Jewish settlers demand support for Amona outpost

[webfact]

Jewish settlers demand support for Amona outpost

 

 

JERUSALEM: -- Several hundred Jewish settlers and supporters of an illegal outpost in the occupied West Bank have held a rally protesting against the Israel government’s relocation plans.

 

The outpost called Amona has to be evacuated by December 25 according to the Israeli Supreme Court.

 

The fate of the outpost, where around 400 Israelis live has become a major issue in Israeli politics.

 

“If this right wing Likud government can’t organise and make seder, make order in Judea and Samaria, where Jews have a right to live, then they have no right to actually govern this country,” said one protester.

 

Amona is one of hundreds of unauthorised outposts in the West Bank, but has been left of a new government bill legalising around 4,000 other homes.

 

The government is seeking a loophole to resolve the issue but in the meantime Israel’s top court says the residents must leave.

 

In the five decades since Israel captured the West Bank, it has built about 120 formal settlements on the territory. Most of the world deems them illegal and an obstacle to peace with the Palestinians, who aim to establish a state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital.

 

Amona became a symbol of settler defiance after the partial evacuation a decade ago sparked violent clashes between residents and allied activists on one side and security forces on the other.

 

-- © Copyright Euronews 2016-12-14

 

 

[thetruth revealer]

Is that Thailand related?

I opened a tread yesterday ,  from Jimmy Carter regarding  the illegal occupation in Palestine and it was closed from Admin ....

 

 

Jimmy Carter unveils truth about Israel

[DavidVincent]

These morons will probably end with what they want...and then complain the Palestinians are aggressive terrorists...

[DavidVincent]

17 minutes ago, thetruth revealer said:

Is that Thailand related?

I opened a tread yesterday ,  from Jimmy Carter regarding  the illegal occupation in Palestine and it was closed from Admin ....

 

 

Jimmy Carter unveils truth about Israel

It is not thailand related, that's why the topic is in World News and not Thailand News

[thetruth revealer]

Ok, ic, it could have been moved to World news  instead closing the whole tread IMO, since there is no access to open Topic in World news.

 

Edited December 14, 2016 by thetruth revealer

[thetruth revealer]

5 minutes ago, DavidVincent said:

These morons will probably end with what they want...and then complain the Palestinians are aggressive terrorists...

Never gonna have peace in the world until this will be resolved.

 Sadly true what we are tolerating and even support .

Its a shame for the whole humanity and a disgrace for the UN.

[AsiaCheese]

"... where Jews have a right to live..." - yes, sure, because some old fairytale that's been translated and embellished across X number of languages and centuries says so? It's a land grab, and an illegal one. Face up, "settlers".

[Morch]

10 hours ago, thetruth revealer said:

Never gonna have peace in the world until this will be resolved.

 Sadly true what we are tolerating and even support .

Its a shame for the whole humanity and a disgrace for the UN.

 

Never gonna have peace in the world until this will be resolved.

 

Resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not the cornerstone of global peace.

[Morch]

8 hours ago, AsiaCheese said:

"... where Jews have a right to live..." - yes, sure, because some old fairytale that's been translated and embellished across X number of languages and centuries says so? It's a land grab, and an illegal one. Face up, "settlers".

 

Most of these illegal settlers are indeed religious Jews, following a rather messianic interpretation of the Bible. As for many other hardcore believers (of whatever religion), facts are a distraction.

[DaddyWarbucks]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Most of these illegal settlers are indeed religious Jews, following a rather messianic interpretation of the Bible. As for many other hardcore believers (of whatever religion), facts are a distraction.

If facts are a distraction for the hardcore believers occupying Amona and other illegal settlements in the West Bank they need to be given a lesson in reality.

The best form that could take would be an international boycott of Israel until they agree to live within their 1967 borders.

[bandito]

8 hours ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

agree to live within their 1967 borders.

 

Their borders from 3000 years ago you mean.

Israel existed that long ago and there is not, or has been, a country by the name of Palestine, they were the landgrabbers.

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, bandito said:

 

Their borders from 3000 years ago you mean.

Israel existed that long ago and there is not, or has been, a country by the name of Palestine, they were the landgrabbers.

One could descend into an endless definition of "what is a country?" Many different peoples and religions have lived in the region before and after Judaism. No single one of the them has a right to dominate another.

 

Today (to remain relevant to the peace process), the majority of people living in historic mandated Palestine whose area Israel currently controls 100% are still not Jewish. This is the elephant in the room that Israel, that aspires to be the Jewish State, will have to deal with in the future.

 

The OP Amona closure may be a step in dealing with that dilemma; maybe just a temporary sop to appease critics of Israel.

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been removed.   This is not a general discussion of Israel.   Continued trolling will result in suspensions.  

[Morch]

15 hours ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

If facts are a distraction for the hardcore believers occupying Amona and other illegal settlements in the West Bank they need to be given a lesson in reality.

The best form that could take would be an international boycott of Israel until they agree to live within their 1967 borders.

