I need to access the mes of PC cabling behind the PC.

 

I am not sure where to place the the AN5506-04-FG. My current TP-Link's position is left of Monitor see photo. (sorry look such a mess. I have pulled everything out away from wall so installer can work behind it.

 

If I put the new unit in same place I am worried about the fibre cable bending too much down or up depending where the hole is.

If I put the unit on top of my PC Desk same issue applies as would be if sitting on the desk surface but in truth unit is 23cms wide so would be very hard to fit it flat either side of monitor stand. The new units lights are all facing front which means I cannot put it on wall behind desk as I would not see any lights.

 

My instincts are to place it in same position as my current TP-LInk ADSL Router with ideally the drill hole coming out a little higher with some excess fibre cable loosely looped on a hook with a nylon tie to back left side of PC desk behind the small cupboard. This would allow me to pull PC desk unit out again when needed, take any strain off the cable AND  also help control softer angle of cable from wall hole and into the AN5506-04-FG unit.

 

You probably won't see this Pib before the installer comes tomorrow (probably early) to give me you opinion in time but if you do see it I'd love your views.

 

If I have to sign but am not happy with speeds or he will not wait for me to test on MY PC then I will sign "speeds not allowed to be tested"   or "speeds are not OK as nowhere near package Max speeds". Hopefully I will be happy with speeds in Thailand and those internationally will be acceptable. At end of day I can always complain and they do already have my deposit and 1st month's payment so not a lot I can do if not OK IF he feels unable to improve so I would have to call agent or help desk.

 

Thanks

 

 

[KittenKong]

12 minutes ago, gdhm said:

 

Why do men always have a box of tissues next to their PC?

[Squeegee]

13 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

Why do men always have a box of tissues next to their PC?

 

It's for doing dirty, disgusting things that you must shudder to dream about.

 

It's not because it's where he spends a lot of his time putting coffee rings on the furniture, nor has it anything to do with him ever getting sick. Men only use tissues to do what's in your mind.

[gdhm]

Thanks KittenKong and Squeegee.  You have managed to embarrass me on a Public well read Forum so I thank you both for that especially as most of the Western World already thinks that Expats are only here for one thing.

 

Tissue boxes are all around the house as my wife bought several decorated boxes to hold them in because she liked them.  In the case of the one you see my 12 year old son bought it for my Birthday.  By the way what do you use to blow your noses "back of your hands"? 

 

Before anybody starts on the baby wipes:  1) I am 160 Kg and I sweat a lot.    2) My wife brings me my meals almost everyday to eat at my PC desk and  it's not that uncommon that food does not always stay on my fork. Perfect items to deal with both sweat and cleaning up keyboard, shirt PC desk top are Baby wipes and/or paper tissues. 

 

Had I not moved my PC desk and removed some stuff, you'd have seen a small wooden cutlery holder and a tray with bottle of tomato sauce, vinegar and pepper.

Don't believe me well here they are in their normal positions.

 

Now that should really blow your minds wondering what I use the tomato sauce, vinegar and pepper for, eh boys!!

 

[KittenKong]

6 hours ago, gdhm said:

Thanks KittenKong and Squeegee.  You have managed to embarrass me on a Public well read Forum so I thank you both for that especially as most of the Western World already thinks that Expats are only here for one thing.

 

You worry too much about what was just a throw-away line, and quite harmless in itself. I have tissues near my PC also (but hidden in a drawer, in case they are photographed for tidiness). And to prevent coffee mug stains I have a beer mat on the desk, so anyone looking at a photo of that might assume that I was an alcoholic. Cant say it would bother me much though.

Anyway, as you are sensitive to what others may think I am happy to apologise for any inconvenience my rhetorical question may have caused you, though I dont really understand how it did.

[gdhm]

5 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

You worry too much about what was just a throw-away line, and quite harmless in itself. I have tissues near my PC also (but hidden in a drawer, in case they are photographed for tidiness). And to prevent coffee mug stains I have a beer mat on the desk, so anyone looking at a photo of that might assume that I was an alcoholic. Cant say it would bother me much though.

Anyway, as you are sensitive to what others may think I am happy to apologise for any inconvenience my rhetorical question may have caused you, though I dont really understand how it did.

 

Fair enough comments KittenKong and thanks. To be honest the other post upset me a lot more. I admit it had been a long day and I did not clean up as I knew all would have to be pushed back today.

I admit, I am little sensitive coz having increased in weight (a lot since here - always had weight issues) it is quite common for my wife (11 years younger. I'm nearly 65) to overhear comments the worst being  in the local market " one stall person said to other "Where do you think she met farang" other "I think Pattaya" first person "Yes I think so too" Lucky I did not understand Thai.  My wife was a teacher and I have never been with "ladies of the night in any country".

 

Anyway on to happier things: the installer arrived with drill in hand and inside 30 mins I was up and running (have yet to push back all the stuff into their normal locations (including tissues and baby wipes )

 

I have done some speed tests mostly speedtest.net . Seems 3BB are throttling (or whatever) around 90% for International.  Opera browsers built in VPN (no data limits) using its Singapore server shows some interesting results as speeds often increased 4 to 5 times  to international sites.

