Sor Por Kor land - a problem ?

[SGD]

Wife's mother has 20 rai of Sor Por Kor land outside Buriram which she wants to sell to her daughter (my wife) as it has a loan on it of a few hundred thousand due next year. The idea being that my wife pays off the loan and they transfer the land between them at whatever price.

 

On all the above, I have no problem.

 

However, if we want to do something with the land, such as building a house, then the long term security of the land title is a question I need to understand.

 

From this resource http://www.thailand-lawyer.com/land-title-deeds.html I read that:

 

Sor Por Kor 4-01: This is an agricultural title deed, usually found in rural areas. It is Government land that is transferred for agricultural purposes to needy families. Residence is allowed on a portion of the land. It is difficult for a non-Thai to obtain an interest in this type of land deed.

 

Not looking to put up a mansion but I guess something in the 3-5m range.

 

My concerns are that if the land cannot legally be transferred outside the family, then how does the mother pass it to her daughter when she bought it from another unconnected person ? Without any malice, I know both mother and daughter believe that it can be "sorted out" at the local land office. Perhaps it can ? Perhaps the original owner, who received the land from the government (when ?) never had their name on any paperwork ? or perhaps the transfer is "legal" as all parties involved are somehow listed as relatives - they probably are distant ones in any case.

 

Of course, my concerns are not to be able to sell in the future as that won't happen but rather that a) my wife has a western surname so all involved will recognise there is a westerner involved and b) that at some point in the future, a previous owner or land office or government, quite fancying the house built on the land, makes up some story to throw not me but my wife off "her" land.

[Peterw42]

My understanding of Sor Por Kor land, is as you say government land given to poor people for farming etc. The land cannot be brought, sold, developed or mortgaged, only passed on the heirs. So mother to daughter should be fine. I dont know of any rules about if a Thai is married to a Westerner they cant own that land, as the Thai person is the owner (as with all land). I think there may be restrictions on the normal lease and usufruct that a westerner can usually have over land.

One thing to consider is, I believe Sor Por Kor land is not supposed to be mortgaged or used as collateral for a loan, therefore any money paid (or loans paid off) will not be recognized by the land office, legally etc. Wife is paying off mums debt and inheriting a property, the two are not linked.

Talk to a lawyer.

[TravelerEastWest]

20 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

My understanding of Sor Por Kor land, is as you say government land given to poor people for farming etc. The land cannot be brought, sold, developed or mortgaged, only passed on the heirs. So mother to daughter should be fine. I dont know of any rules about if a Thai is married to a Westerner they cant own that land, as the Thai person is the owner (as with all land). I think there may be restrictions on the normal lease and usufruct that a westerner can usually have over land.

One thing to consider is, I believe Sor Por Kor land is not supposed to be mortgaged or used as collateral for a loan, therefore any money paid (or loans paid off) will not be recognized by the land office, legally etc. Wife is paying off mums debt and inheriting a property, the two are not linked.

Talk to a lawyer.

 

Exactly.

 

Forget about building a nice house you asking to lose the land which is only for poor Thai citizens and only for family farming not for resale.

 

There is no land title.

 

The land can't be sold at all only inherited by children.

 

Unless there are certain types of permits?

[Peterw42]

 
Exactly.
 
Forget about building a nice house you asking to lose the land which is only for poor Thai citizens and only for family farming not for resale.
 
There is no land title.
 
The land can't be sold at all only inherited by children.
 
Unless there are certain types of permits?

If you think about it, it's not so bad. OP builds a house, the wife can't sell it out from under him, or mortgage the farm for a pick up truck and a karaoke machine.

But none of the usual protection like a usufruct or 20 year lease etc.

[taninthai]

Whenever there is a westerner about family elders want to sell land to their own siblings,,,, ,when no westerners around the land is always given free to there siblings????

[phantomfiddler]

Land stays in the family, the only change is that a farang parts with usually a considerable amount of cast. Somewhat similar to giving one a white elephant

[taninthai]

2 hours ago, SGD said:

Not looking to put up a mansion but I guess something in the 3-5m range.

That price range will indeed build quite a nice mansion if you know what your doing.

Sor por kor land fine for Thais ,they can mostly do what they want and get away with it..... If nosey people see there is a westerner involved could become a problem

[chilidog]

There is a village I know of where all the land there is sor por kor and they all have houses built on them, also

 they buy and sale the land any time they want. The paper work is handled through the pu yai ban so if your

not in good with him then hard times ahead.

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

2 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

 

Exactly.

 

Forget about building a nice house you asking to lose the land which is only for poor Thai citizens and only for family farming not for resale.

 

There is no land title.

 

The land can't be sold at all only inherited by children.

 

Unless there are certain types of permits?