 

The expected Pavlovian response. Read my post again, these are religious zealots. For them, facts and reality are secondary to their beliefs. Hardships are construed as a test of faith. That sort of thing.

 

The boycott mantra misses the point. It's  taking the easy road by lumping together all related views, apparently without  much thought given to the probable effects. That is, apart from fantasies about how it's supposed to solve everything. Most of the various boycotts suggested will hurt secular, pro-peace and left wing Israelis. At the same time, such a hypothetical boycott will be a boon to government propaganda ("everyone is against us"). And as usual, those advocating this nonsense tend to make light of the further economic hardship it spells for the Palestinians.

[DavidVincent]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The expected Pavlovian response. Read my post again, these are religious zealots. For them, facts and reality are secondary to their beliefs. Hardships are construed as a test of faith. That sort of thing.

 

The boycott mantra misses the point. It's  taking the easy road by lumping together all related views, apparently without  much thought given to the probable effects. That is, apart from fantasies about how it's supposed to solve everything. Most of the various boycotts suggested will hurt secular, pro-peace and left wing Israelis. At the same time, such a hypothetical boycott will be a boon to government propaganda ("everyone is against us"). And as usual, those advocating this nonsense tend to make light of the further economic hardship it spells for the Palestinians.

I understand your idee but then what can the world do?

It seems ban and sanctions worked well for the Apartheid situation in South Africa.

The US uses it against Russia, Iran, North Korea...it doesn't work but the main difference here is Israel "is" a democracy. The government can be changed by the polls.

Right now Bibi is too close from those fanatics because he needs their votes at the Knesset and play their game quite well, he seems  even to agree to most of their diatribes.

So if the majority of Israeli are not bigots they can change their leaders and kick those morons out of stolen lands.

 

Edited December 15, 2016 by DavidVincent

[Morch]

5 hours ago, dexterm said:

One could descend into an endless definition of "what is a country?" Many different peoples and religions have lived in the region before and after Judaism. No single one of the them has a right to dominate another.

 

Today (to remain relevant to the peace process), the majority of people living in historic mandated Palestine whose area Israel currently controls 100% are still not Jewish. This is the elephant in the room that Israel, that aspires to be the Jewish State, will have to deal with in the future.

 

The OP Amona closure may be a step in dealing with that dilemma; maybe just a temporary sop to appease critics of Israel.

 

No single one of them has a right to dominate another, says poster often questioning Israel's right to exist. Pull the other one.

 

Quote

The OP Amona closure may be a step in dealing with that dilemma; maybe just a temporary sop to appease critics of Israel.

 

The background and current political landscape leading to the situation described in the OP were discussed and reviewed on several previous topics. If you still have trouble figuring out what's what, may want to re-visit them. This has nothing to do with addressing the demographics issue and very little to do with appeasing critics of Israel.

[Morch]

 

2 minutes ago, DavidVincent said:

I understand your idee but then what can the world do?

It seems ban and sanctions worked well for the Apartheid situation in South Africa.

The US uses it against Russia, Iran, North Korea...it doesn't work but the main difference here is Israel "is" a democracy. The government can be changed by the polls.

Right now Bibi is too close from those fanatics because he needs their votes at the Knesset and play their game quite well, he seems  even to agree to most of their diatribes.

So if the majority of Israeli are not bigots they can change their leaders and kick those morons out of stolen lands.

 

 

Which "world" (whatever is meant by that) is not very good at "doing" things. The assertion that this specific conflicts merits more that the usual international attention, is an opinion, and not necessarily an objective one.

 

And another Pavlovian response - Apartheid. Posters going on about this may want to consult the views of such people as de Klerk with regard to the sanctions effect and to their relevance with regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Both have been cited on many previous topics.

 

If I read your "argument" correctly, Israel is to be "punished" because it's a democracy. Unless what you were shooting for is another instance of "regime change" - something usually scorned in other instances. Either doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

Posters either fail to grasp, or ignore on purpose, that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not the only issue on the agenda when it comes to Israeli elections. The same over simplified point of view disregards the reality that resolving the conflict amounts to more than "kick them out".

[DavidVincent]

27 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

 

Which "world" (whatever is meant by that) is not very good at "doing" things. The assertion that this specific conflicts merits more that the usual international attention, is an opinion, and not necessarily an objective one.

 

And another Pavlovian response - Apartheid. Posters going on about this may want to consult the views of such people as de Klerk with regard to the sanctions effect and to their relevance with regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Both have been cited on many previous topics.

 

If I read your "argument" correctly, Israel is to be "punished" because it's a democracy. Unless what you were shooting for is another instance of "regime change" - something usually scorned in other instances. Either doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

Posters either fail to grasp, or ignore on purpose, that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not the only issue on the agenda when it comes to Israeli elections. The same over simplified point of view disregards the reality that resolving the conflict amounts to more than "kick them out".

Well it is not like the illegal settlements are a new thing, is it?