 

I noted if I did 3 tests in a row that with both NO VPN and via VPN min -max speeds could range 15Mb for download speeds (not in any particular order) - NOT SURE WHY. I have shown the most common results (except I did try 2 test sites in New York and ddi several test for all to see variations with NO VPN used.

 

The following show my tests plus a DSLreports and a Super Ping test results.  Note with the speedtest.net results a Blue VPN at top left is VPN ON and a grey VPN is VPN OFF

 

Another observation  I have noted is my ping speeds on speedtest.net are better than when I was on ADLS for example Bangkok was 33ms now its around 8ms,

Singapore is now 31-33ms I recall it used to be 45-60ms

 

OK here are Results I am now getting for all to to make of what they will

 

2nd server

 

 

 

Hope all this of interest Guys.

Many Thanks for all the input an help

 

[Pib]

Glad you got it up and running....now you have many times greater speed to domestic and international sites than you had before for basically the the price you was paying for your low speed ADSL plan.

 

If you get a chance run and posts some tests from testmy.net.  This is a "single-thread" speedtester compared to the multi-thread speedtesters  you used.   You speeds will be lower with testmy.net due to the single pipe testing.

[gdhm]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

Glad you got it up and running....now you have many times greater speed to domestic and international sites than you had before for basically the the price you was paying for your low speed ADSL plan.

 

If you get a chance run and posts some tests from testmy.net.  This is a "single-thread" speedtester compared to the multi-thread speedtesters  you used.   You speeds will be lower with testmy.net due to the single pipe testing.

 

Happy to do so but tomorrow or next day as my son is on his PC today and we are going out tomorrow (amongst other things to cancel my premier package. 

 

I can tell you that site does not like Opera VPN and so I will only be able to do normal speed tests (but I'll have another try)

 

After I posted I have run into one issue I cannot explain and have contacted 3BB Helpdesk who said they will send a setup technician to our home.  Issue is with my son's ols XP PC. his MOBO an Asus A8N-VM-CSM specs say it is has an Nvidia nforce 430 built-in Gigabit MAC with external Marvell 88E1111 PHY supports: NV Active Armour - NV Firewall. His Ethernet cable is cat 5E.  yet the speed shown for his LAN is only 100MB (fast Ethernet.  Even IF that was accepted his speeds to Bangkok are only around 7-9 Mb and even worse internationally and I cannot explain the huge difference.

 

Even with YouTube watching Avatar trailer at 720p its very jerky and also buffers at times.  Maybe CPU has something to do with struggling wityh above 480p videos ON LINE (no issue playing a 720p video form a file on PC though via KMP or VLC, but this STILL gives no idea what the issue is with the speeds

Here are they on my son's XP PC:

 

 

 

[Pib]

I'm surprised 3BB would send anyone out for this kind of issue as it obviously a computer problem versus a ISP problem since you are getting full speed on your computer.  Might be an outside chance it's a router setup problem but doubtful.  

 

Try hooking his ethernet cable into the port of the router your computer is currently connected to...unhooked your cable...hook his into that port instead.     Then hook your computer ethernet cable to the port the son's was previously using.

 

Since the port feeding your computer is obviously working fine that would help narrow the problem down to either the son's computer or his ethernet cable.....or the router.  If his speed jumps up to 100Mb, since one of your snapshots shows he has a 100Mb ethernet port, then it router related as to the router port he was using.    And if your speed drops way down then that further indication of a router port issue.

 

Good luck.

[gdhm]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

I'm surprised 3BB would send anyone out for this kind of issue as it obviously a computer problem versus a ISP problem since you are getting full speed on your computer.  Might be an outside chance it's a router setup problem but doubtful.  

 

Try hooking his ethernet cable into the port of the router your computer is currently connected to...unhooked your cable...hook his into that port instead.     Then hook your computer ethernet cable to the port the son's was previously using.

 

Since the port feeding your computer is obviously working fine that would help narrow the problem down to either the son's computer or his ethernet cable.....or the router.  If his speed jumps up to 100Mb, since one of your snapshots shows he has a 100Mb ethernet port, then it router related as to the router port he was using.    And if your speed drops way down then that further indication of a router port issue.

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

Thanks,

Yes I am surprised too so I must make sure my wife checks its a free of charge visit to us.

 

Well I have just swapped our Ethernet cables into each others ports both now as bad as my sons.  On further checking MY PC  gets 200+mb to Bangkok on beta.speedtest.net on GPON ONU LAN ports 1,3 & 4 but 2 is badly slow. My son seems to get the same bad results on all 4 ports.

 

One more test I have just tried and am NOW even more baffled. I took the LAN connection from my son's PC and unwrapped it from behind all the furniture and plugged it into my PC's LAN port. The GPON ONU did NOT recognize it was connected at all.  I tried in the other ports with the same result.  I replaced my short new LAN cable into my PC and it was immediately recognized in all GPON ONU ports (still very slow in LAN port 2.

