British PM anticipates call for Scottish independence referendum - report

[jpinx]

58 minutes ago, Grouse said:

.

Best posting I've seen yet from this half-wit. :)

[jpinx]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Do you think that Scots don't have the political or intellectual capability of thinking beyond the conundrum of independence or subjugation?

 

We have our own working parliament, representing a panoply of political thought. Whydo you suggest that our existing institutions collapse under the weight of self determination?

Look at the education standards of Scotland compared to Switzerland, where government can entrust such decisions to it's people.   To say that Holyrood is "working" is stretching things.  They open for business every day, but where are the improvements to the scottish NHS, Education, etc, etc.?  The only thing holyrood is "working" on is independence.  everything else can go hang if it does not further that aim.

[RuamRudy]

26 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Look at the education standards of Scotland compared to Switzerland, where government can entrust such decisions to it's people.   To say that Holyrood is "working" is stretching things.  They open for business every day, but where are the improvements to the scottish NHS, Education, etc, etc.?  The only thing holyrood is "working" on is independence.  everything else can go hang if it does not further that aim.

Then what do you plan to do about Westminster? The English NHS is such a catastrophe compared to the Scottish one; even Hunt is now having to accept the failure of the Tories in this respect. Education, as we all acknowledge, requires improvement - but as is clear only this week, it is hindered by the hangover of Labour's disastrous forced implementation of PFI. As for Holyrood's focus, the pro-independence parties have a slim majority - what are the SLab, Tory and Lib Dem MSPs doing if all that Holyrood can talk about is independence?

 

I think that the myopia is with the Scots bashers on this thread, not in Holyrood.

[jpinx]

26 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Then what do you plan to do about Westminster? The English NHS is such a catastrophe compared to the Scottish one; even Hunt is now having to accept the failure of the Tories in this respect. Education, as we all acknowledge, requires improvement - but as is clear only this week, it is hindered by the hangover of Labour's disastrous forced implementation of PFI. As for Holyrood's focus, the pro-independence parties have a slim majority - what are the SLab, Tory and Lib Dem MSPs doing if all that Holyrood can talk about is independence?

 

I think that the myopia is with the Scots bashers on this thread, not in Holyrood.

What improvements have actually happened during the SNP's "reign"? Education?  Now not taking part in international standards, now senior students about one year behind,  I'll let you look up actual waiting list times for the NHS from ten years ago and now.  No-one is myopic - it's the situation that is distorted. No-one is bashing Scots as a nation, only the warp that is Holyrood.  Nothing would please me more than wave my Scottish passport at Glasgow airport and arrive home!

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, jpinx said:

What improvements have actually happened during the SNP's "reign"?

*Free uni tuition

*Free Prescriptions

*Mitigated the bedroom tax

*Increased the number of Police Officers and maintained this

*Took away tolls on bridges

*Frozen Council tax

*Followed through on their manifesto commitment to a referendum

*They built the new South Glasgow Hospital and are building numerous infrastructure projects throughout Scotland, on time and in many cases under budget, unlike some of the things done by their predecessors (Trams, Parliament).

*Helped finance and deliver Glasgow 2014.

*Instituted the Scottish homecoming programmes which have brought in hundreds of millions of pounds of tourism revenue.

*The highest level of female employment in Europe.

*They have built and continue to build thousands of new homes compared to the half dozen that were built by Lab/Libs.

*Protected and engaged in helping grow the Gaelic Language.

*50/50 Gender split cabinet.

*Did what was right: followed the law and released Al-Megrahi.

(While I agree with all the above, I cannot take credit for the compiling of it - I took from reddit/r/scotland)

 

The entire UK is going down the pan. I have been an expat since 2001 and each time I go back, the gradual decline in UK standards are increasingly stark - the UK under successive Westminster governments is becoming more and more feral. To suggest that we have problems in Scotland while the entire country is going to the dogs is incredibly myopic. Blairism started the rot; Cameron firmly cemented it in place.

[billd766]

21 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Of course - that is politics and that is what all politicians do. But no matter how much cold water you pour on the SNP numbers, they are still far more popular than Theresa, Jeremy or whoever is in charge of UKIP this week could ever hope to muster.

How strange that you should mention the SNP and UKIP in the same breath.

 

How did UKIP win 12.6% of the votes in the last general election in 2015 and came third in the overall votes yet the SNP only managed 4.7% of the votes and came 5th?

 

I you had said in Scotland only I would agree wholeheartedly but I personally think, not having any current polls to refer to that in the UK as a whole, and Scotland IS still a part of the UK, you would not be correct.

 

Personally I would love to see proportional representation in the UK but no major party would even consider that action. The Conservatives and Labour and most probably the SNP too would lose too many seats.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

How did UKIP win 12.6% of the votes in the last general election in 2015 and came third in the overall votes yet the SNP only managed 4.7% of the votes and came 5th?

 

Because you are comparing a party that stood across the whole of UK against a party that stood only in Scotland. Look at UKIP's woeful performance in Scotland - they got trounced in every single constituency. It's as simple as that.

