Special unit to investigate mass sexual assaults in Austria

[LammyTS1]

You are correct. I do not know the identity or location of each criminal in my locality.

That is why the Police are there to serve me.

Are you surprised that the Austrian police are searching refugee centres or do you believe they are falsely concentrating their efforts on potential refugees(economic migrants) that have already been identified as North African/Middle East descent?

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[kangaloowest]

On 1/6/2017 at 1:26 PM, SaintLouisBlues said:

I suggest you contact the Austrian government forthwith and inform them of that fact and your conclusions. I'm sure they'll be most impressed

 

 

You really are an angry ant, aren't you pal

[7by7]

16 hours ago, LammyTS1 said:

You are correct. I do not know the identity or location of each criminal in my locality.

That is why the Police are there to serve me.

Are you surprised that the Austrian police are searching refugee centres or do you believe they are falsely concentrating their efforts on potential refugees(economic migrants) that have already been identified as North African/Middle East descent?

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

Now you are being silly.

 

The six perpetrators have been identified as being of North/African or Middle east descent so of course the police should be searching amongst that community.

 

But that is no reason to condemn, as some have done, all refugees or others of the same ethnicity for the actions of these six criminals nor the actions of others who have committed criminal acts. The criminals are a tiny minority.

 

A few years ago I was assaulted by a white Englishman who lived on the Isle of Wight; he got 2.5 years for it. Using the logic of some I should now believe that all people from the Island are violent criminals!

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Now you are being silly.

 

The six perpetrators have been identified as being of North/African or Middle east descent so of course the police should be searching amongst that community.

 

But that is no reason to condemn, as some have done, all refugees or others of the same ethnicity for the actions of these six criminals nor the actions of others who have committed criminal acts. The criminals are a tiny minority.

 

A few years ago I was assaulted by a white Englishman who lived on the Isle of Wight; he got 2.5 years for it. Using the logic of some I should now believe that all people from the Island are violent criminals!

 

At which point, would you say, things would start being a "problem", rather than isolated incidents carried out by a tiny minority?

[7by7]

25 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

At which point, would you say, things would start being a "problem", rather than isolated incidents carried out by a tiny minority?

Crime is a problem, all crime. No matter the ethnicity, immigration status, religion, gender, sexual preference, football team they support or any other factor relating to the criminal.

 

But to blame the majority of refugees for the actions of those criminals among them, to call that a 'problem' caused by that community is the first step down the road to coming up with the final solution to the refugee problem!

[harrry]

The first step in solving a problem is to identify it  and admit it is a problem.

The second is to find where it is.

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by harrry

[boomerangutang]

It's tough to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

 

It's best to bust the perps during or right after the dastardly deeds. Trying to round them up later, and/or relying on their fellow Muslim buddies to turn them in is a non-starter.  Won't happen.

 

Women and men (who are their protectors) should carry stun guns and mace.

Cops should be quick and pro-active when there's even a hint of trouble of this sort.

Any migrants strongly suspected of being involved should be shipped out quickly - to their home countries, while also terminating any involvement (of the perps) with the European country (applications and/or grants of citizenship).

 

In general, simply denying an application (and telling the denied person to leave) is not enough. Many of those denied will hang around.  Troubles continue.  Europe let the infection in.  It's a lot tougher now to deal with.

 

 

[7by7]

3 minutes ago, harrry said:

Sadly it is very close to that.

 

As I said; do some research instead of relying on rumour, hearsay and propaganda.

 

What are refugees (Flüchtlinge) and what are persons who qualify for asylum (Asylberechtigte)?  is a good place to start.

[boomerangutang]

On 1/6/2017 at 7:58 PM, LammyTS1 said:

Let's hope you are correct.  The police are conducting searches of all asylum seeker shelters in Innsbruck & Tirol, so these perpetrators should hopefully be caught quickly, as all these appalled genuine refugees will surely hand them over to police. 

 

         Even if what you say is true ("The police are conducting searches of all asylum seeker shelters in Innsbruck & Tirol"), it won't amount to any arrests or convictions. 

 

      Wrist slapping and verbal warnings won't have any tangible effect in stopping rapes. European police and authorities in general have to be tougher.  I don't like right-wing governments, but I think they're needed in Europe.  Thus far, with liberals in charge, Muslim baddies have been let in - and it can only get worse.

 

Today: multiple rapes.  Tomorrow: Sharia Law.  Europe:  WAKE UP! 

 

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

Crime is a problem, all crime. No matter the ethnicity, immigration status, religion, gender, sexual preference, football team they support or any other factor relating to the criminal.

 

But to blame the majority of refugees for the actions of those criminals among them, to call that a 'problem' caused by that community is the first step down the road to coming up with the final solution to the refugee problem!