Darn, I thought, I have damaged the my son's 20 meter Ethernet cat 5E cable (or maybe just finished it off).

Anyway as I am a "belt and braces" man so I replaced the same cable behind all the furniture and plugged it again into my son's PC's LAN port. IT WORKS??? . Very slow as before  in all GPON ONU ports BUT IT WORKS and IT DOES NOT wrok at all IN MY PC - GO FIGURE!  I am sure to someone, this is a MAJOR  clue of the issue (but not to me). 

 

I Feel there are two SEPARATE issues

1) a wonky port 2 on GPON ONU and

2) whatever is the issue be it cable or PC hardware/software on my son's PC.

 

OK the tests you wanted Pib. I did some, but I admit my son was YouTubing at the time (however I noted on beta.speedtest.net there was only a very small difference with him using and not using his PC with YouTube.

 

I have no idea why, but on the on the testMY.net site you wanted me to to run tests  the results are pretty rubbish compared to 5 or 6 other test sites I have tried.  Maybe you can advise which is the more relevant in "Real World" . I certainly get the feeling single piping is lower than th performance I am getting now (but I may be mistaken).

 

Anyway, here are results I got.  I WAS able to get opera VPN results, but for uploading it resulted in an error if the upload size was bigger than 6Mb so I manually restricted upload sizes. 

 

 

 

 

It has been a mentally tiring day and I'm off to bed now.

Good night all

 

 

[Pib]

Regarding the speed test results, both testmy.net (a single thread tester) and multi-thread testers like Speedtest.net, DSLReports and most OOKLA-based  testers (Speedtest.net and all of the ISPs testers are OOKLA based) are giving real world results.  They are just using different ways to to accomplish the test.   Note: you can change the number threads used in the DSL reports tester to between 1 to 32 (but I think it really only uses 6 max per test server) and when you change it to one thread you will mostly like see a significant drop in speed....like you see with testmy.net.

 

Multi-thread testers open up more than one thread (a.k.a., stream, pipe) when testing to one of its servers somewhere in the world which has the result of providing more bandwidth (speed).   Speedtest.net can open 1, 2, 4, 6, or 8 pipes to a server "if" the server is resourced/capable of providing more than one stream.  But generally Speedtest.net uses "up to" 4 streams if required to get the highest speed result.   Download manager/file downloader software use the same approach of opening up multiple streams in order to get maximum possible download speed.   It's kinda like instead of using one water hose to put out a fire you use multiple water hoses to get more water flowing onto the fire.....more hoses means more water flowing...but if you can't hook more hoses to the fire truck or hydrant you can't use the multiple hoses method.   A lot of apps and the severs they are connected to implement "multithreading."   Like browser's implement multithreading some when you are just surfing/browsing, downloading files, and doing some other computering tasks, you get fast speeds.

 

Single-thread speed test results one use one thread (stream, pipe) to accomplish testing to one of their servers somewhere in the world.   Now if your Internet Service Provider (ISP) is not shaping the bandwidth especially at his international gateway, has plenty of international bandwidth, etc., one-thread should get you the full speed of your plan.  But in the real internet world we know ISPs do implement bandwidth shaping/throttling/don't have enough international bandwidth 24/7....especially true for Thai ISPs reaching out to most international locations.  Not to imply you could get full speed  to some international locations even if your Thai ISP didn't shape/throttle and had plenty of international bandwidth.  Sometimes when crossing into country XYZ somewhere in the world that's were the chokepoint occurs....the internet lines in that country are just slow....many countries/regions still have low bandwidth capability.    

 

So when the ISP implements shaping/throttling it reduces the size of your single thread/stream/pipe....to offset this, a person needs "more" pipes opened to continue to receive higher speed/more water "if" the type of interneting/apps being used and servers being connected to support multi-threading.   When streaming live video, video clips inserted in media articles, Youtube type videos, etc., that's usually a single-thread operation.  And such single thread interneting needs a "consistent & steady" flow of data, not too much stop & go data flow.  

 

When I say stop & go, I'm not talking stopping for a few seconds & going for a few seconds because even a stop & go in the X-milliseconds ballpark can disrupt video streaming, VOIP calls, etc....it varies as to how much stop & go can result in degradation you can notices in real world use.   In single- and multi-threading tester the results they display is pretty much just an average of all the speed samples they took during the test and then disregarding a few high and low speed samples which means the stop & go periods don't really impact the final results too much  

 

I'm sure you read the many, many posts on ThaiVisa in where people just can't seem to understand why their speed testing shows good speeds (especially on mult-ithread testers) but their video streaming sucks!   Well, that because of the info I talked about above.   

Multi-thread and single-thread testers both have their pros and cons as they are testing in different ways.   But if  you get good speed via a single-thread tester then a multi-thread tester will almost surely show an equal or higher speeds.   An ISP that keeps your "single-pipe" larger 24/7 is better than an ISP where you have to rely on "multiple-pipes" more 24/7.

