France, Russia reach compromise as Aleppo rescue uncertain

[webfact]

France, Russia reach compromise as Aleppo rescue uncertain

By KARIN LAUB and EDITH M. LEDERER

 

BEIRUT (AP) — France struck a compromise Sunday with Russia on a U.N. resolution that it said would prevent "mass atrocities" in besieged areas of Aleppo, where thousands of trapped civilians and rebel fighters await evacuation in freezing temperatures.

 

On the ground, prospects for swift evacuations from Aleppo and other besieged areas were thrown into doubt again Sunday after militants burned buses assigned to the rescue operation.

 

The Aleppo evacuations were to have been part of a wider deal that would simultaneously allow more than 2,000 sick and wounded people to leave two pro-government villages that have been besieged by Syrian rebels. Most villagers are Shiite Muslims, while most rebels are Sunni Muslims.

 

Six buses that were among those poised to enter the villages of Foua and Kfarya on Sunday were set on fire by unidentified militants, presumably to scuttle any deal.

 

A video posted online showed armed men near the burning buses as celebratory gunshots rang out. "The buses that came to evacuate the apostates have been burned," the narrator of the video said. He warned that no "Shiite pigs" would be allowed to leave the towns.

The video could not be verified independently, but was in line with AP reporting from the area.

 

Earlier Sunday, pro-Syrian government TV stations showed dozens of buses on stand-by at a crossing near eastern Aleppo, reportedly poised to resume evacuations from the opposition's last foothold in the city.

 

The evacuations had been suspended two days earlier amid mutual recriminations after several thousand people had been ferried out of the war zone. Thousands more desperate civilians are believed trapped in the city.

 

About 2,700 children were evacuated in the first rescue mission earlier this week, but hundreds more "are now waiting in freezing temperatures, close to the front lines," said Shushan Mebrahtu of the U.N. agency for children, UNICEF. "We are deeply worried."

 

Wissam Zarqa, an English teacher and Aleppo resident, said he went to an evacuation point on Sunday afternoon and found buses with evacuees on board, but that the vehicles did not move. The opposition's Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights also said the buses hadn't left the city.

 

A bus convoy with Aleppo evacuees was stuck for hours in a buffer zone between the front lines in the city, without food or water, according to aid officials familiar with the negotiations between the two sides.

 

Eastern Aleppo resident Rami Zien, who said he was on one of the buses "stuck in a no-man's land" between government and rebel control, told The Associated Press via messenger service that evacuees were stressed and frightened. "Government forces are just ahead of me and if anything goes wrong I'll be the first to die," he wrote.

 

Zien said evacuees were crammed 70 people to a bus, with many having no room to sit. He said the Red Crescent, which is facilitating the evacuation, had been unable to provide water. He said there were 50 to 60 buses in the convoy.

 

On Friday, a bus convoy carrying evacuees was stuck in government territory in Aleppo and was turned back after being searched.

 

The continued suspension of evacuations is throwing into disarray an Aleppo deal that had been brokered last week by Syria ally Russia and opposition supporter Turkey.

 

The deal marked a turning point in the country's civil war. With the opposition leaving Aleppo, Syrian President Bashar Assad has effectively reasserted his control over Syria's five largest cities and its Mediterranean coast nearly six years after a national movement to unseat him took hold.

 

At the United Nations, France and Russia announced agreement on a compromise U.N. resolution to deploy U.N. monitors to eastern Aleppo to ensure safe evacuations and immediate delivery of humanitarian aid.

 

France's U.N. ambassador, Francois Delattre, told reporters the compromise was reached after more than three hours of closed consultations on Sunday and the Security Council would vote on the resolution at 9 a.m. EST on Monday.

 

He said some countries want to report to their capitals overnight. He said he hoped for a positive vote, but that he remained cautious.

 

Russia's U.N. ambassador, Vitaly Churkin, told reporters before consultations that Moscow could not accept the French draft resolution unless it was changed. He presented council members with a rival text.

 

After the consultations, Churkin said a "good text" had been formulated.

 

The U.S. ambassador to the U.N., Samantha Power, said the resolution would quickly put more than 100 U.N. personnel on the ground to monitor evacuations. "The text contains all the elements for safe, secure, dignified evacuation, for humanitarian access to those who choose to remain in eastern Aleppo" and for protecting civilians, she said.

 

She said that following the siege in eastern Aleppo, there have been "many, many reports of people being pulled off buses and disappeared, whether into conscription or into torture chambers or killed outright." Deploying U.N. monitors would deter "some of the worst excesses," she said.

