Farang as Juristic Manager. Any in Pattaya ?

[johng]

3 hours ago, tontraveller said:

before that it has been checked with Landoffice and Immigration..

And what did the labour department say ?

[tontraveller]

3 minutes ago, johng said:

And what did the labour department say ?

 

4 minutes ago, johng said:

And what did the labour department say ?

This subject has nothing to do with the labour department, sitting on a condo committee.

Our committee does not even have one Thai member.

But for volunteer work, yes, you need a work permit for that officially

[ericthai]

9 hours ago, tontraveller said:

No  You dont need work permit sitting on the condo committee..

Condo management needs only to register committee members at the Landoffice and that is completely legal.

I have been on it in my condo, and before that it has been checked with Landoffice and Immigration..

 

 

I didn't say anything about sitting on a committee, ready what i wrote again, i said you need a work permit to do volunteer work.  

 

[ericthai]

10 hours ago, thairookie said:

Can you trust Thai attorneys?

 

The moment they say it's legal to register a company with Thai nominees to own and control land, I lose confidence in them.

 

Thai attorneys are not required to purchase professional indemnity insurance.

Where did i say anything about an attorney?? 

[thairookie]

9 hours ago, tontraveller said:

No  You dont need work permit sitting on the condo committee..

Condo management needs only to register committee members at the Landoffice and that is completely legal.

I have been on it in my condo, and before that it has been checked with Landoffice and Immigration..

 

 

Do you need at least a long term visa to sit in the committee ?

[kdrayong]

In my opinion it is for a farang neither a problem to be a member of a committee nor being the chairman of it.
At least I haven't heard anything different until now. Signing cheques maybe considered under Thai law as 'working'. However, I never experienced myself or heard of any problems when anybody did so.

The JPM is (IMHO again) clearly a job. No matter if paid or not. It is far different from just executive representing the co-owners.

34 minutes ago, thairookie said:

Do you need at least a long term visa to sit in the committee ?

There is nothing mentioned in the Thailand Condominium Act about that. So (IMHO again) anybody is eligible to be a member of the ECM.

Section 37:

A person eligible for appointment as a member shall not possess the following prohibitions:

(1) A minor, an incompetent or quasi-incompetent person,
(2) Used to be relieved from the position of a member by the Joint Owner General Meeting or removed from being a manager because of corruption or his conduct is detrimental or defective on morality.
(3)  Used to be dismissed, removed or discharged from a government service, government or private organization or agency on charge of misfeasance,
(4) Used to be imprisoned by final judgment except an offence committed through negligence or petty offence.

 

 

[inThailand]

My attorney concurs.

 

A falang JP Manager needs a work permit for they are required to sign any legal documents.

 

Falang committee members do not need a work permit for they are just looking after their property. 

[Basil B]

On 28/01/2017 at 10:03 PM, jacko45k said:

A very small amount, which suggests  he was punished for being 'guilty' of something.

A token amount, he was found (or pleaded guilty) of the charges, the judge has to do something even if he felt the law was an ass in this issue.

 

Pity the OP did not have in writing the assurance he claimed to have from Immigration saying there was no problem in doing the job as Juristic Person in the first place.

 

Unfortunately I do feel the position JP is a proper job and entails a lot more than just signing "Free Of Debt" letters, he is responsible for keeping the condominium legal, so it would be a well paid job therefore WP would be required.

 

As for being on a committee, this should be unpaid only legit expenses if the rules allow, but I have heard that even those doing voluntary work need WP's,  IMHO serving on a condominium committee is a way to protect ones investment and could be construed as being in violation of ones human rights, certainly racism if only Thai's could be appointed. 

 

 

[Basil B]

On 29/01/2017 at 3:51 PM, thairookie said:

Do you need at least a long term visa to sit in the committee ?

I do no know where the law stands on "Video Conferencing" but if it were adopted one would not even have to be in Thailand to participate in meetings.

 

As a former co-owner I found the biggest issue being the inability to even have enough co-owners attend the AGM to even make the meeting quorate, I certainly would welcome the idea of allowing proxies and video conferencing at AGM's (& EGM's) so as to be able to get the required votes to get important issues passed. 

[moonseeker]

On 4/2/2018 at 5:26 PM, Basil B said:

I do no know where the law stands on "Video Conferencing" but if it were adopted one would not even have to be in Thailand to participate in meetings.

 

As a former co-owner I found the biggest issue being the inability to even have enough co-owners attend the AGM to even make the meeting quorate, I certainly would welcome the idea of allowing proxies and video conferencing at AGM's (& EGM's) so as to be able to get the required votes to get important issues passed. 