 

A VPN connection can make a big difference in your international speeds but that depends on both your ISP and VPN provider.   When I was on True Cable/DOCSIS I found a VPN connection helped greatly (got around/bypassed some of their shaping/throttling); but since being on AIS for 6 months a VPN connection has much less of a positive effect or no positive effect.  Since I used the same VPN service on both True and AIS I can only assumed the nature of their network made that difference.   And from some posts I've seen 3BB usually responds well (more speed to international sites) to VPN---but remember in can vary depending on your VPN service provider....and free VPN is probably not going to be as fast a paid VPN.   

 

[Pib]

Just as nice to know, from looking at the testmy.net database your "VPN" results are not shown; only your non-VPN results.  

 

That tells me VPN results are indeed included in the database as your snapshot shows but only viewable by the person running the tests...not viewable by other folks.  

 

When you see the head and shoulders symbol  display next to the CONNECTID that just telling you that was the results "you" run when "you" are viewing results....other viewers will not see the head and shoulders symbol....just the CONNECTID number.

[gdhm]

42 minutes ago, Pib said:

Just as nice to know, from looking at the testmy.net database your "VPN" results are not shown; only your non-VPN results.  

 

That tells me VPN results are indeed included in the database as your snapshot shows but only viewable by the person running the tests...not viewable by other folks.  

 

When you see the head and shoulders symbol  display next to the CONNECTID that just telling you that was the results "you" run when "you" are viewing results....other viewers will not see the head and shoulders symbol....just the CONNECTID number.

 

First thanks for the wonderfully detailed information on pipelining etc. 

 

 

May be because I never sign up to any site unless very important  and I have no choice. So in this case I did not sign up or log in.  Don't know if that makes any difference. 

 

3BB phoned today to tell my wife she needs to phone a specific Bangkok Number if we need assistance,  Clearly the Unit has a faulty LAN 2 Port but I suggested to me wife as so close to New Year that we wait until afterwards.  Gives me time to get a new better quality 10 Meter LAN cable  (only actually need 8.5m) and see if that helps my son's PC.

Do you know Pib whether a LAN cable underperforming would cause a PCs O/s or hardware to report only fast Ethernet instead of Gigabit Ethernet or would the PCs LAN port dictate the speeds capability

 

The FiberHome unit seems very sensitive to me.  I needed to move it higher on my PC unit (same area as previous) because init has several buttons and a USB port on its right side and there was insufficient clearance to insert a standard USB flash drive. just holding the unit firmly could cause a read warning light to flash on and back to green.   The installer left a role of looped Fibre cable (was too long) which we hung on a hook on back of PC unit. that's good as allows clearance if pulling out the PC desk unit for access however I reckon there is about 5 metres of the stuff.  He decided he wanted to drill the hole for the cable to enter the house just above the skirting board (I had suggested half way up wall.  Turns out I was right coz the cable loops and hangs very close to floor and now I am going to have to get a double sides scotch take hook or two to make it rise form its entry point so when cleaning floor under PC desk unit or moving feet there is not danger of moving damaging the cable. Had it been where I suggested it would have entered house behind my VDU and well above the floor and foot area AND would be difficult to see (which is not the case where he decided was best). 

Last time I will say "you're the expert I will let your judgement decide where is best to drill the hole". It also makes the outside cable more vulnerable to knocks being at foot level IMO  . 

 

Pib I did run a couple of speed tests around 2am this morning (son was long in bed) - as did not go to bed last night when intended. The speeds were slightly worse than those I gave you earlier when he wa accessing and watching YouTube. I assume time of day for UK and US made the greater impact).

 

Have ANY of the test results shown anything interesting, good/poor in your opinion Pib. Seems you are better able to analyse and comment on than I am with regard to Real World use. Would I be correct in thinking if I had speeds internationally of Plus 10Mb download speeds plus 5Mb upload I would expect 2 PCs watching HD 1080p or 720P video simultaneously that buffering should be expected to be non existent at those speeds or are there other considerations. Would you agree with that.  I did notice when alone and I tested a 1080p movie after it got started that the streaming bar outpaced the play position bar. Before with Premier 720p would be caught up sometimes if I did not allow the temp streaming  buffer to build up before starting to play video and even then it often caught up if video more than a few minutes. Sorry if I have used incorrect terminology.

 

Would I also be correct Pib that no matter how fast down/up speeds are if sites throttle max speeds to/from their sites or maybe if have many user accessing their sites at the same time that these factor will often override package speed capabilities. I have noted that my Free Download Manager has said in the past they built in a max capability that they feel is reasonable and will not anger sites into them stopping  setting low maximum download speeds to fast downloaders that try and download above a certain speed.