This is what I don't understand the OP say's its got a loan on it. This can't be a normal bank loan as banks wont take this land as security. Although the "owners" can't sell it but the government can however take the land away.

[inkorat]

If your wife's mother purchased this from another "unconnected party" as Sor Por Kor land, then there is already a potential problem. If she upgraded it herself to Sor Por Kor land and your wife is her daughter, transfer may be possible. It really depends on how much land your wife already owns (<50 rai), she has no work income, she is not a enrollled student and what will the the Sor Por Kor officer agree to do.

 

This land type is for really used just for poor farmers and they are allowed to build a small home on the property.  There is no legal transferable title outside the immediate family and who knows if they will ever upgrade these in the future to a title deed that is transferable.

 

In the villages, they are transferring use rights of this type of land with a method I call "inflated loans", with the buyer having the right to use the property until the inflated loan is repaid. 

 

If possible, it is much better to buy a piece of land that has a full title deed and record a ufrastruct or lease in your name.

 

 

[louse1953]

Thai people think they "know" a lot about the law,but  it is all based on rumour,lies and straight out bs,in my experience.Even when told the facts they will say somebody that knows somebody did this or that.They are shocked when things don't go their way.

[louse1953]

2 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

My understanding of Sor Por Kor land, is as you say government land given to poor people for farming etc. The land cannot be brought, sold, developed or mortgaged, only passed on the heirs. So mother to daughter should be fine. I dont know of any rules about if a Thai is married to a Westerner they cant own that land, as the Thai person is the owner (as with all land). I think there may be restrictions on the normal lease and usufruct that a westerner can usually have over land.

One thing to consider is, I believe Sor Por Kor land is not supposed to be mortgaged or used as collateral for a loan, therefore any money paid (or loans paid off) will not be recognized by the land office, legally etc. Wife is paying off mums debt and inheriting a property, the two are not linked.

Talk to a lawyer.

The last sentence is what you should do,and find one and go by yourself.In actual fact he and his wife are paying off mums debt.Do what ever you want with this land,but don't build on it.

[louse1953]

1 hour ago, taninthai said:

Whenever there is a westerner about family elders want to sell land to their own siblings,,,, ,when no westerners around the land is always given free to there siblings????

Spot on mate.

[louse1953]

13 minutes ago, SOUTHERNSTAR said:

This is what I don't understand the OP say's its got a loan on it. This can't be a normal bank loan as banks wont take this land as security. Although the "owners" can't sell it but the government can however take the land away.

If there is an actual loan,then it would be a loan shark.Suggest op has a look at the loan papers and get an independent person outside the village to look.If the family get a bit uppity about that,then that's a red flag.If it is your wife money,up to her,if it is yours,take it easy.

[khunPer]

Lots of Sor Por Kor land is traded between villagers, often just with some standard sales- or land-transfer-agreement from the local bookstore, and signed by Head-of-Village as witness. The locals in Surin and Buriram pays relative high prices per rai for that kind of land – up to 100,000 baht a rai is not unusual – well knowing the conditions, as it seem like everybody expect that the land shall be upgraded as soon as the Land Office has time to do it.

 

OP is concerned about the owner before his wife's mother. The previous owner can be related in some way, many – if not most – villagers are related. If the mum has a properly signed Agreement and the signed photo-copies of previous owner's ID-cards, then that is what many villagers considers as enough.

 

I believe that OP's wife will be the right to ask if it's safe to do the transfer, as she knows the village and easily can ask around about what experience others have; or ask Head-of-Village. In my view it's very unlikely that a previous owner can claim anything back, if a proper Sales- or Transfer Agreement has been made. You wife's surname should not be a problem, as she still has a Thai ID-card, and foreigners cannot own land in Thailand; sometimes a foreigners has been asked to sign a statement at the Land Office, declaring that his wife buys the land for her own money, but that seem to be for Nor Sor 3 and Chanote title deeds. Again, Head-of-Village and other villagers may know the answer, as Land Officers can interpret rules slightly different from area to area.

 

And as always said about "investing in a Thai mansion" – you shall be able to count the loss and move on – 3-5 million baht is relative, and can be anything in between a grab in the pocket, and a fortune...

Edited December 27, 2016 by khunPer

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, louse1953 said:

If there is an actual loan,then it would be a loan shark.Suggest op has a look at the loan papers and get an independent person outside the village to look.If the family get a bit uppity about that,then that's a red flag.If it is your wife money,up to her,if it is yours,take it easy.

Not always – villages were given a government allotment that farmers could borrow at (very) low interest, using their Sor Por Kor land as security, the deed would be given to a bank (probably a government bank). There has been at least two lots of government based low interest loans to farmers within recent years.