Proxies are and have always been allowed. 3 per owner or representative. EGM's often the only way to get necessary votes for important matters. But never a shortage of whiners, moaners and agitators in most condos. MS>

[inThailand]

Any meaningful decisions must be put forth as a resolution prior to the AGM or EGM. So all owners have a chance to vote on such. The meeting really is just a vote counting exercise. Sure you can discuss any topics you want but major decisions cannot be made in this manner. 

[KittenKong]

But never a shortage of whiners, moaners and agitators in most condos.

One man's whiner/moaner/agitator is another man's concerned co--owner.

[KittenKong]

Any meaningful decisions must be put forth as a resolution prior to the AGM or EGM. So all owners have a chance to vote on such. The meeting really is just a vote counting exercise. Sure you can discuss any topics you want but major decisions cannot be made in this manner.

No. There is no requirement that all matters be included in the agenda. Any topic can be raised and debated as "other business" without ever appearing on any agenda. And the agenda itself is merely a guideline: co-owners can decide on the day to ignore it or modify it if they wish. This is what GMs are all about.

There are a couple of items that the condo act stipulates must be included (such as presentation of the financial report, selection of committee members and JPM as needed and in accordance with the building rules) but apart from that nothing is written in stone.

As long as a legal quorum is present any decision made by at least half the attendees is completely binding, with the exception of some major policy decisions that also require a minimum percentage vote of the entire ownership to be valid. This is the case regardless of whether the item is on an agenda or not.
It's up to all co-owners to either attend meetings in person or to be represented by a proxy if they wish to have any control over the way their building is run. I have no sympathy at all for those who cant be a*sed or who just glance at the agenda and assume that is all there is.

[KittenKong]

I do no know where the law stands on "Video Conferencing" but if it were adopted one would not even have to be in Thailand to participate in meetings.

As a former co-owner I found the biggest issue being the inability to even have enough co-owners attend the AGM to even make the meeting quorate, I certainly would welcome the idea of allowing proxies and video conferencing at AGM's (& EGM's) so as to be able to get the required votes to get important issues passed.

Remote voting is not legal in Thailand and I would be strongly opposed to it as it offers far too many opportunities for fraud. It is also impractical in large buildings.

The approximate date of the AGM is always known well in advance (it must occur within 120 days of the end of the financial year, and constraints like auditing make it unlikely to happen within 60 days of the end of the financial year), and the actual date can always be fixed many months in advance by any competent committee, therefore I see no reason why co-owners should not be able to arrange to attend or to be represented.

The Condo Act addresses the possibility of a lack of a quorum very precisely as it allows for a second GM to take place shortly after any first AGM is held at which a quorum is not present. For most practical day-to-day voting purposes any such second GM has no quorum, and this is how many buildings here manage to function. In my building it is a foregone conclusion that the first meeting will not have a quorum and that the second will happen two weeks later, and that all decisions will be made at the second meeting regardless of how many people are represented. Many other buildings are the same.

[inThailand]

3 hours ago, KittenKong said:

No. There is no requirement that all matters be included in the agenda. Any topic can be raised and debated as "other business" without ever appearing on any agenda. And the agenda itself is merely a guideline: co-owners can decide on the day to ignore it or modify it if they wish. This is what GMs are all about.

There are a couple of items that the condo act stipulates must be included (such as presentation of the financial report, selection of committee members and JPM as needed and in accordance with the building rules) but apart from that nothing is written in stone.

As long as a legal quorum is present any decision made by at least half the attendees is completely binding, with the exception of some major policy decisions that also require a minimum percentage vote of the entire ownership to be valid. This is the case regardless of whether the item is on an agenda or not.
It's up to all co-owners to either attend meetings in person or to be represented by a proxy if they wish to have any control over the way their building is run. I have no sympathy at all for those who cant be a*sed or who just glance at the agenda and assume that is all there is.

So owners at the AGM or EGM can pass say a fee increase without all owners having a say, ie a vote. Not! 

[FracturedRabbit]

53 minutes ago, inThailand said:

So owners at the AGM or EGM can pass say a fee increase without all owners having a say, ie a vote. Not! 

Yes!

As Kittenkong said "some major policy decisions that also require a minimum percentage vote of the entire ownership to be valid." This includes rate increases; a higher percentage than normal resolutions is required; but it does not require the support of all owners.

[inThailand]

12 minutes ago, FracturedRabbit said:

Yes!

As Kittenkong said "some major policy decisions that also require a minimum percentage vote of the entire ownership to be valid." This includes rate increases; a higher percentage than normal resolutions is required; but it does not require the support of all owners.