 

Delattre agreed. Approval of the resolution, he said, "would give us collectively the tools to avoid ... a situation in which, after the end of major military operations, forces including militias, would commit mass atrocities."

 

He said the resolution could also offer leverage to negotiate a broader cease-fire.

___

Lederer reported from the United Nations. Philip Issa in Beirut contributed to this report.

 

-- © Associated Press 2016-12-19

[craigt3365]

Too funny:

Quote

France struck a compromise Sunday with Russia on a U.N. resolution that it said would prevent "mass atrocities" in besieged areas of Aleppo, where thousands of trapped civilians and rebel fighters await evacuation in freezing temperatures.

 

A bit too late to prevent "mass atrocities" in Aleppo. 

[tonbridgebrit]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

 

 

A bit too late to prevent "mass atrocities" in Aleppo. 

The article says " The Aleppo evacuations were to have been part of a wider deal that would simultaneously allow more than 2,000 sick and wounded people to leave two pro-government villages that have been besieged by Syrian rebels. Most villagers are Shiite Muslims, while most rebels are Sunni Muslims."   It then carries on " Six buses that were among those poised to enter the villages of Foua and Kfarya on Sunday were set on fire by unidentified militants, presumably to scuttle any deal. "

Now, can we please sort something out here. The unidentified militants who set fire to the buses are bad people, right ? These militants are Syrian rebels, they are rebelling AGAINST Assad.

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by tonbridgebrit

[craigt3365]

2 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

The article says " The Aleppo evacuations were to have been part of a wider deal that would simultaneously allow more than 2,000 sick and wounded people to leave two pro-government villages that have been besieged by Syrian rebels. Most villagers are Shiite Muslims, while most rebels are Sunni Muslims."   It then carries on " Six buses that were among those poised to enter the villages of Foua and Kfarya on Sunday were set on fire by unidentified militants, presumably to scuttle any deal. "

Now, can we please sort something out here. The unidentified militants who set fire to the buses are bad people, right ? These militants are Syrian rebels, they are rebelling AGAINST Assad.

 

You are 100% correct.  There are ceasefire violations from both sides.  Easy thing to do would let UN observers in to report on what's actually going on.  But we know Assad doesn't like people to know the facts.  Otherwise, that would have happened a long time ago.

 

What a mess.  And what a humanitarian disaster.

[tonbridgebrit]

1 minute ago, craigt3365 said:

You are 100% correct.  There are ceasefire violations from both sides.  Easy thing to do would let UN observers in to report on what's actually going on.  But we know Assad doesn't like people to know the facts.  Otherwise, that would have happened a long time ago.

 

What a mess.  And what a humanitarian disaster.

When these situations happen, there is an obvious problem, right ?

As in, the rebels are there, in certain parts of the city. The fighting is over. The civilians are being evacuated. But basically, the Assad forces don't want to see the rebels 'slipping out' of the city ? Assad wants to look at the rebel areas of the city, let the civilians go, but he also wants to know who are the rebels, and have them 'removed'.  The rebels are obviously not going to accept this ?

 

[craigt3365]

4 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

When these situations happen, there is an obvious problem, right ?

As in, the rebels are there, in certain parts of the city. The fighting is over. The civilians are being evacuated. But basically, the Assad forces don't want to see the rebels 'slipping out' of the city ? Assad wants to look at the rebel areas of the city, let the civilians go, but he also wants to know who are the rebels, and have them 'removed'.  The rebels are obviously not going to accept this ?

 

Rebels is a tough term, as we know there are many groups involved and they are forever changing.  Whether rebels against Assad or ISIS, they won't give up easily.  True rebels won't accept Assad at all.  ISIS are just terrorists.  No easy answers and no easy paths to deal with this.  A real mess!

[Stargeezr]

,Assad  is as  much, an animal, who  speaks  English,  and

presently has the help  of Russia.  When  this war  is  over

he  will be  living  there  or in  Iran.

Geezer

[tonbridgebrit]

3 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Rebels is a tough term, as we know there are many groups involved and they are forever changing.  Whether rebels against Assad or ISIS, they won't give up easily.  True rebels won't accept Assad at all.  ISIS are just terrorists.  No easy answers and no easy paths to deal with this.  A real mess!

"Whether rebels against Assad or ISIS"   ???