 

And if it's a private loan, which in that case shall be not over 15 percent annual interest to be legal, a Court can actually decide to take the Sor Por Kor title deed in custody, during an in-court agreed payment term, and if payments defaults the Court will sell the land.

[SGD]

16 hours ago, inkorat said:

......

 

In the villages, they are transferring use rights of this type of land with a method I call "inflated loans", with the buyer having the right to use the property until the inflated loan is repaid. 

 

.....

 

 

 

This is exactly the situation. A few (low) hundred thousand baht lent for 3 years and the lender can use the land. That expires next year.

[SGD]

18 hours ago, phantomfiddler said:

Land stays in the family, the only change is that a farang parts with usually a considerable amount of cast. Somewhat similar to giving one a white elephant

 

18 hours ago, taninthai said:

Whenever there is a westerner about family elders want to sell land to their own siblings,,,, ,when no westerners around the land is always given free to there siblings????

 

My advice to relative newcomers would be to run and don't walk but we are in rather a different position here.

 

The family has 2 houses within 1km of this land. Mama lives in one and the other, a more traditional house is rented out. Roll on into the future and there is one sibling without a large income so it follows that no-one would stand in the way of them taking on the property as their own when mama dies. As we spend more time up country and envisage doing so in later years (next 20/30/40 years) then we need a house for occupation.

 

For sure we could spend X million and get a chanote somewhere but we'd still be spending on this land and we have no desire to farm it. Not now in any case. The money at Bt5m for a house is not a lot and I do appreciate it would give a nice house. We build mama's newer house around 6 years ago for around Bt2.5m.

 

It isn't really about buying it because there is a westerner involved. Mama can't easily pay back the debt so rather than lose the land we will pay it off and as a condition and to make sure there are no future debts, the land will need to be transferred. Some land nearby went for nearly 100k per rai of SPK title which I thought was madness. Chanote land is up to a million per rai and that is not some daft western price. Buriram is on the up as they say.

 

In the end, we are fortunate enough for my wife to pay for this out of our money, her money if you want to call it thus. As I have no interest in the title and cannot in any case own land, I only look for protection of her (our) investment. There is no option to rent and we want a place for the next decades, not for months. We have been together for nearly 15 years so I don't see any risk in that corner.

[SGD]

13 hours ago, khunPer said:

Not always – villages were given a government allotment that farmers could borrow at (very) low interest, using their Sor Por Kor land as security, the deed would be given to a bank (probably a government bank). There has been at least two lots of government based low interest loans to farmers within recent years.

 

And if it's a private loan, which in that case shall be not over 15 percent annual interest to be legal, a Court can actually decide to take the Sor Por Kor title deed in custody, during an in-court agreed payment term, and if payments defaults the Court will sell the land.

 

There are multiple dichotomies here !

 

If SPK land was given on the basis that it could not be sold and if abused, it reverts to the government, then default on a loan on the land could hardly see the land sold.

 

However, as money is surely lent on such land then there must be a trusted mechanism for land transfer, else the lender has no surety at all ?

 

Then if there is a way to transfer or sell land, that is at odds with the stated objective of the government which is to stop rich Thais buying land from poor Thais and driving up the price.

 

TIT :)

[khunPer]

5 hours ago, SGD said:

 

There are multiple dichotomies here !

 

If SPK land was given on the basis that it could not be sold and if abused, it reverts to the government, then default on a loan on the land could hardly see the land sold.

 

However, as money is surely lent on such land then there must be a trusted mechanism for land transfer, else the lender has no surety at all ?

 

Then if there is a way to transfer or sell land, that is at odds with the stated objective of the government which is to stop rich Thais buying land from poor Thais and driving up the price.

 

TIT :)

Talking from real Thai-world experience up Isaan-area you asks about, not from what makes sense to aliens...

[SGD]

17 hours ago, khunPer said:

Talking from real Thai-world experience up Isaan-area you asks about, not from what makes sense to aliens...

 

Are you on drugs ?

[khunPer]

4 hours ago, SGD said:

 

Are you on drugs ?

No way...

[SteveB2]

Sor Por Kor 4-01 ( ส.ป.ก. 4-01 ) Land ... 

 

I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole regardless of what the villagers customs and traditions are.

 

Why?  Well last month all the villages up in the boondocks where the missus comes from (Nong Khai/Beung Kaan) were asked to come and receive their new land chanots - the district had recently been surveyed and the local government offices were handing them out. 

 

Imagine everyone's surprise, when half the villages discovered that they were illegally occupying someone else's Sor Por Kor 4-01 land!  (Remember, it can not be sold to others, only handed down within the family from mother/father to wife or to children, close relatives etc)

 

There are many legal cases across Thailand going through the courts right now where folks who unknowingly purchased this type of land are trying to get their money back.