So the owners committee or JP Manager could call a meeting and purposely leave out all important resolutions. Then with just their partners in crime vote on key issues behind closed doors? You really believe this is in the spirit of the condo act and legal? I am glad I don't own where you do! Can you do this in your home country?

[FracturedRabbit]

33 minutes ago, inThailand said:

So the owners committee or JP Manager could call a meeting and purposely leave out all important resolutions. Then with just their partners in crime vote on key issues behind closed doors? You really believe this is in the spirit of the condo act and legal? I am glad I don't own where you do! Can you do this in your home country?

I was not referring to the need for publicising resolutions, I was pointing merely pointing out that "So owners at the AGM or EGM can pass say a fee increase without all owners having a say, ie a vote. Not! " is not correct; a percentage majority is sufficient. From memory, the condo act requires 70% of owners (not attendees) to approve an increase in rates; not something than could be achieved by the manager and "partners in crime".

[Dickygozinya]

Look up the Thai condo act for yourself!  Here is the original act.  

Thai condo act amended 2008

Also you must Read the BY-Laws for your building!

 

NOW some Thai legal definitions

Juristic Person = Equivalent of a USA not-for-profit Foundation for the protection and operation of an entity.  I don’t know UK or AU equivalent.  NO  living Human Being can be a Juristic person.

 

Juristic Person Manager JPM = Individual who acts to protect the interests of the Juristic person (Condo building COMMON AREA), and Co-Owner rights.

This JPM can only be elected at either an AGM or EGM.

NORMAL and Customary for this position  to be held by either A Thai National OR CAN BE a Foreigner With A Work permit.

EXCEPTION:

DEPENDING on Condo By-Laws,

if  JPM duly elected at either an AGM or EGM, and FUllY registered by the land office as JPM, can not execute their duties:  The Committee can vote a TEMPORARY JURISTIC PERSON MANAGER, (BUT ONLY. WITHIN  EXISTING LAND OFFICE REGISTERED COMMITTEE MEMBERS), AND then this TEmPoRarY JPM must be accepted and registered at Land Office BEFoRe they can perform any condo duties.

 

Chairman Of Committee = ONLY member of Committee that CAN set an Agenda and Call A Meeting.  

EXCEPTION:

IF Chairman is notified by any two

ittee members of a desire for a meeting and a specific agenda item in writing at LEAST TWO TIMES and Chairman refuses to set agenda and call meeting, ,then these two members can solicit other committee members to form a quorum and call a meeting (must invite the Chairman), with their own agenda.

 

Committee Members = Elected individuals who VOLUNTEERED and received the majority votes at either an AGM or EGM.   Minimum required is (3), maximum allowed is (9), including Chairman who is elected by the committee members themselves.

 

AGM =Annual General Meeting, (By Condo Act, must occur not later than 120-days after Annual Financial Statements are prepared and audit ready for release.   The Chairman Of Committee sets the Agenda for this meeting, so if the Agenda does NOT specifically include election of all or a portion of new committee members and/or an election of a NEW JPM, NO voting on those issues can occur.

The condo act states (But many corrupt JPM’s and committees refuse to step down for fear of an audit by new committee exposing illegal

financial transactions), a NEW committee should be elected every two years.

 

EGM = This is the method that can be used by any group of Co-Owners to solicit and acquire signatures of at least a minimum of 25% or greater than 25% of the physical residential non-common area Co-Owners percentage of building total residential space ownership, to announce and hold a meeting to replace the existing committee AND JPM.    To do this EGM YOU MUST ADHERE to strict rules and

to do that you should hire an EXPERT that has successfully operated many EGM’s.  Usually a Lawyer.    I used for our EGM “ iThai Master Law Office “ in Jomtien.  The EGM expert there is Kuhn Boonsom 

 

how I learned the above?  

 

Been in court for 14 months now with legal bills, lawyers and translators costing well over 200,000 baht of my own money and successfully overturned the JPM and Committee at a Pattaya condo (DO NOT ASK FOR CONDO NAME - I WONT ANSWER) 

[KittenKong]

4 hours ago, Dickygozinya said:

Juristic Person = Equivalent of a USA not-for-profit Foundation for the protection and operation of an entity.  I don’t know UK or AU equivalent.  NO  living Human Being can be a Juristic person.

In condo terms the "Juristic Person" is the building itself, and its finances.

 

4 hours ago, Dickygozinya said:

AGM =Annual General Meeting, (By Condo Act, must occur not later than 120-days after Annual Financial Statements are prepared and audit ready for release.  