It is not like Israel government give the middle finger to the International community each time they settle in palestinian land, is it?

Yes Israel needs to be punished because of its lack of mediation, it needs to be punished because every month a new illegal settlement arise, it needs to be punished because, like it or not this is a kind of apartheid: when a country over-rule another one, dictate the laws, give itself the right to create law to make land stealing legal, it needs to be punished.

And maybe when the Israeli will be fed up with sanctions, they will understand they need a change of direction in their choice of leaders.

Palestine is maybe not the only issue in the agenda during election? having followed quite a lot of elections in Israel, it is the MAIN topic, yes, especially from the rigt/far right/bigot side.

The world (yes the world) thinks illegal settlement is a MAJOR problem to have peace, and yet Israel continue to give a middle finger to everybody, arguing some old stupid diatribes. So you may be tired to read the same thing over and over again; guess what: most of the world is tired to see the settlements growing again and again and fail to do anything

Edited December 15, 2016 by DavidVincent

[dexterm]

Netanyahu is in a Catch 22.

 

If evacuation is cancelled with Amona being included in the current proposed Legalization Bill to backdate approval on illegal outposts on Palestinian owned land, it may prompt Obama not to veto any UN moves against this current land grab in the Security Council, and may encourage the Palestinians to bring forward complaints before the ICC.

 

If the forced evacuation does take place the images are bound to upset Netanyahu's fanatical far right colleagues.

 

"Members of the security cabinet were warned in a meeting on Sunday, which concerned the evacuation of the unauthorized outpost of Amona, that the proposed law to legalize such settlements could lead to the opening of a criminal investigation in the International Criminal Court in the Hague against Israeli leaders."

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.755837

 

The fudge solution proposed by some Israeli politicians is to sweep the matter temporarily under the carpet by evacuating the fanatics to some nearby Palestinian land until the new US admin takes over, thus giving Trump one of his first headaches.

 

"According to Israeli rights group Peace Now, the latest Israeli government compromise would see the relocation of 40 settler families to nearby land privately owned by Palestinians
“The Israeli government is replacing one land theft by another,” Peace Now said in a statement on Tuesday. “It is willing to crush basic rights of Palestinians, bend Israeli law and violate international law -- all in order to satisfy 41 families who knowingly settled on private Palestinian lands."

 

http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=774421

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, DavidVincent said:

Well it is not like the illegal settlements are a new thing, is it?

It is not like Israel government give the middle finger to the International community each time they settle in palestinian land, is it?

Yes Israel needs to be punished because of its lack of mediation, it needs to be punished because every month a new illegal settlement arise, it needs to be punished because, like it or not this is a kind of apartheid: when a country over-rule another one, dictate the laws, give itself the right to create law to make land stealing legal, it needs to be punished.

Palestine is maybe not the only issue in the agenda during election? having followed quite a lot of elections in Israel, it is the MAIN topic, yes, especially from the rigt/far right/bigot side.

The world (yes the world) thinks illegal settlement is a MAJOR problem to have peace, and yet Israel continue to give a middle finger to everybody, arguing some old stupid diatribes. So you may be tired to read the same thing over and over again; guess what? most of the world to see the settlements growing again and again and fail to do anything

 

Ah, another member of the pitchfork brigade.

 

If you hold that Israel should be "punished", rather than that the conflict should be "resolved", it casts most of your views in a certain light. Not a very constructive or objective one, at that. I get it that many posters find it hard to discuss these topics in a less than prejudiced manner and hence the usual hyperbole and misinformation. Examples in hand, there isn't a new illegal settlement put up every month, and as posted earlier may wish to review de Klerk's take on the comparisons made between South Africa and Israel. 

 

With regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and Israeli elections, you are simply off mark. It features, but it is not consistently the main topic around which elections revolve, nor necessarily the issue which determines how Israelis vote.

 

Most countries do see the ongoing Israeli settlement effort in the West Bank as illegal, and as being an obstacle with regard to chances of resolving the conflict. My own opinion is not different to that.

 

Speaking of diatribes, non of the above addresses previous criticism posted at views advocating a hypothetical boycott. Not that the hypothetical boycott is much on-topic anyway.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎14‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 10:35 AM, thetruth revealer said:

Never gonna have peace in the world until this will be resolved.

 Sadly true what we are tolerating and even support .

Its a shame for the whole humanity and a disgrace for the UN.

The UN is a complete waste of space and money. As long as the US has veto rights nothing will happen on Palestine that the Israelis don't want.

 

Re the OP, I hope to see Israeli soldiers dragging settlers kicking and screaming from their illegal settlement, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Netanyahu is in a Catch 22.

 

If evacuation is cancelled with Amona being included in the current proposed Legalization Bill to backdate approval on illegal outposts on Palestinian owned land, it may prompt Obama not to veto any UN moves against this current land grab in the Security Council, and may encourage the Palestinians to bring forward complaints before the ICC.

 

If the forced evacuation does take place the images are bound to upset Netanyahu's fanatical far right colleagues.