 

Note: Its easy to determine who REALLY owns a piece of land (SorPorKor , whatever) - simply visit your local land office and they'll run the location through their database and can even produce a copy of the chanot if available- There is a small charge for this service. 

 

[khunPer]

21 hours ago, SteveB2 said:

Sor Por Kor 4-01 ( ส.ป.ก. 4-01 ) Land ... 

 

I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole regardless of what the villagers customs and traditions are.

 

Why?  Well last month all the villages up in the boondocks where the missus comes from (Nong Khai/Beung Kaan) were asked to come and receive their new land chanots - the district had recently been surveyed and the local government offices were handing them out. 

 

Imagine everyone's surprise, when half the villages discovered that they were illegally occupying someone else's Sor Por Kor 4-01 land!  (Remember, it can not be sold to others, only handed down within the family from mother/father to wife or to children, close relatives etc)

 

There are many legal cases across Thailand going through the courts right now where folks who unknowingly purchased this type of land are trying to get their money back.

 

Note: Its easy to determine who REALLY owns a piece of land (SorPorKor , whatever) - simply visit your local land office and they'll run the location through their database and can even produce a copy of the chanot if available- There is a small charge for this service. 

 

Thanks for information – but are you talking about upgraded land title deeds changed from Sor Por Kor to Chanote, when saying »receive their new land chanots« – or is it new print of the original Sor Por Kor title deeds..?

[SteveB2]

2 hours ago, khunPer said:

Thanks for information – but are you talking about upgraded land title deeds changed from Sor Por Kor to Chanote, when saying »receive their new land chanots« – or is it new print of the original Sor Por Kor title deeds..?

 

The meeting was the handout of Chanots following the government survey of the villager's land.

 

The land that was privately owned in the village was issued with a Chanote.

 

Those who's land was  Sor Por Kor 4-0 found out about it at the meeting. There was much disappointment, anger and gnashing of teeth.

 

What was obvious, was that few people (if any) really knew if their land was private land (and thus eligible for a chanote) or  Sor Por Kor 4-0 land that had been illegally sold to them some time in the distant past.

 

From time to time Sor Por Kor 4-0 does get changed to a chanote in the name of the original assignee registered with the government agricultural land development association. In most cases though, this does not help the current owner who may have illegally purchased   Sor Por Kor 4-0  that has changed hands many times with the sale officiated over by no more than the Puu Yai Baan and no receipt for the cash changing hands still in existence.

 

It’s a massive problem for tens of thousands of Thai people who have purchased land in this manner during earlier times.

10 years ago when I purchased 1 Rai for the missus, only 25% of the land in Thailand had been surveyed and thus had a proper chanote, I am not sure what percent of land has been surveyed as per 2016 

 

  

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, SteveB2 said:

 

The meeting was the handout of Chanots following the government survey of the villager's land.

 

 

 

The land that was privately owned in the village was issued with a Chanote.

 

 

 

Those who's land was  Sor Por Kor 4-0 found out about it at the meeting. There was much disappointment, anger and gnashing of teeth.

 

 

 

What was obvious, was that few people (if any) really knew if their land was private land (and thus eligible for a chanote) or  Sor Por Kor 4-0 land that had been illegally sold to them some time in the distant past.

 

 

 

From time to time Sor Por Kor 4-0 does get changed to a chanote in the name of the original assignee registered with the government agricultural land development association. In most cases though, this does not help the current owner who may have illegally purchased   Sor Por Kor 4-0  that has changed hands many times with the sale officiated over by no more than the Puu Yai Baan and no receipt for the cash changing hands still in existence.

 

 

 

It’s a massive problem for tens of thousands of Thai people who have purchased land in this manner during earlier times.

 

10 years ago when I purchased 1 Rai for the missus, only 25% of the land in Thailand had been surveyed and thus had a proper chanote, I am not sure what percent of land has been surveyed as per 2016 

 

  

Thanks for your reply.
To my knowledge, from the villages I'm familiar with up Isaan, a proper paperwork when village farm-land is sold or change hand, includes a proxy from the previous – and/or original – owner, with signed copies of ID-cards, legalizing the new "owner" to make a transfer at the Land Department. If it always work like that at all offices, I cannot say, but I've experienced proxies work without problems for transfers, both at Land Office up Isaan and down South.

 

Some Sor Por Kor land – I recently became aware of this – can only be upgraded to Nor Sor 3 title deed, and not subdivided, for example between several children as heirs, when the land originally has been given as government forest land to be used for farming only; in such a case one heir only shall be recorded as owner. However, there might be different interpretation of rules in other Land Offices. Some villages may not be satelite-measured and upgraded for many years, the Land Office in Surin said, as they don't have time enough to do all the jobs.