 

So even if there is a correlation between certain types of crime, and ethnicity or religion of perpetrators, these ought to be ignored? That's not about blaming all or even the majority of their respective communities. The question is simply if those elements, factors, or whatever one chooses to call them are to be disregarded, even if they apply?

 

Spare me the theatrics, there was no suggestion in my post that something is caused by anything, that's your projection. Even more so with the OTT final solution bit.

[simple1]

12 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

 

         Even if what you say is true ("The police are conducting searches of all asylum seeker shelters in Innsbruck & Tirol"), it won't amount to any arrests or convictions. 

 

      Wrist slapping and verbal warnings won't have any tangible effect in stopping rapes. European police and authorities in general have to be tougher.  I don't like right-wing governments, but I think they're needed in Europe.  Thus far, with liberals in charge, Muslim baddies have been let in - and it can only get worse.

 

Today: multiple rapes.  Tomorrow: Sharia Law.  Europe:  WAKE UP! 

 

 

Perhaps you can point to convicted sexual assault criminals only receiving '"a slap on the wrist". The OP talks to touching and groping, which I assume under Austrian criminal law equates to 'rape'. In 2015, 91 asylum seekers / refugees were identified as suspects in sexual assault cases, whereas 438 Austrian nationals were suspects in sexual assault cases; obviously a disproportionate percentage of assailants are non Austrian nationals, but by no means exclusively refugees.

 

The Muslim heritage population of EU countries is currently forecasted to be around 10% by 2050 Accordingly why not explain how Sharia law, as practiced in countries such as Saudi Arabia, will be enacted in the EU

[simple1]

8 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

 

Deleted duplicate post

Edited January 9, 2017 by simple1

[Morch]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

Perhaps you can point to convicted sexual assault criminals only receiving '"a slap on the wrist". The OP talks to touching and groping, which I assume under Austrian criminal law equates to 'rape'. In 2015, 91 asylum seekers / refugees were identified as suspects in sexual assault cases, whereas 438 Austrian nationals were suspects in sexual assault cases; obviously a disproportionate percentage of assailants are non Austrian nationals, but by no means exclusively refugees.

 

The Muslim heritage population of EU countries is currently forecasted to be around 10% by 2050 Accordingly why not explain how Sharia law, as practiced in countries such as Saudi Arabia, will be enacted in the EU

 

I don't think there will be anything like full blown Sharia law anywhere in Europe, at least not anytime soon. That said, given both the projected demographics and Europe's political systems being (for the most part) either constituency or coalition based, the Muslim vote could very well carry more weight than figures suggest.

[simple1]

34 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think there will be anything like full blown Sharia law anywhere in Europe, at least not anytime soon. That said, given both the projected demographics and Europe's political systems being (for the most part) either constituency or coalition based, the Muslim vote could very well carry more weight than figures suggest.

 

As you  know some European countries have permitted aspects of Sharia Civil Law, just as they have done for Jewish Civil Law, but those signing off on such arrangements still have access to overriding local country civil law. Regards Sharia Criminal Law, as I understand, that would require a change to the applicable Constitution which personally I cannot see occurring even with a coalition government i.e. rejected by the electorate

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

As you  know some European countries have permitted aspects of Sharia Civil Law, just as they have done for Jewish Civil Law, but those signing off on such arrangements still have access to overriding local country civil law. Regards Sharia Criminal Law, as I understand, that would require a change to the applicable Constitution which personally I cannot see occurring even with a coalition government i.e. rejected by the electorate

 

I think you are being overly optimistic with regard to the levels democracies can defend themselves against exploits inherent in the system. We've even discussed this in a different context (US elections) on another occasion.

[7by7]

23 hours ago, Morch said:

 

So even if there is a correlation between certain types of crime, and ethnicity or religion of perpetrators, these ought to be ignored? That's not about blaming all or even the majority of their respective communities. The question is simply if those elements, factors, or whatever one chooses to call them are to be disregarded, even if they apply?

That is not what I said.

 

What I did say is the obviously the ethnicity, like any other identifying feature, of a suspect or suspects will obviously be used by the police in their enquiries, but to blame a whole community for the crimes of a minority is wrong.

 

23 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Spare me the theatrics, there was no suggestion in my post that something is caused by anything, that's your projection. Even more so with the OTT final solution bit.

 

Really?

On ‎08‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 10:59 AM, Morch said:

 

At which point, would you say, things would start being a "problem", rather than isolated incidents carried out by a tiny minority?

suggests otherwise!

 

If I have misinterpreted your remark please enlighten me as to your actual meaning.

[Morch]

@7by7

 

Let's try again, though probably a futile effort. If there is a significant correlation between certain kinds of crimes, and the ethnicity or culture of perpetrators - should this be dismissed or ignored during investigations? While trying to formulate policies countering these crimes? 