 

"Members of the security cabinet were warned in a meeting on Sunday, which concerned the evacuation of the unauthorized outpost of Amona, that the proposed law to legalize such settlements could lead to the opening of a criminal investigation in the International Criminal Court in the Hague against Israeli leaders."

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.755837

 

The fudge solution proposed by some Israeli politicians is to sweep the matter temporarily under the carpet by evacuating the fanatics to some nearby Palestinian land until the new US admin takes over, thus giving Trump one of his first headaches.

 

"According to Israeli rights group Peace Now, the latest Israeli government compromise would see the relocation of 40 settler families to nearby land privately owned by Palestinians
“The Israeli government is replacing one land theft by another,” Peace Now said in a statement on Tuesday. “It is willing to crush basic rights of Palestinians, bend Israeli law and violate international law -- all in order to satisfy 41 families who knowingly settled on private Palestinian lands."

 

http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=774421

 

The Amona settlers declined the government offer anyhow. Mainly because they suspect that the government could not follow through due to legal complications. At this time, they are preparing for forced evacuation, which is supposed to happen "soon".

 

Netanyahu will probably not be too politically damaged, unless things really get out of hand during the evacuation. One thing he does well is single out others to shift the blame on. In this case, I think he managed to position himself as the relatively responsible grown up in the government (relative to the right wing "opposition" within his coalition). Not annoying the outgoing administration was among his chief concerns, and doubt he'll do anything to risk that, unless given some specific assurances.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Ah, another member of the pitchfork brigade.

 

If you hold that Israel should be "punished", rather than that the conflict should be "resolved", it casts most of your views in a certain light. Not a very constructive or objective one, at that. I get it that many posters find it hard to discuss these topics in a less than prejudiced manner and hence the usual hyperbole and misinformation. Examples in hand, there isn't a new illegal settlement put up every month, and as posted earlier may wish to review de Klerk's take on the comparisons made between South Africa and Israel. 

 

With regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and Israeli elections, you are simply off mark. It features, but it is not consistently the main topic around which elections revolve, nor necessarily the issue which determines how Israelis vote.

 

Most countries do see the ongoing Israeli settlement effort in the West Bank as illegal, and as being an obstacle with regard to chances of resolving the conflict. My own opinion is not different to that.

 

Speaking of diatribes, non of the above addresses previous criticism posted at views advocating a hypothetical boycott. Not that the hypothetical boycott is much on-topic anyway.

Israeli governments have not listened to reason since 1967, so the only way they will be "persuaded" to cease their illegal occupation of Palestinian land is by punishment for continuing to illegally occupy other people's land.

Unfortunately, given Trump's comments, I do not expect any relief for the Palestinians any time soon.

[DavidVincent]

44 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Ah, another member of the pitchfork brigade.

 

If you hold that Israel should be "punished", rather than that the conflict should be "resolved", it casts most of your views in a certain light. Not a very constructive or objective one, at that. I get it that many posters find it hard to discuss these topics in a less than prejudiced manner and hence the usual hyperbole and misinformation. Examples in hand, there isn't a new illegal settlement put up every month, and as posted earlier may wish to review de Klerk's take on the comparisons made between South Africa and Israel. 

 

With regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and Israeli elections, you are simply off mark. It features, but it is not consistently the main topic around which elections revolve, nor necessarily the issue which determines how Israelis vote.

 

Most countries do see the ongoing Israeli settlement effort in the West Bank as illegal, and as being an obstacle with regard to chances of resolving the conflict. My own opinion is not different to that.

 

Speaking of diatribes, non of the above addresses previous criticism posted at views advocating a hypothetical boycott. Not that the hypothetical boycott is much on-topic anyway.

And another member of the I know better brigade if I may say as well.

Many countries tried to resolve the conflict, Israel always answered with a No. Many resolutions were disccused at the UN, the US veto killed them all.

I do not see you write a lot of concrete solutions, all that I can read is that, everybody who is against the position of Israel government or the current situation toward illegal situation, are wrong, hateful and side for the Palestinian.

So whatever you may think from your ivory tower is not what the majority of the world see the situation : Israel do not care of what the world think, it is a country where religion is so deep rooted in its politic that they do not care of whatever the world try to do.

Yes the apartheid situation was different, however the goal of the boycott and sanctions are the same : make the people open their eyes, force the government to change the way it deals with the bigots and as Israel is a so-called democracy, let the israeli people know the world is upset at them. As the "divine" is melted with politic there, there is no other way to do it.

If your opinion toward west bank settlement is illegal, which i am happy to read, then what solution do you think would be good? cause as far as i can read the map evolution of West Bank, a long term solution will arise, when the west bank will be so destructed that nothing could be reversed.

France has put on the table a new law which infuriate Israel : force them to mention if the goods come from colonies. Why are they so upset if what they think is legal and not an issue? They seems to be quite proud of their settlements, maybe they should be proud their products come from "their land", right? As the main topic is an illegal settlement where the bigots don't want to move, and will probably win the right to stay, they should have their product labelled "made in Amona" and see how people around the world react. If it is an economical failure and the Hand of God do not help them, maybe they will move or try to find a solution.