 

Interested in your comments Pib

 

Oh yes my wife came to me last night 2am (sad as I am) saying her smart mobile was giving her a "nearly used up data allowance. Well seems as best I can tell she has been watching handicraft videos via her smart phone (by its normal data methods (not Wi-Fi). I assume the streamed temp file to her mobile is where all her data allowance has gone to.  I did notice when TRYING to understand what was going on (these smart phones are mystery to me and prone to hacking and private data stealing with all the permissions apps ask for). Anyway I was surprised to see my new User name for my FiberHome Unit listed on her phone under Wi-Fi as excellent strength and quality. I also noticed another name listed as well that came and went. I assume bot were picked up as Hotspots. So when I clicked on my entry it asked for a password.  I now assume that if I wish my wife to be able to access my Units Wi-Fi she needs to enter the password the installer asked me for when he asked for the Username (until I saw the User name on her Mobile I was not sure what I had given a password and Username for (obviously Wi_Fi access). I am nowhere up to speed on security and privacy yet for Wi-Fi (to be honest Bluetooth and Wi-Fi scare me as as understand so little)  - I  was not given a USER manual with explanations -just a leaflet saying what the buttons and sockets were (very UNhelpful). Anyway I switched off her phones Wi-Fi capability until I know for sure if it costs her and I disabled mine for same reason as I wish to ensure 3rd parties cannot access me as a hotspot or get into my PC or her mobile.

 

I had to phone 3BB Help-Desk to find password to get into the FiberHome Unit's settings menus. They told me, but seemed a little unwilling (especially as account in my wife's name -knew that woukld come back to biter me)  and concerned why I would wish to access. I told them t screen dump all settings in case the Unit ever corrupted its settings and I needed to reset, so I can confirm if ISP down on occasions that internet access is lost, so I can set time if not already so I can ensure Wi-Fi at max recommended security (and NOW to switch it OFF).  How quaint that the on-screen toggle button to switch Wi_Fi On/Off has text labels of  "radio on" and when toggled "radio off".   (so Wi-Fi is now called radio eh ..

 

Off to cancel my Premier package, return 3BB ADSL modem (never used) and get my deposit back and hopefully paid January service fee.

 

[Pib]

The router and device its feeding do "handshaking" that lets them come to agreement what is the fastest speed connection, 10, 100, or 1000Mb will be used.  If your son's computer's ports are only 100Mb Fast ports, well, a router with 1000Mb Gigabit ports can't make his ports run at 1000Mb speed.  And in those situations where both the router and computer (or whatever device hooked to the router) have 1000Mb gigabit ports, the speed the router and computer/device come to agreement on to use could be 10Mb, 100Mb, or 1000Mb (full or half duplex)...depending on the data flow need.

 

Example: I have AIS Fibre which comes with an Android box to view the AIS TV/Movies stuff.  It's connected via ethernet to a router....both the router and Android box have 1000Mb ports.   However, when the Android box is turned off my router reports in its firmware BIOS menus a Half Duplex 10Mb connection is in use, but as soon as I turn on the Android box it changes to a Full Duplex 100Mb connection....probably didn't go all the way to a 1000Mb connection since the router and box agreed in their handshaking is more than fast enough to stream video data from the router to the Android and then onto my TV screen.  Many ethernet ports can automatically adopt their port speed up and down (adaptive)....don't necessary just lock to their maximum speed rating. 

 

Yes, a defective cable could cause your problem.   Ethernet cable can also be wired in two different configurations, T-568A or T-568B wiring standard.  While they supposedly can be used interchangeably if the equipment you are interconnecting can use either A or B standard, if the equipment is designed only for one of those standards connection problems can occur.    The A standard is the old standard and mostly used within building infrastructure wiring....the newer B standard is what is almost always used now when interconnection equipment like a computer to a router, etc.   I expect 95%  of the ethernet cables  you buy ready made at a store come wired to the B standard.   If cabling comes in a retail package it may say 568A or 568B somewhere on the packaging; but mostly likely not reflected on the cabling.   Be sure to use the B standard cables.

http://www.incentre.net/tech-support/other-support/ethernet-cable-color-coding-diagram/

 

Based on what I've seen no Testmy.net and posts from other ThaiVisa 200/50 plan users your results are inline with theirs.  And international bandwidth/speed can change a lot during the daily 24  hour period....and certain days/holidays can be worst than others....doesn't matter what Thai ISP you are using.   And sites/servers you are connecting to can throttle their speed to you...just because you have a 200Mb speed to location X when checking with a speedtester does not mean a streaming video provider also in location X is going to stream data to you at 200Mb.  They will stream only what is needed to give a good video, but if along the way from them to you there is a chokepoint/some throttling going by your ISP or just one of the many hops along the way then your speed/video streaming gets slowed down..delayed....turns into stop & go, buffering occurs, etc..  