No, that's 120 days after the end of the financial year. The audit and statement have to be ready for that.

 

4 hours ago, Dickygozinya said:

The Chairman Of Committee sets the Agenda for this meeting, so if the Agenda does NOT specifically include election of all or a portion of new committee members and/or an election of a NEW JPM, NO voting on those issues can occur.

No, the election of new committee members to replace those at the end of their term, or a JPM to replace one at the end of his term must happen when due, regardless of whether it is on the agenda or not.

The agenda is not written in stone and it can be altered and extended (or even completely ignored) according to the wishes of the majority of co-owners present. An agenda normally also includes a section "any other business" at which anyone can discuss and propose anything to be voted on by the assembly, and even without such a section any co-owner can raise points that he considers important and can invite discussion and voting on them. Even who is to chair the meeting can be decided by the co-owners present, and they can select someone other than the committee chairman if they wish.

 

4 hours ago, Dickygozinya said:

EGM = This is the method that can be used by any group of Co-Owners to solicit and acquire signatures of at least a minimum of 25% or greater than 25% of the physical residential non-common area Co-Owners percentage of building total residential space ownership, to announce and hold a meeting to replace the existing committee AND JPM.    To do this EGM YOU MUST ADHERE to strict rules and

to do that you should hire an EXPERT that has successfully operated many EGM’s.  Usually a Lawyer.

 

It is very common in many buildings here for an EGM to take place two weeks after an initial AGM, as frequently a quorum is not obtained at the initial AGM. No signatures are needed for this. There are buildings that do this systematically every year.

Signatures in the form of a petition are only needed for an EGM to be held outside of the normal calendar, and this is normally done through the JPM not the committee chairman (an exception might be if the EGM is being held with a view to booting the JPM out).

Also in many buildings only at an EGM (with the reduced voting requirements) can proposals like supplementary fees ever be passed. So if the EGM didnt happen the entire finances of many buildings could collapse.

 

 

 

 

[thairookie]

15 hours ago, Dickygozinya said:

 I used for our EGM “ iThai Master Law Office “ in Jomtien.  The EGM expert there is Kuhn Boonsom 

 

Now I understand why you took 14 months.

[inThailand]

The agenda is not written in stone and it can be altered and extended (or even completely ignored) according to the wishes of the majority of co-owners present. An agenda normally also includes a section "any other business" at which anyone can discuss and propose anything to be voted on by the assembly, and even without such a section any co-owner can raise points that he considers important and can invite discussion and voting on them. Even who is to chair the meeting can be decided by the co-owners present, and they can select someone other than the committee chairman if they wish.

 

The condo act requires the agenda, ie resolutions be presented to All owners in advance with adequate supporting documents/info. The idea you can on the sly propose resolutions at the meeting and purposely do it behind non attending owners is not right or legal. 

[kannot]

On 1/28/2017 at 7:03 PM, pipeflaw said:

I am both Chairman of the Committee and the Manager of the Juristic Person.  Our attorneys have advised us that I don't need a work permit for either position since I receive no compensation or other consideration for the work I do.  They also say that the work is in the nature of community service or volunteer work, neither of which require a work permit.  Developers still owning units have threatened to have me arrested for over a year on this because I insist on running the condo above board and transparently but nothing has ever happened.

Nice to see the true  nature of some Thais, way  too many are  like this. Good  luck with the lot of them

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, inThailand said:

The condo act requires the agenda, ie resolutions be presented to All owners in advance with adequate supporting documents/info. The idea you can on the sly propose resolutions at the meeting and purposely do it behind non attending owners is not right or legal.  

 

The condo act requires an agenda to be sent out with the invitations but that agenda is not written in stone and it can be altered or added to according to the wishes of those present (or represented) on the day. There is no requirement whatsoever for the agenda to include supporting documents or information. It is merely a list of possible topics for discussion. And some topics would have to be discussed regardless of whether they are on the agenda or not (notably replacing committee members/JPMs at the end of their term). So the agenda is just a guideline.

Those who do not attend a meeting (or who do not send a proxy) have very little say about anything, and as long as the legal quorums are respected almost any resolution can be discussed and voted for at an AGM/EGM and the result will be legally binding. Hardly any resolutions would require 100% agreement of all co-owners, in attendance or not, and in fact the only one I know of is dissolution of the condo.

 

The bottom line is that if co-owners want to have a say in their building they should either attend the meetings or send a valid proxy. This is both entirely right and entirely legal. Running the building is what meetings are for and all co-owners should attend or be represented by a proxy. Those who do neither forfeit their rights to be heard and to have their opinion taken into consideration.