So far those people are the main reason of the feud between Israel and Palestinian, and as long as their government is not strict and firm against them, the sanctions from the people (and not the goverments) is the only solution.

Since Trump was elected, those same people rejoice, thinking they have now a All pass and can grab what they want...

So I ask you again : what is a short term solution to this? as everybody who do not side with Israel seems to be in the wrong? Honest question

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Israeli governments have not listened to reason since 1967, so the only way they will be "persuaded" to cease their illegal occupation of Palestinian land is by punishment for continuing to illegally occupy other people's land.

Unfortunately, given Trump's comments, I do not expect any relief for the Palestinians any time soon.

 

Interesting to note the similarities between religious zealots way of thinking and haters opining on these topics. Not quite the same when it comes do dissociation with facts, complex reality and ambivalence, but not all that different. Bringing up Trump, in this context, is an apt reminder for the post fact era we seem to be entering. Some seem to embrace it wholeheartedly .

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, DavidVincent said:

And another member of the I know better brigade if I may say as well.

Many countries tried to resolve the conflict, Israel always answered with a No. Many resolutions were disccused at the UN, the US veto killed them all.

I do not see you write a lot of concrete solutions, all that I can read is that, everybody who is against the position of Israel government or the current situation toward illegal situation, are wrong, hateful and side for the Palestinian.

So whatever you may think from your ivory tower is not what the majority of the world see the situation : Israel do not care of what the world think, it is a country where religion is so deep rooted in its politic that they do not care of whatever the world try to do.

Yes the apartheid situation was different, however the goal of the boycott and sanctions are the same : make the people open their eyes, force the government to change the way it deals with the bigots and as Israel is a so-called democracy, let the israeli people know the world is upset at them. As the "divine" is melted with politic there, there is no other way to do it.

If your opinion toward west bank settlement is illegal, which i am happy to read, then what solution do you think would be good? cause as far as i can read the map evolution of West Bank, a long term solution will arise, when the west bank will be so destructed that nothing could be reversed.

France has put on the table a new law which infuriate Israel : force them to mention if the goods come from colonies. Why are they so upset if what they think is legal and not an issue? They seems to be quite proud of their settlements, maybe they should be proud their products come from "their land", right? As the main topic is an illegal settlement where the bigots don't want to move, and will probably win the right to stay, they should have their product labelled "made in Amona" and see how people around the world react. If it is an economical failure and the Hand of God do not help them, maybe they will move or try to find a solution.

So far those people are the main reason of the feud between Israel and Palestinian, and as long as their government is not strict and firm against them, the sanctions from the people (and not the goverments) is the only solution.

Since Trump was elected, those same people rejoice, thinking they have now a All pass and can grab what they want...

So I ask you again : what is a short term solution to this? as everybody who do not side with Israel seems to be in the wrong? Honest question

 

 

Well, I do know better, so in this sense, yes. Then again, not much into pitchforking, a bit of damper for some.

 

Actually, not so many countries were involved in serious attempts to solve the conflict. To put the nonsense in perspective,  and fact oriented footing - neither Arab countries, nor the Palestinians were very keen on peace overtures. Painting it as a one way street is the usual drivel. Same goes for Israel always saying "no" - unless one believes that the existing PNA came about as a result of such a "no". The US use of veto right with regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in explained here - Negroponte Doctrine. As observed in the past, some posters seem to have difficulties coming to terms with the idea that the US does not necessarily see things exactly as they do.

 

With regard to my views on conflict resolution: having, supposedly, joined the forum about a month ago, do feel free to browse posting history, you'll find what you're looking for there. Would serve you better than posting obvious untruths regarding my positions on these topics. Not sitting in any ivory tower, for quite a while now, thanks. And not too impressed with a newcomer anonymous poster pontificating, or claiming to speak for the "world". We've had many of these on the forum over the years.

 

There is no boycott nor international sanctions the way some posters fantasize about, and nothing along these lines in the making. Yet, for lack of any original thinking, some keep banging about it on and on. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. There was very little support suggested, in any of these topics, that such a hypothetical boycott would actually advance the Palestinian cause. More like the wishful thinking of posters who cannot or will not address the complexity of the situation. The same goes for the view that such a hypothetical boycott would be effectual without government level participation.

 

The last bit is evident from your ongoing referral to Israel as a whole.  Anyone not on the pitchfork brigade would know that there are multiple points of view, and that public opinion is split, if not fragmented, on a whole range of topics. Including issues pertaining to the conflict with the Palestinians. So when you post nonsense which amounts to asserting all Israelis support this or that, it leaves your previous claims of having a clue under some doubt.