I think you're trying to take attention away from the main point. All the rebels are against Assad, right ? Now, some of the rebels are ISIS. But some are not, and some of the rebels who are not ISIS, well they don't like ISIS. In Aleppo, yes, there's rebel groups in there, who are not ISIS. But, surely, the fighting in Aleppo has been the rebels fighting Assad. There hasn't been any (or much) fighting by whatever rebel group against another rebel group ?

You mention ISIS being terrorists. Well, you accept right, of all the rebel groups in Syria, ISIS are actually the biggest single group ?  Or,  previously they were. As for the Syrian civilians, do you reckon they'd rather have Assad in charge, rather than ISIS ?

Back to Aleppo. I don't know this. But the peace deal negotiated. Has it been arranged for all rebels to be put onto buses, and they can then be transported out of Aleppo ?  As in, the rebels are actually being allowed to leave, and go where they want to go ? Or has Assad demanded that all rebels must surrender ?

 

[craigt3365]

I don't think anybody can correctly define "rebels".  It's used too broadly and is constantly changing.  I'm no expert on how these groups are setup or aligned.  This mess started with dissatisfaction towards Assad.  ISIS took advantage of the power vacuum, and here we are.  Same thing happened in Iraq.  You don't see ISIS making footholds like this in countries with strong and good leadership.  Like Jordan.  Or even Saudi Arabia.

 

Those against Assad have repeatedly stated they won't stop until Assad is gone.  What are you going to do, bomb the entire country until everybody is dead?  Not a good way to go, IMHO.

 

The saga continues!

[tonbridgebrit]

4 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

I don't think anybody can correctly define "rebels".  It's used too broadly and is constantly changing.  I'm no expert on how these groups are setup or aligned.  This mess started with dissatisfaction towards Assad.  ISIS took advantage of the power vacuum, and here we are.  Same thing happened in Iraq.  You don't see ISIS making footholds like this in countries with strong and good leadership.  Like Jordan.  Or even Saudi Arabia.

 

Those against Assad have repeatedly stated they won't stop until Assad is gone.  What are you going to do, bomb the entire country until everybody is dead?  Not a good way to go, IMHO.

 

The saga continues!

Well, how about we define "rebel" as any group that is rebelling against Assad ?  As in, all those who are fighting against Assad in Syria, are "rebels" ??

ISIS.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11140860/Qatar-and-Saudi-Arabia-have-ignited-time-bomb-by-funding-global-spread-of-radical-Islam.html

According to the above article from the Daily Telegraph, a mainstream British newspaper, well, "Qatar and Saudi Arabia were primarily responsible for the rise of the extremist Islam that inspires Isil terrorists."
And "the two Gulf states have spent billions of dollars on promoting a militant and proselytising interpretation of their faith derived from Abdul Wahhab, an eighteenth century scholar, and based on the Salaf, or the original followers of the Prophet."

Basically, they're trying to say, that Saudi Arabia and Qatar donated large sums of money to promote a certain philosophy or way of thinking. And it is this philosophy that has been the inspiration and creation of ISIS.


There is further speculation, from wikileaks, that people like Obama and Hillary Clinton have known for years, that Saudi Arabia and Qatar were funding ISIS.


In a way, it all makes sense. We know that Washington backed the Al-Nusra Front, this is Al-Qaeda's branch in Syria. Seeing as Washington did this, is it surprising that Washington did little to clamp down on Saudi and Qatari funding for ISIS ?
I mean, the attitude towards the Al-Nusra Front, was to watch them remove Assad, and then go and bomb them AFTER Assad had gone. Surely, the same attitude could be given to ISIS ? As in, watch ISIS take part in the removal of Assad, and then bomb them AFTER Assad has gone. 



"Those against Assad have repeatedly stated they won't stop until Assad is gone.  What are you going to do, bomb the entire country until everybody is dead?"
Well, if outsiders stop funding the rebels, surely, the rebels will run out of bullets after a while. And surely, Assad will remove them all ?
I mean, Assad has already removed the rebels from Aleppo. What's the next place to have rebels removed ? And Aleppo is now at peace, right ?

Bomb the entire country ? Well, there's two options. Option one. Leave Syria alone, and let Assad re-take all of Syria, he's already re-taken Aleppo.
Or option two, watch the rebels remove Assad, and then Washington has to bomb any of the rebels who are against the US and Europe.

I think option one is better.