 

Below webpage talks minimum speeds for streaming various video resolutions.  But what the webpage don't mention is it needs to also be a steady/consistent speed not some "average" speed reported by a speedtester.

https://www.lifewire.com/internet-speed-requirements-for-movie-viewing-1847401

 

The name you say on your wife's phone was just the default Wifi broadcast name entered in the router...it's called the SSID.  You can go into the router's firmware and change that name to any name your want.  Yes, the password you need to enter to make a wifi connection to the router is the password that you chose/setup when the installer was there.   I always tell my wife when she is using her phone/tablet "within" our home to make a Wifi connection to our router because the connection will be much faster than her 3G mobile data plan and she will not be using-up her monthly 3G mobile data allotment.  I do the same.  Wifi connection within our home; 3G connection when away from home.

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

[gdhm]

Wow Pib, what wonderfully detailed but concise answers to all my questions. Thanks ever so much (again) .

 

LAN cable was bought at Mall form a cable and leads stall. I do not think its great quality. Printed on it is:  LIAN YOU COMPUTR NETWORK CABLE  CAT 5E 4PAIR/24AWG (that's it) .  Still think its strange it is recognized attached to my son's PC's LAN port but not when connected to my PC's LAN port.

 

(incidently the short supplied Ethernet cable supplied with my GPON ONU has ZERO details on it, so I just assumed it is CAT5e (works perfectly anyway) as CAT 5 is not often sold now.

 

The User name (SSID) that my wife and I saw on her Smart phone was in fact the one I personally supplied to the Installer. He wanted me to give him a User name and a password  (each with 8 chars) which I did.

I assume him knowing them is a serious weakness and should be changed. I assume if I change them in the Units admin settings it specific only to my Unit and 3BB does need to know.

If you say change and make them longer Pib (which I expect you will) I will wait until they replace the unit due to wonky Port 2 (probably will be best to remove the supplied passwords I gave as welI). I will contact 3BB after New Year as Agent has gone meditating and  I think she is the best person to go through. Also gives me time to locate a new 10m Ethernet cable based upon your advice and see if any improvement.

 

Her are the relevent settings pages unchanged for what Unit came with (I have removed the User name and password of course.  May I ask if any of the settings are not optimum for security and privacy Pib.  I have no idea of the relevance of the 120% and 16s. Could the 120% be something to do with range of Wi-Fi signal, namely the higher the percentage the greater the local range? (I'm probably way off thinking that )

 

You will recall I set Radio (Wi-Fi OFF) as not using yet. but with you info I will switch on for my wife to use at home with her Mobile (if she is the only one who can access which from what you said seems to be the case - unless she lets slip the password)

 

 

An extra power status page in case you are interested. Once again means nothing to me as far as performance

  If there are any other settings or whatever you are curious/interested about Pib, you only have to ask (its the least I can do after all your help)

 

When I took my modem back and cancelled my Premier package the girl saw us and jumped to the conclusion I was back to chase for Fibre package that she had told us was not available in my area yet. She opened up with if you want Fibre it is like I said you have to wait until it is installed in your area.  My wife said we have come to cancel my Premier package. Girl said how will you get internet if you cancel. My wife said we have the Fiber package installed and working now.  She went on to her computer and I guessed what was coming next. "It does not show your husband having a new Plan (maybe she thought I went with someone else). My wife said the 3BB agent said it best it was opened in my wife's name. Oh I understand she said But you may have Fibre but until boxes etc. and more cables fitted you will not get very good speeds and cable to you house must be very long.  My wife said we were getting the around maximum speeds for the package 200Mb/50Mb in Thailand. My wife said the girl said "I don't believe it. Not possible yet.

I suppose its a matter of Face and I am not bothered but I she questioned my wife's accuracy of reporting. When I take the car for another run in 12 weeks time I will go by the office and my wife can drop in the 3BB Speedtest screenshot showing 204mb/44mb ping 15ms and just say I wanted you to know I told you the truth that we get the package speed. No need to mention the throttling on International coz that's a not salient as the package is quoting Thai max speeds only.

Interesting the ping speed using the  3BB test page with a OOKLA logo on it as well as the 3BB logo (3BB personalized display)  was consistently 15ms, yet all other sites I tried always showed pings of 7or 8ms  to Bangkok (including Speedtest.net). Maybe the 3BB test server different is not as good hence slower pings.

 

 

I forgot my son says he thinks his internet connections are now faster than before. This I would expect as even though poor for come reason they are still 2x up to 3x faster than he got with my old package.  I think his CPU struggles with YouTube above 480p coz it cannot avoid jerking even though the buffer is well beyond the now playing pointer. However, as I said in my last post, his PC plays a local 720p file on a a soft ware player very well ( not the case with 1080p). Something is messed up. I will try IE or Opera to with YouTube 720P videos to see if it is just a Firefox issue or Firefox setting issue. 

Think I will have to think about a new PC and Win 10 OS,  in not too distant future. Only decision will be cost - do I get him a decent one or, get a very good one built (better than mine) and give him mine.  Decisions, Decisions!

 

Bye for now.