 

Allow me to express further doubt with regard to calling your own question an honest one. First, I myself do not side with the policy of the Israeli government. Second, there are no short term or immediate solutions to the conflict in its entirety. And anyone who claims otherwise is basically a snake oil merchant. Anyone not discussing things as they relate to both side of the conflict - another snake oil merchant.

 

The illegal settlement of Amona ought to have been evacuated years ago. This is an ongoing affair within the larger context of the conflict. Pretty much what's happening now was posted on previous topics. While the current Amona episode seems to be a done thing, what with evacuation looming, it is rather a side show compared to the related over-reaching suggested legalization. Amona is but one settlement. If the coalition succeeds in passing the new bill, and if it will survive the scrutiny of the Supreme Court - then the situation will be royally screwed up. That's for the benefit of those thinking things cannot get worse.

 

[DavidVincent]

54 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Well, I do know better, so in this sense, yes. Then again, not much into pitchforking, a bit of damper for some.

 

Actually, not so many countries were involved in serious attempts to solve the conflict. To put the nonsense in perspective,  and fact oriented footing - neither Arab countries, nor the Palestinians were very keen on peace overtures. Painting it as a one way street is the usual drivel. Same goes for Israel always saying "no" - unless one believes that the existing PNA came about as a result of such a "no". The US use of veto right with regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in explained here - Negroponte Doctrine. As observed in the past, some posters seem to have difficulties coming to terms with the idea that the US does not necessarily see things exactly as they do.

 

With regard to my views on conflict resolution: having, supposedly, joined the forum about a month ago, do feel free to browse posting history, you'll find what you're looking for there. Would serve you better than posting obvious untruths regarding my positions on these topics. Not sitting in any ivory tower, for quite a while now, thanks. And not too impressed with a newcomer anonymous poster pontificating, or claiming to speak for the "world". We've had many of these on the forum over the years.

 

There is no boycott nor international sanctions the way some posters fantasize about, and nothing along these lines in the making. Yet, for lack of any original thinking, some keep banging about it on and on. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. There was very little support suggested, in any of these topics, that such a hypothetical boycott would actually advance the Palestinian cause. More like the wishful thinking of posters who cannot or will not address the complexity of the situation. The same goes for the view that such a hypothetical boycott would be effectual without government level participation.

 

The last bit is evident from your ongoing referral to Israel as a whole.  Anyone not on the pitchfork brigade would know that there are multiple points of view, and that public opinion is split, if not fragmented, on a whole range of topics. Including issues pertaining to the conflict with the Palestinians. So when you post nonsense which amounts to asserting all Israelis support this or that, it leaves your previous claims of having a clue under some doubt.

 

Allow me to express further doubt with regard to calling your own question an honest one. First, I myself do not side with the policy of the Israeli government. Second, there are no short term or immediate solutions to the conflict in its entirety. And anyone who claims otherwise is basically a snake oil merchant. Anyone not discussing things as they relate to both side of the conflict - another snake oil merchant.

 

The illegal settlement of Amona ought to have been evacuated years ago. This is an ongoing affair within the larger context of the conflict. Pretty much what's happening now was posted on previous topics. While the current Amona episode seems to be a done thing, what with evacuation looming, it is rather a side show compared to the related over-reaching suggested legalization. Amona is but one settlement. If the coalition succeeds in passing the new bill, and if it will survive the scrutiny of the Supreme Court - then the situation will be royally screwed up. That's for the benefit of those thinking things cannot get worse.

 

Well Your answer show clearly you think you know better than anybody who does not express the same view as you are.

I am not a newcomer, and being an "old chap" in thaivisa does not give you much credit, it tends to show the opposite in fact.

Lecturing me like you try to do is more amusing than offending. One more time you think you are right, because you're probably Jewish and therefore you should have some kind of better understanding of the situation. Unfortunately History proved it is wrong most of the time, and being too close from a subject, make you nonobjective..

I do not want to have an original thinking, I am quite glad to sidee with the majority of the world opinion on this subject. (just have a look at the percentage of countries who recognized Palestine as a state pis kind clear I think).

The situation is not so complicated : Israel still continue to settle, still do not want to have the help of other countries (and yes most of the time it is because of Israel refusal that nothing advance in peace treaty).

Regarding settlements in general, I am sorry to say it, even if you think it is wrong:settlements are a major problem for peace.

A boycott is easy to put in place without a government level participation, it has been proved numerous times and with the expansion of social media, it is even easier).

Allow me to express further doubt about you position on the conflict. Looking at your post history is useless, you are "against the settlements" but will never allow anything who can corner Israel as wrong. You proving my point by refusing to answer a simple question : what to do to force Israel to stop settle and steal land?

Many opinion among Israeli about the conflict? I am quite sure of it. A majority voting for a government clearly pro-settlements, approving a guy like Lieberman in it show also a lot about the mentality in this country.

How comes we could joke and pity trump voters and yet not say the same about Israel government or any government?

Most of your posts are about how the people are wrong, how uninformed we all are, while pointing a couple of links which are clearly not impartial neither..so long for a guy who pretend to lecture the "pitchforked, haters,..or worse", but nothing about YOUR view.