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by tonbridgebrit

[Opl]

1/ Iran Buying Syria Lands, Territories, And Properties " Iran isincreasingly getting paid back via contracts in Syrian real state by buying Syrian lands. This gives Iran considerable amount of power over Syria in the long-term. The additional shift is that the investments are not only done with Assad, but also with many Shiite militia groups. Even If the war ends, Iran will be single most important player in Syria economically. 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/majid-rafizadeh/iran-buying-syria-lands-t_b_12303128.html

 

2/ Iran carries out a plan to change Syria’s demographics : " the next part of Tehran’s plan will be bringing Shiites loyal to the Tehran regime from around the world – from Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon and other countries – to settle in Syria, with these moves actually being set into motion some time ago"

 

http://orient-news.net/en/news_show/114053/0/Iran-carries-out-a-plan-to-change-Syrias-demographics

 

3/ Turkey warns US against demographic change in Syria's Raqqa : Turkey fears an influx of Kurds to Raqqa will change the ethnic composition of the Arab-majority area close to its border.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-warns-us-against-demographic-change-syrias-raqqa-592973047

 

[Gene1960]

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=55830#.WFf8RsvXehB

Security Council unanimously approves sending UN monitors to war-torn Aleppo

Through a unanimously adopted resolution, the Council also requested the UN to ensure further deployment of staff for Monitoring and reporting on the evacuations, as needed and demanded all parties to provide these monitors with safe, immediate and unimpeded access.

Noting that that “urgent humanitarian evacuations and assistance are now needed by a large number of Aleppo inhabitants,” the Council demanded that all parties provide the UN and it is implementation partners with safe, immediate and unimpeded access to ensure that humanitarian assistance reaches people “through the most direct route, in order to meet basic needs, including the provision of medical care.”

The French-led resolution also calls on all parties to respect and protect all medical and humanitarian personnel, “their means of transport and equipment, as well as hospitals and other medical facilities throughout the country.”

[craigt3365]

12 hours ago, Opl said:

1/ Iran Buying Syria Lands, Territories, And Properties " Iran isincreasingly getting paid back via contracts in Syrian real state by buying Syrian lands. This gives Iran considerable amount of power over Syria in the long-term. The additional shift is that the investments are not only done with Assad, but also with many Shiite militia groups. Even If the war ends, Iran will be single most important player in Syria economically. 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/majid-rafizadeh/iran-buying-syria-lands-t_b_12303128.html

 

2/ Iran carries out a plan to change Syria’s demographics : " the next part of Tehran’s plan will be bringing Shiites loyal to the Tehran regime from around the world – from Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon and other countries – to settle in Syria, with these moves actually being set into motion some time ago"

 

http://orient-news.net/en/news_show/114053/0/Iran-carries-out-a-plan-to-change-Syrias-demographics

 

3/ Turkey warns US against demographic change in Syria's Raqqa : Turkey fears an influx of Kurds to Raqqa will change the ethnic composition of the Arab-majority area close to its border.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-warns-us-against-demographic-change-syrias-raqqa-592973047

 

I read an article some time ago where Iran was going into schools with their own teachers.  Changing from whatever they were teaching to Shiite.  Scary stuff.  As I've said before, the biggest problem in the ME is the Saudi Arabia/Iran conflict.

[Morch]

On 12/19/2016 at 7:34 PM, tonbridgebrit said:

Well, how about we define "rebel" as any group that is rebelling against Assad ?  As in, all those who are fighting against Assad in Syria, are "rebels" ??

ISIS.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11140860/Qatar-and-Saudi-Arabia-have-ignited-time-bomb-by-funding-global-spread-of-radical-Islam.html

According to the above article from the Daily Telegraph, a mainstream British newspaper, well, "Qatar and Saudi Arabia were primarily responsible for the rise of the extremist Islam that inspires Isil terrorists."
And "the two Gulf states have spent billions of dollars on promoting a militant and proselytising interpretation of their faith derived from Abdul Wahhab, an eighteenth century scholar, and based on the Salaf, or the original followers of the Prophet."

Basically, they're trying to say, that Saudi Arabia and Qatar donated large sums of money to promote a certain philosophy or way of thinking. And it is this philosophy that has been the inspiration and creation of ISIS.


There is further speculation, from wikileaks, that people like Obama and Hillary Clinton have known for years, that Saudi Arabia and Qatar were funding ISIS.


In a way, it all makes sense. We know that Washington backed the Al-Nusra Front, this is Al-Qaeda's branch in Syria. Seeing as Washington did this, is it surprising that Washington did little to clamp down on Saudi and Qatari funding for ISIS ?
I mean, the attitude towards the Al-Nusra Front, was to watch them remove Assad, and then go and bomb them AFTER Assad had gone. Surely, the same attitude could be given to ISIS ? As in, watch ISIS take part in the removal of Assad, and then bomb them AFTER Assad has gone. 