 

5 minutes ago, billd766 said:

you had said in Scotland only I would agree wholeheartedly but I personally think, not having any current polls to refer to that in the UK as a whole, and Scotland IS still a part of the UK, you would not be correct.

 

Personally I would love to see proportional representation in the UK but no major party would even consider that action. The Conservatives and Labour and most probably the SNP too would lose too many seats.

 

But that is not how our system of voting works. We have FPTP rather than PR which, ironically enough, the SNP supported.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

Best posting I've seen yet from this half-wit. :)

,

[7by7]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

*Free uni tuition

*Free Prescriptions

*Mitigated the bedroom tax

*Increased the number of Police Officers and maintained this

*Took away tolls on bridges

*Frozen Council tax

*Followed through on their manifesto commitment to a referendum

*They built the new South Glasgow Hospital and are building numerous infrastructure projects throughout Scotland, on time and in many cases under budget, unlike some of the things done by their predecessors (Trams, Parliament).

*Helped finance and deliver Glasgow 2014.

*Instituted the Scottish homecoming programmes which have brought in hundreds of millions of pounds of tourism revenue.

*The highest level of female employment in Europe.

*They have built and continue to build thousands of new homes compared to the half dozen that were built by Lab/Libs.

 I'm not going to bother checking the accuracy of the above claims, but I do wonder how many of them would have been possible without the subsidy Scotland receives from English taxpayers.

 

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

*Protected and engaged in helping grow the Gaelic Language.

*50/50 Gender split cabinet.

*Did what was right: followed the law and released Al-Megrahi.

 If the Scottish government want to spend money on a language, that's up to them; but not my money.

 

Personally, I believe Cabinet members, like all other occupations, should be appointed on their ability, not their gender or anything else.

 

Al-Megrahi; a convicted terrorist, called a great man by Gaddafi, released from prison on compassionate grounds because he only had three months to live due to prostate cancer; he lived another three years after his release.  Ask the relatives of those who were on board Pan Am flight 103 if releasing him was the 'right thing;' ask the people of Lockerbie if releasing him was the 'right thing.'
 

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

The entire UK is going down the pan. I have been an expat since 2001 and each time I go back, the gradual decline in UK standards are increasingly stark - the UK under successive Westminster governments is becoming more and more feral. To suggest that we have problems in Scotland while the entire country is going to the dogs is incredibly myopic. Blairism started the rot; Cameron firmly cemented it in place.

Quote

 

Current Budget Balance 2015-16

 

This is the difference between total revenue and current expenditure (i.e. excluding capital investment). The current budget balance:

 

Excluding North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £12.7 billion (8.6 per cent of GDP).

 

Including an illustrative geographic share of North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £12.6 billion (8.1 per cent of GDP).

 

For the UK, was a deficit of £41.5 billion (2.2 per cent of GDP)

 

So Scotland under the SNP is not doing as well as the rest of the UK, if one believes those figures.

 

I know you have a habit of dismissing facts you don't care for which come from what you call anti independence sources; but these figures come from the Scottish government!

[jpinx]

22 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

That may be true, but to suggest that the independence movement is akin to national socialism is abhorrent.

I didn't.!

[Grouse]

14 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 I'm not going to bother checking the accuracy of the above claims, but I do wonder how many of them would have been possible without the subsidy Scotland receives from English taxpayers.

 

 If the Scottish government want to spend money on a language, that's up to them; but not my money.

 

Personally, I believe Cabinet members, like all other occupations, should be appointed on their ability, not their gender or anything else.

 

Al-Megrahi; a convicted terrorist, called a great man by Gaddafi, released from prison on compassionate grounds because he only had three months to live due to prostate cancer; he lived another three years after his release.  Ask the relatives of those who were on board Pan Am flight 103 if releasing him was the 'right thing;' ask the people of Lockerbie if releasing him was the 'right thing.'
 

So Scotland under the SNP is not doing as well as the rest of the UK, if one believes those figures.

 

I know you have a habit of dismissing facts you don't care for which come from what you call anti independence sources; but these figures come from the Scottish government!

I'm sure that's not far off.

 

But consider population density; the Barnett formula is not for nothing.

 

Also, what if Scots preferred higher taxes for superior services?

 

I really think a clean break would be best now.

[mogandave]

Yes!!!!

Stop the greed with a clean break and let the chips fall where they may!!!!!'


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 I'm not going to bother checking the accuracy of the above claims, but I do wonder how many of them would have been possible without the subsidy Scotland receives from English taxpayers.

At least you are honest about your lack of willingness to show interest, and your reliance upon innate arrogance. I suppose, therefore, there is no point suggesting that you educate yourself about Scottish contributions the the UK exchequer.

 

11 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Ask the relatives of those who were on board Pan Am flight 103 if releasing him was the 'right thing;' ask the people of Lockerbie if releasing him was the 'right thing.'

Will Jim Swire do?

 

22 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

So Scotland under the SNP is not doing as well as the rest of the UK, if one believes those figures.

Another way to look at is that Scotland within the UK is not doing very well.

 

19 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

I know you have a habit of dismissing facts you don't care

Oh the irony...

 

 

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, jpinx said:

I didn't.!