 

 

[Pib]

In your security mode setting I'm pretty sure you are fine as it appears to be set to WPA/WPA2 with AES encryption.   With it set to WPA/WPA2 that means it will allow older devices/computers which can only handle WPA protocol to connect to the router also.....and of course newer computers/devices which can use the newer WPA2 protocol will connect using WPA2.  And AES is the strongest encryption so that's good. 

 

Regarding password length, well, longer passwords are more secure, but don't go overboard.  Remember, you are only trying to keep folks close enough to pickup your Wifi signal from hacking your password and logging on.   I doubt you will have spies and crooks living close enough to have much worry about that.  Let's just say a router Wifi password strength may not be as important as your ibanking password.  Nowdays, password 8 digits longer is usually considered the minimum length to get a strong password when using letters, numbers, and symbols in the password.   And of course, if your family is going to know the password be sure they understand not to pass it around to family/friends unless they intentionally want family/friends to be able to logon.

 

Some Wifi routers do have Wifi power transmission control....I have an ASUS router like that which you can adjust from 100% down to a lower level.  Allowing it to transmit at more than 100% may overdrive/overheat the router Wifi circuit and even distort the digital signal somewhat although it would broadcast the Wifi signal a little further.  You'll just have to try to find a manual and read up on it....maybe just set it to 100% for now to play it safe.   Then again, for your router maybe 200% really means full power and 100% means half power....etc.....I really could say.

 

You incoming and outgoing TX/RX optical power levels are fine.  Most optical routers expect to see a RX incoming signal from your ISP between a -8dbm to -27dbm.  And most optical routers generate a TX outgoing level between a +0.5dbm and +5dbm....that's the signal level yoour router sends upstream to  your ISP.   I see both RX/TX power levels are comfortably within those levels.   The supply voltage and bias current levels relates to powering the TX laser circuit within the router....remember, it generates a laser signal to go back to the ISP.....those two are will within their desired ranges.  Ditto for operating temperature.

 

Edit: oh yea, you wireless network setting of b/g/n is fine as that allows b, g, "and/or" n devices to connect.  And 40Mhz bandwidth will give significantly better Wifi bandwidth than 20MHz.  You may have a 20/40Mhz setting which will allow the router to automatically decide what bandwidth to use.  I would leave it on 40Mhz to get maximum bandwidth, unless a device/computer seems to struggle in dealing with 40Mhz....then try the 20Mhz or 20/40Mhz settings.   Now a 40Mhz setting does hog twice as much bandwidth on the 2.4Ghz channels which "might" cause some Wifi interference to any close by  neighbors trying to use their Wifi connection (say neighbors up to around 30 meters away).  Now your neighbors are not using your Wifi signal nor you theirs; it's just the their signal and your signal overlap each other more/have to fight with each other more in trying to make a good signal connection to computers/devices.   

[gdhm]

Once again thanks ever so much Pib.  I'll give you a rest now  The information you have given me on my settings is very reassuring  and I ma very happy that the Power status settings all within their desired ranges is extremely pleasing.

 

I will leave to 120^ and 40Mhz as those were the setting that the Unit came with. Temp is fine and up to 30 metres will not affect anybody I think because to front of house and right there is empty land. The unit is in room at front of house and to back garden wall is about 21 meters and signal would pass though 3 walls plus boundary wall. Only person that may be affected is neighbour to side of house as whose house starts about 10 metres away. He and his wife are elderly so I doubt they use Wi-Fi but they do have a grown daughter staying with them and she may but I doubt my wife in all honesty will be using Wi-Fi much.  If not I will keep it off and she can easily ask me to switch it on.   My wife;s phone shows whether the signal is excellent or not so I guess a clue would be if that fluctuated when looked at from same location in house. I also assume if the daughter used Wi-Fi that she would see my Wi-Fi signal and my wife would notice hers. Last night there was one other showing up on my wife's phone (but was 2am) and dropped in and out.

 

I assume what was printed on my Ethernet cable gave no clues and if not no need to respond Pib you have gone way beyond the help I ever dreamed someone would do to assist and advise me.  Thanks to you and the other guys who also advised me, I took the plunge and am extremely grateful to you all as you all advised I could not lose and your all were correct. I had been avoiding risking a change for a couple for years. Luckily for me the Pre End of Year promotion was also a very good one.

 

Kind regards to all

 

[gdhm]

Just a quick update

It gets curiouser and curiouser : 

1)FiberHome GPON ONU unit's LAN 2 Port has started to work OK. I tested with several cable unplugs and plugins and continued to behave. No idea why or whether permanent or will prove to be inconsistent. Either way I have plugged my son's Ethernet Cable into LAN Port 3 (for time being)

 

2) My Son's PC whilst i was retesting it very poor speeds to even Bangkok (about 7-9Mb suddenly with beta.speedtest.net pulled out 96Mb/45Mb and about 20 test later a 46Mb/25Mb all the rest around 30 were its usual poor 7-9Mb downloads.  These were all done on evening of New Year's Eve  when I would (if anything) have expected many users online to possibly slows things more than normal.