"Those against Assad have repeatedly stated they won't stop until Assad is gone.  What are you going to do, bomb the entire country until everybody is dead?"
Well, if outsiders stop funding the rebels, surely, the rebels will run out of bullets after a while. And surely, Assad will remove them all ?
I mean, Assad has already removed the rebels from Aleppo. What's the next place to have rebels removed ? And Aleppo is now at peace, right ?

Bomb the entire country ? Well, there's two options. Option one. Leave Syria alone, and let Assad re-take all of Syria, he's already re-taken Aleppo.
Or option two, watch the rebels remove Assad, and then Washington has to bomb any of the rebels who are against the US and Europe.

I think option one is better.

 

 

One issue with using "rebels" is that posters such as yourself quickly use dodgy logic to "deduce" that all those fighting Assad are extreme Islamic terrorists. I don't think the persistence of this argument, indicates anything but sticking to a preconceived position on the conflict. There were enough posts on these topics detailing differences between groups involved, the way allegiances shifted and the various (often conflicting) interests they represent. Over simplification is either an easy way to deal with complex situations, or a tool to promote an agenda. Reducing the situation into A or B options is as over simplified as it can get.

 

Assad, on his own could not remove opposing forces from Syria. Not earlier in the conflict and not without aid from Russia, Iran and Hezbollah. Seems like a double standard is applied concerning the expressed wish for outside intervention to cease. As discussed earlier, it is doubtful that Russia's vision includes prolonged, unlimited support for Assad's regime in taking back every Syrian village. The idea that Syria could be put back together exactly as it was is fantasy, regardless if Assad and his allies will succeed establishing control over most of the country.

[Morch]

On 12/20/2016 at 8:33 AM, craigt3365 said:

I read an article some time ago where Iran was going into schools with their own teachers.  Changing from whatever they were teaching to Shiite.  Scary stuff.  As I've said before, the biggest problem in the ME is the Saudi Arabia/Iran conflict.

 

I don't know that it's about conversion. Some of the Shia sects in the ME practice somewhat different versions than the Iranian "mainstream" one. In part, this religious instruction is means to establish conformity and obedience to the "center".

[Opl]

On ‎20‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 2:33 AM, craigt3365 said:

I read an article some time ago where Iran was going into schools with their own teachers.  Changing from whatever they were teaching to Shiite.  Scary stuff.  As I've said before, the biggest problem in the ME is the Saudi Arabia/Iran conflict.

 

About Iran / Saudi Arabia , I just read this article ( french press Le Monde article by Christophe Ayad ) that summarizes it well , translation of some extracts:   :

 

1/ Access to the Mediterranean  Sea is essential for Iran for security reasons (the direct delivery of sophisticated weapons to Lebanese Hezbollah, front-line against Israel) and energy (the export of Iranian oil and gas to the Union European Union).

 

- > Iran has succeeded in building an almost continuous corridor of access to the Mediterranean Sea through direct or indirect control of territories in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon by militias, governments and allies interposed.

  This thesis,is developed in an article in The Guardian :  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/08/iran-iraq-syria-isis-land-corridor    

 

-> this is  confirmed by the announcement in December of the existence of a Russian-Iranian military base in Syria. http://www.worldtribune.com/iranian-security-chief-reveals-iran-russia-share-military-base-in-syria/

 

2/ Iran is the only country in the region that knows how to mix soft and hard power, build alliances without losing sight of its interests, mobilize religious faith (Shiite) and political rationality in turn, to control without directly intervening.

Three challenges still await Iran:

-> co-management with Russia of his victory in Syria;

-> The risk of Israel taking the initiative in confrontation;

-> And the uncertainty created by the election of Donald Trump, who never concealed his hostility towards the Islamic Republic.

 

There remains, finally, an insurmountable obstacle to this patient and cynical strategy of nibbling in the Middle East: although Iran is a Muslim country, it remains a foreign power in the Arab world.
 

3/ With the fall of Aleppo, the Saudi defeat is consummated in Syria.

 

Worse, the war launched in Yemen by Riyadh (spring  2015)  to drive the Houthis out of power, Shiite rebels suspected of proximity to Iran, turns to the military, humanitarian and media fiasco.

During fall 2015, Houthi fighters repeatedly fired missiles in the direction of major Saudi cities, including Jeddah and Mecca.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Opl