As you re quite quick to point OT things I will not put the Palestinian side of the problem, even if they are no angels and this is an euphemism.

Amona is one settlement among many others, lists are freely available on the web, videos of bigots living in them are also quite clear about their thinking.

So let's agree to disagree, but keep your judgments on posters for you if you don't want to be judged!

 

 

Edited December 15, 2016 by DavidVincent

[JingerBen]

1 hour ago, DavidVincent said:

Well Your answer show clearly you think you know better than anybody who does not express the same view as you are.

I am not a newcomer, and being an "old chap" in thaivisa does not give you much credit, it tends to show the opposite in fact.

Lecturing me like you try to do is more amusing than offending. One more time you think you are right, because you're probably Jewish and therefore you should have some kind of better understanding of the situation. Unfortunately History proved it is wrong most of the time, and being too close from a subject, make you nonobjective..

I do not want to have an original thinking, I am quite glad to sidee with the majority of the world opinion on this subject. (just have a look at the percentage of countries who recognized Palestine as a state pis kind clear I think).

The situation is not so complicated : Israel still continue to settle, still do not want to have the help of other countries (and yes most of the time it is because of Israel refusal that nothing advance in peace treaty).

Regarding settlements in general, I am sorry to say it, even if you think it is wrong:settlements are a major problem for peace.

A boycott is easy to put in place without a government level participation, it has been proved numerous times and with the expansion of social media, it is even easier).

Allow me to express further doubt about you position on the conflict. Looking at your post history is useless, you are "against the settlements" but will never allow anything who can corner Israel as wrong. You proving my point by refusing to answer a simple question : what to do to force Israel to stop settle and steal land?

Many opinion among Israeli about the conflict? I am quite sure of it. A majority voting for a government clearly pro-settlements, approving a guy like Lieberman in it show also a lot about the mentality in this country.

How comes we could joke and pity trump voters and yet not say the same about Israel government or any government?

Most of your posts are about how the people are wrong, how uninformed we all are, while pointing a couple of links which are clearly not impartial neither..so long for a guy who pretend to lecture the "pitchforked, haters,..or worse", but nothing about YOUR view.

As you re quite quick to point OT things I will not put the Palestinian side of the problem, even if they are no angels and this is an euphemism.

Amona is one settlement among many others, lists are freely available on the web, videos of bigots living in them are also quite clear about their thinking.

So let's agree to disagree, but keep your judgments on posters for you if you don't want to be judged!

 

 

Exceptionally good post.

[Morch]

21 minutes ago, DavidVincent said:

Well Your answer show clearly you think you know better than anybody who does not express the same view as you are.

I am not a newcomer, and being an "old chap" in thaivisa does not give you much credit, it tends to show the opposite in fact.

Lecturing me like you try to do is more amusing than offending. One more time you think you are right, because you're probably Jewish and therefore you should have some kind of better understanding of the situation. Unfortunately History proved it is wrong most of the time, and being too close from a subject, make you nonobjective..

I do not want to have an original thinking, I am quite glad to sidee with the majority of the world opinion on this subject. (just have a look at the percentage of countries who recognized Palestine as a state pis kind clear I think).

The situation is not so complicated : Israel still continue to settle, still do not want to have the help of other countries (and yes most of the time it is because of Israel refusal that nothing advance in peace treaty).

Regarding settlements in general, I am sorry to say it, even if you think it is wrong:settlements are a major problem for peace.

A boycott is easy to put in place without a government level participation, it has been proved numerous times and with the expansion of social media, it is even easier).

Allow me to express further doubt about you position on the conflict. Looking at your post history is useless, you are "against the settlements" but will never allow anything who can corner Israel as wrong. You proving my point by refusing to answer a simple question : what to do to force Israel to stop settle and steal land?

Many opinion among Israeli about the conflict? I am quite sure of it. A majority voting for a government clearly pro-settlements, approving a guy like Lieberman in it show also a lot about the mentality in this country.

How comes we could joke and pity trump voters and yet not say the same about Israel government or any government?

Most of your posts are about how the people are wrong, how uninformed we all are, while pointing a couple of links which are clearly not impartial neither..so long for a guy who pretend to lecture the "pitchforked, haters,..or worse", but nothing about YOUR view.

As you re quite quick to point OT things I will not put the Palestinian side of the problem, even if they are no angels and this is an euphemism.

Amona is one settlement among many others, lists are freely available on the web, videos of bigots living in them are also quite clear about their thinking.

So let's agree to disagree, but keep your judgments on posters for you if you don't want to be judged!

 

 

 

I am better informed than most posters regularly commenting on these topics. Take it as vanity, if you like, I see it as stating a fact. It does not preclude others having a different opinion on these matters. Being a longtime member is not, by itself is not an indication of superior knowledge, perhaps of perseverance. Credibility is a matter of perceptions over time, which does put newcomers at a certain disadvantage. The reference to the length of your own membership was to do with your incorrect description of my views, suggesting you are basing these on imagination rather than fact. The credibility of your posts was not judged by how long you've been around, but by their content.