 

As I said before, my next intention is to buy another (hopefully higher quality) 10 M Cat 5e Ethernet Cable to see if the currently used cable cable is the cause of the very poor speeds with my Son's PC (compared to mine).

 

I take this opportunity to wish all  and your families a Very Happy New Year.

gdhm

[gdhm]

Couple of courtesy Updates for those (still) following this Topic and new observations

Today I purchased a couple of Icon LAN CAT cables (3m & 10m from a J.I.B. Computers Stall in a Mall in Khon Kaen.  Packet is titles Cable High Quality and has several highlights listed

package has made in China so I expect that explains the English in places below)

1) Impedance Ultra High Density

2) Triple shielded

3_High intensity Copper Cable for the most stabilized

4) 24K pure hardened gold plated contacts maintain high bandwidth and maximum data signal integrity.

 

Although I did not have any issue with my PC, I replaced my 3BB supplied (barely long enough) cable with the 3m new cable (now I can pull my PC out without disconnecting cables ).

I replaced my son's PCs cable with the 10m new cable and NOW Network properties shows 1.0Gb instead of 100mb with the other Cat 5e cable.  I have been investigating and some suggested the Nvidia nforce network controller is very sensitive and not a great driver. Some said they got results by not going to CAT5e but to CAT6 cable . This has worked for me (as the cable I removed was CAT5e but may have also been faulty and I think low quality) .

 

Now it did not made much better speeds but some improvement on the awful 7mb download speeds I was getting (now 23mb to 46mb. but still nowhere near 200Mb I get on much newer Win 10 PC.

I have noted jitters seems less  controlled BUT the biggest observation with beta.speedtest.net was that

1) Google Chrome gets to 46mb+ to STS Group Bangkok download

2) Opera (can only use up to ver 36 on Win XP PCs  around 26Mb download

3) Firefox 50.1 (still supports Winx XP sp3)  7-12Mb

Now the really interesting thing was that IE 8 (which cannot be used with YouTube or various other websites as they reject this version) could not use the none Java/Flash beta.speedtest.net (html5 I think) but could use the java & Flash speedtest.net and it achieved 225mb/45mb.

 

OK so IE8 does not like  html5 websites and I have noted that all Youtube videos played on ANY of the Browsers crackle badly on audio and stutter quite a lot even at 360p or 480p but they all cache fast even with 702P.  I believe this has a lot to do with my old CPU and older RAM struggling. (although can cope to 720p pretty well via a downloaded file and player). N

When I FORCE the browsers and YouTube to use Flash instead of html5 the audio crackling ceases 99%. stuttering is much reduced and minimal at 480p. Strangely Chrome and Opera although reporting faster speeds than Firefox (6-9MB download) fair far less well with YouTube videos. Going full screen on all browsers really causes hesitations to increase quite a lot.

 

I decided to experiment and use the Java/Flash based Speedtest.net with  FF, Opera and Chrome all much improved to close to 200mb downloads if STS Group Bangkok Server selected.

My only conclusion why Firefox jumps from the beta speedtests 6-9MB to 200Mb is that I have to assume Firefox does NOT do as well with Win XP and html5 as Opera Ver 36 and Chrome.

Clearly Opera Ver 36 and Chrome used with Win XP also clearly prefer the Java/Flash based speedtest.net over beta.speedtest.net (html5) but not to such a large degree as Firefox. 

 

My final conclusion based on observations and research is:

1) Win XP hates html5 compared to Flash. 

2) Opera and Chrome no longer support Win XP.  Opera forces Win XP to use no higher than Ver 36 (it has no built VPN) whereas Chrome does not neither are optimized for such an old OS.

3) My son's PC CPU, RAM (2GB not even DDR3) and onboard Nvidia Graphics chip are just not up to the task of YouTube or many things that nowadays require greater and faster hardware resources (NOT surprising).  He needs a new PC a.s.a.p and I sure all the issues  on speed will disappear immediately.

4) Microsoft stopped supporting Win XP long ago so any optimization options ceased development.

5) Several sites have said that whilst Win7, 8.1 and Win 10 have all been much improved to deal with Networking and Internet optimization by default, Win XP's defaults are way behind modern speeds and Fibre etc. needing various fixes, patched and tweaks.  I tried TCP Optimizer (well reported) but found using its default Optimal settings, actually slowed Firefox (did not notice any difference with Opera or Chrome so I restored to my setting prior to running it. I have made some tweaks in the past in Firefox's about:config and quite possibly I identified the major improvements that worked on my son's( formerly my) PC.

6) If watching YouTube video even moving the mouse has a negative affect. Once again supporting my belief that the CPU/RAM and MOBO just cannot keep up.

 

I need to save up after I get my son into the best public high school I can in March. Suspect with Brexit killing the value of GDP it will be have to be the latter part of 2017. C'est la vie.

 

This is my final report on this Topic (hurray I hear some say ) .  I just wished to close things off as a courtesy to Pib a few others that helped me in this topic.

[Scott]

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