 

PC is all very well, up to the point where it amounts to ignoring reality. It is not about blaming the whole of a group, but of recognizing the likelihood of certain of its elements figuring in criminal activities. As a hypothetical example - if group A hails from a culture which tends to treat women as chattel - should law enforcement personnel be educated and informed on this front? Should this information be used in formulating specific community programs educating members of this hypothetical community as to bring them into step with the ways of their new surroundings?

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/6/2017 at 5:55 PM, SaintLouisBlues said:

Perhaps you should read the Convention itself before asking silly questions. Under the Convention a refugee always enters a country legally because they are a refugee. There is no such thing as an "illiegal refugee", and the means by which they sought refuge are equally irrelevant

That wasn't the question.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/9/2017 at 1:43 AM, boomerangutang said:

It's tough to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

 

It's best to bust the perps during or right after the dastardly deeds. Trying to round them up later, and/or relying on their fellow Muslim buddies to turn them in is a non-starter.  Won't happen.

 

Women and men (who are their protectors) should carry stun guns and mace.

Cops should be quick and pro-active when there's even a hint of trouble of this sort.

Any migrants strongly suspected of being involved should be shipped out quickly - to their home countries, while also terminating any involvement (of the perps) with the European country (applications and/or grants of citizenship).

 

In general, simply denying an application (and telling the denied person to leave) is not enough. Many of those denied will hang around.  Troubles continue.  Europe let the infection in.  It's a lot tougher now to deal with.

 

 

In my country, merely carrying stun guns or mace would get one arrested.

I think one is supposed to allow oneself to be maimed or killed and then the police can file a report and the judicial system will ignore it. 

Perhaps that is too harsh, but it sure seems like that. Even those mossy zapper things are illegal.

[Opl]

In fact, there is very little you can do, as a single woman against a group of predators assaulting you.

Unless you can receive help from bypassers - who would feel they can brave a group and take risks to try to help and rescue you. And you are lucky if it's the case.

Most of the time witnesses keep low profile.

 

 

 

[7by7]

On ‎09‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 0:26 PM, Morch said:

@7by7

 

Let's try again, though probably a futile effort. If there is a significant correlation between certain kinds of crimes, and the ethnicity or culture of perpetrators - should this be dismissed or ignored during investigations? While trying to formulate policies countering these crimes? 

 

PC is all very well, up to the point where it amounts to ignoring reality. It is not about blaming the whole of a group, but of recognizing the likelihood of certain of its elements figuring in criminal activities. As a hypothetical example - if group A hails from a culture which tends to treat women as chattel - should law enforcement personnel be educated and informed on this front? Should this information be used in formulating specific community programs educating members of this hypothetical community as to bring them into step with the ways of their new surroundings?

 Really?

 

So only people of a certain ethnicity, culture or religion commit sexual assault and rape?

 

Ridiculous.

 

Like all crimes, people of all ethnicities, all cultures, all religions, or none, commit these appalling crimes.

 

Maybe you are saying that because people of a certain culture and religion "treat women like chattel' that they are more likely to commit these crimes and so should be specially targeted?

 

People like the following, perhaps: Orthodox Judaism Treats Women Like Filthy Little Things

 

Obviously, if a person of one ethnicity commits a crime then the police should search for them within that ethnicity.  But that does not mean that all others who share the criminals ethnicity are equally likely to commit the same crime.

 

[Opl]

Repeated incidents / crimes - of the same kind  do of course fuel the préjudices people can have towards their perpetrators.

 

" "Some of the perpetrators had made a plan to celebrate New Year's Eve in Cologne via social media, saying 'We'll go to Cologne — there will be a big party,'" he told the German news magazine. "This phenomenon of group sexual assaults — surrounding women and then abusing them — is a massive problem in Cairo, for example. The perpetrators were likely familiar with this behavior from their home countries."

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/06/01/germany-music-festival-police-attacks/85237492/

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/04/austrian-police-searching-group-men-foreign-appearance-new-years/

 

I have no doubt parents tell their daughters to take no risks by avoiding encounters with groups of foreign men under certain circumstances.

 

Edited January 10, 2017 by Opl

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Really?

 

So only people of a certain ethnicity, culture or religion commit sexual assault and rape?

 

Ridiculous.

 

Like all crimes, people of all ethnicities, all cultures, all religions, or none, commit these appalling crimes.

 

Maybe you are saying that because people of a certain culture and religion "treat women like chattel' that they are more likely to commit these crimes and so should be specially targeted?

 

People like the following, perhaps: Orthodox Judaism Treats Women Like Filthy Little Things

 

Obviously, if a person of one ethnicity commits a crime then the police should search for them within that ethnicity.  But that does not mean that all others who share the criminals ethnicity are equally likely to commit the same crime.