 

And I get it, another one who heralds lack of relevant experience, knowledge and familiarity with the subject at hand as the hallmarks of better understanding. A rather popular view on this forum among the opinionated, yet not so informed. Sorry, not into the whole post fact thing, nor into inane one sided views or hate driven agendas.

 

Hard to tell if there's a language barrier here or simply twisting words. The "original thought" comment was made with reference to the boycott thing, which spin as you may, is not a widely accepted global view. Continuing to claim that I do not see the illegal settlements as an obstacle to peace is contrary to my previously (and often) stated position. The term "illegal" might give it away.

 

Stating that the situation not complicated is a joke, not an opinion. Laying blame for all the conflict, based on a specific time frame is not an honest position. Disregarding the accountability of the other side to anything and everything related to the conflict is ridiculous. And no, the efficacy of non-government level boycotts on issues pertaining to international relations was not proved "numerous times".

 

Allow me to doubt that you actually took time to review my posting history before pronouncing it a "useless" exercise. Certainly not in the short time between your posts. This is, again, another instance of choosing to be opinionated over informed. My position is hardly a defense of Israeli government policy, but rather a more balanced take then that advocated by the pitchfork brigade. And no "point" was proven - just no intention of playing your game by over-simplifying solutions.

 

Israelis do not vote "for a government", but for political parties from which a coalition emerges. The voters do not have a say in the creation of the coalition, which is more often than not based on questionable dealings and ethics. But seeing as you "followed many Israeli elections" you ought to have known this. Lieberman's party, for example, was added to the coalition long after the elections. And as an aside, Lieberman was one of the few right wing politicians who clearly said to the Amona settlers that they'd be evacuated.

 

The rest of your nonsense is getting strangely personal...kinda funny for a newcomer.

[JingerBen]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Well, I do know better, so in this sense, yes. Then again, not much into pitchforking, a bit of damper for some.

 

Actually, not so many countries were involved in serious attempts to solve the conflict. To put the nonsense in perspective,  and fact oriented footing - neither Arab countries, nor the Palestinians were very keen on peace overtures. Painting it as a one way street is the usual drivel. Same goes for Israel always saying "no" - unless one believes that the existing PNA came about as a result of such a "no". The US use of veto right with regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in explained here - Negroponte Doctrine. As observed in the past, some posters seem to have difficulties coming to terms with the idea that the US does not necessarily see things exactly as they do.

 

With regard to my views on conflict resolution: having, supposedly, joined the forum about a month ago, do feel free to browse posting history, you'll find what you're looking for there. Would serve you better than posting obvious untruths regarding my positions on these topics. Not sitting in any ivory tower, for quite a while now, thanks. And not too impressed with a newcomer anonymous poster pontificating, or claiming to speak for the "world". We've had many of these on the forum over the years.

 

There is no boycott nor international sanctions the way some posters fantasize about, and nothing along these lines in the making. Yet, for lack of any original thinking, some keep banging about it on and on. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. There was very little support suggested, in any of these topics, that such a hypothetical boycott would actually advance the Palestinian cause. More like the wishful thinking of posters who cannot or will not address the complexity of the situation. The same goes for the view that such a hypothetical boycott would be effectual without government level participation.

 

The last bit is evident from your ongoing referral to Israel as a whole.  Anyone not on the pitchfork brigade would know that there are multiple points of view, and that public opinion is split, if not fragmented, on a whole range of topics. Including issues pertaining to the conflict with the Palestinians. So when you post nonsense which amounts to asserting all Israelis support this or that, it leaves your previous claims of having a clue under some doubt.

 

Allow me to express further doubt with regard to calling your own question an honest one. First, I myself do not side with the policy of the Israeli government. Second, there are no short term or immediate solutions to the conflict in its entirety. And anyone who claims otherwise is basically a snake oil merchant. Anyone not discussing things as they relate to both side of the conflict - another snake oil merchant.

 

The illegal settlement of Amona ought to have been evacuated years ago. This is an ongoing affair within the larger context of the conflict. Pretty much what's happening now was posted on previous topics. While the current Amona episode seems to be a done thing, what with evacuation looming, it is rather a side show compared to the related over-reaching suggested legalization. Amona is but one settlement. If the coalition succeeds in passing the new bill, and if it will survive the scrutiny of the Supreme Court - then the situation will be royally screwed up. That's for the benefit of those thinking things cannot get worse.

 

Your final point is thought provoking.

It may be that the publicity surrounding the evacuation of Amona is a smoke screen for the legalization of many other illegal settlements.

The end result of this policy - a one-state reality - will be a disaster for Israel.

How will they live with the millions of Palestinians in the West Bank?

Grant them full civil and voting rights and Israel ceases to be a Jewish state.

Keep them confined to bantustans and the civilized nations of the world will do to Israel what they did to apartheid South Africa.