 

 

Oh dear, yet another song and dance.

 

Seems like you can't relate to this topic without the usual twisting of words. There was no claim that "only people of a certain ethnicity, culture or religion commit sexual assault and rape". That your own addition, and lame straw-man effort while at it. Ridiculous indeed. I didn't even refer to one group or another, but made it a general argument. Obviously you had to bring in Orthodox Jews - the standard deflection. Similarly, there was nothing said about "all others who share the criminals ethnicity". 

 

Let's try once more: If there are repeated instances which included members of similar ethnic, cultural or religious background involved in certain types of crimes, and if the number of such instances was above the projected figures related to the distribution among the general population - would you still prefer ignoring the facts? Would it not be more responsible to address such issues, if they exist?

 

Note, again, this is not about labeling an entire group, but highlighting that certain elements within the group are more likely to be involved in certain types of crime. This could be useful for investigative, preventive and educational efforts.

[7by7]

@Morch

 

This is a topic about sexual assault; it is therefore not unreasonable to assume your talk of ethnic/religious profiling to be concerned with sexual assault.

 

It is obvious to all that your remark "a culture which tends to treat women as chattel" was directed at one particular culture and religion; I merely showed you that ultra orthodox Muslims are not the only group who view women like that.

 

Here's another: Conservative Christian pastor: It’s better for a president to grab a vagina than to have one. Maybe you should include Conservative Christians in the US in your education classes.

 

I am not ignoring any facts; I am basing my comments on reason, not prejudice.

 

Several years ago the Met ran two consecutive operations.

 

One was directed against street crime; which in London was mainly committed by young black men. So it was amongst that community that the operation concentrated it's investigations.

 

The other was against burglary; which was mainly committed by young white men. So it was among that community that the operation concentrated it's investigations.

 

But at no stage did anyone state that all young black men were prone to mugging and so should be treated with suspicion, nor that all young white men were prone to burglary and so also be treated with suspicion.

 

No one said that all young black men and all young white men needed "educating" in the way you have put forward.

 

That does not mean I am against immigrants learning the language culture, history etc. of their new home; which is why I am in favour of the language tests non EEA migrants need to pass in order to live in the UK even temporarily and  the LitUK test they need to pass to get Indefinite Leave to Remain.

Edited January 10, 2017 by 7by7

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

@Morch

 

This is a topic about sexual assault; it is therefore not unreasonable to assume your talk of ethnic/religious profiling to be concerned with sexual assault.

 

It is obvious to all that your remark "a culture which tends to treat women as chattel" was directed at one particular culture and religion; I merely showed you that ultra orthodox Muslims are not the only group who view women like that.

 

Here's another: Conservative Christian pastor: It’s better for a president to grab a vagina than to have one. Maybe you should include Conservative Christians in the US in your education classes.

 

I am not ignoring any facts; I am basing my comments on reason, not prejudice.

 

Several years ago the Met ran two consecutive operations.

 

One was directed against street crime; which in London was mainly committed by young black men. So it was amongst that community that the operation concentrated it's investigations.

 

The other was against burglary; which was mainly committed by young white men. So it was among that community that the operation concentrated it's investigations.

 

But at no stage did anyone state that all young black men were prone to mugging and so should be treated with suspicion, nor that all young white men were prone to burglary and so also be treated with suspicion.

 

No one said that all young black men and all young white men needed "educating" in the way you have put forward.

 

That does not mean I am against immigrants learning the culture, history etc. of their new home; which is why I am, and always have been since it was introduced, of the LitUK test which non EEA migrants to the UK need to pass to get Indefinite Leave to Remain, and everyone who wants to naturalise as a British citizen, no matter what their other nationality is, needs to pass.

 

Nope. Your assumptions are your own, and you persist with them even after explanations to rather obvious posts were supplied. I was actually trying to make this a general argument, rather than focusing on one group or another - the introduction of specifics was your own.

 

But if you insist on your usual deflection, here goes - if figures indicated that Orthodox Jews were prone to be involved in such crimes way above their number within the general population, perhaps you'd have a point. The same would apply for other Jewish or Christian groups. As it stands, Europe does not face a wave of immigration by either, but by people who for the most part hail from third world countries, are (to varying degrees of devoutness) Muslim, and with a cultural background very different from Europe's.

 

There wasn't, even if you falsely claim it, anything said about "all" members of any group being labeled. It was not "put forward" that all should be educated. Those are your dishonest constructs, not mine. My argument was limited, and did not include your imaginary interpretations.

 

What I did say, is that IMO things should not be ignored. Whether or not they are acted upon, and how, are other matters. Sweeping them under the carpet will not do.

[Scott]

Off-topic, graphic video removed.