You didn't but the underlying tone of the post from 7by7 was that the SNP was taking Scotland down the road to a modern day version of Nazi Germany.

[jpinx]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You didn't but the underlying tone of the post from 7by7 was that the SNP was taking Scotland down the road to a modern day version of Nazi Germany.

You shot the wrong poster !!  Never mind - I have a hide like a rhino, but I'm not as pretty

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, jpinx said:

You shot the wrong poster !!  Never mind - I have a hide like a rhino, but I'm not as pretty

I wasn't aiming at you - however, when I posted a link to explain the difference between Civic Nationalism and National Socialism in an attempt to counter the deplorable suggestion by another that the SNP was a one-way road to gas chambers in Scotland, you responded that it the link was drivel, hence our diversion down that cul-de-sac.

[jpinx]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I wasn't aiming at you - however, when I posted a link to explain the difference between Civic Nationalism and National Socialism in an attempt to counter the deplorable suggestion by another that the SNP was a one-way road to gas chambers in Scotland, you responded that it the link was drivel, hence our diversion down that cul-de-sac.

You quoted me - That indicates a post aimed at me.     I'm not fighting you --  not over this or anything else, just chewing the cud on a hot afternoon :)

Edited February 11, 2017 by jpinx

[7by7]

21 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Also, what if Scots preferred higher taxes for superior services?

 Ever since it's formation the Scottish Parliament has been able to set higher tax rates in Scotland than the rest of the UK; but never has.

 

They were previously able to increase the rate of Scottish income tax by up to 3% above or below the UK rate.

 

During the campaign for the first elections to the Scottish Parliament, the SNP said they would not implement the 1% cut in the basic rate of income tax instituted by Gordon Brown, thus keeping the rate 1% higher than in the rest of the UK; but they quickly dropped that promise when they realised it would cost them votes.

 

The Scottish parliament now has greater tax setting powers. Scottish rate of Income tax

Quote

The Scotland Act 2012 gives the Scottish Parliament the power to set the Scottish rate of income tax. The Scottish rate of income tax (SRIT) came into effect from 6 April 2016........

From April 2016, the UK income tax rates, the basic, higher and additional rates, paid by Scottish taxpayers will be reduced by 10 percentage points (10p in the pound). The Scottish rate will then be set annually by the Scottish Parliament at any value from 0 per cent upwards in half pence units. Please see SRIT at a glance.

 

As can be seen from the tables , they have set the SRIT so that the total rate paid by Scottish taxpayers is the same as that for the rest of the UK.

[agudbuk]

If England stops subsidising Scotland and they want the same levels of services (free NHS prescriptions etc) then scottish taxation will have to rise

Sent from my Grand using Tapatalk

[onthesoi]

7 hours ago, Grouse said:

So we can expect the imminent demise of UKIP? 

 

Sadly, they passed away during the last general election.

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Ever since it's formation the Scottish Parliament has been able to set higher tax rates in Scotland than the rest of the UK; but never has.

 

They were previously able to increase the rate of Scottish income tax by up to 3% above or below the UK rate.

 

During the campaign for the first elections to the Scottish Parliament, the SNP said they would not implement the 1% cut in the basic rate of income tax instituted by Gordon Brown, thus keeping the rate 1% higher than in the rest of the UK; but they quickly dropped that promise when they realised it would cost them votes.

 

The Scottish parliament now has greater tax setting powers. Scottish rate of Income tax

 

As can be seen from the tables , they have set the SRIT so that the total rate paid by Scottish taxpayers is the same as that for the rest of the UK.

 

Do try to keep up.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, agudbuk said:

If England stops subsidising Scotland and they want the same levels of services (free NHS prescriptions etc) then scottish taxation will have to rise

Sent from my Grand using Tapatalk
 

You should be more specific - London and the SE subsidise Scotland, as they do every other part of the UK.

 

Scotland, on the other hand, subsidises every part of England with the exception of the cash cow areas I mentioned. However we do not rub anyone's noses in it. Gratitude is not expected.

[7by7]

52 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

At least you are honest about your lack of willingness to show interest, and your reliance upon innate arrogance. I suppose, therefore, there is no point suggesting that you educate yourself about Scottish contributions the the UK exchequer

A typical response when presented with facts you don't care for.

 

It seems that, like the SNP, you are happy to broadcast the amount Scotland contributes to the UK Exchequer, whilst ignoring the amount it takes out!

This puff from the Scottish government, rightly, says that for 2013/14 Scottish tax revenue £400 per head higher than UK. But it neglects to mention that expenditure in the same period in Scotland was £1200 per head higher (source)!

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by 7by7
Correct typo

[7by7]

18 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Do try to keep up.

 

Forgive me for relying on information from the Scottish Parliament!

 

That Telegraph reports says the threshold and rate for the higher tax band in Scotland will be frozen, though previously the SNP promised to increase the threshold.  So the SNP have reneged on a promise about tax yet again!

 

Did you not previously dismiss a report from the Telegraph because it was pro unionist?

 

Yes, you did!

 

It seems that when a newspaper reports something you like it's unbiased and factual, but when it reports something you don't like it's biased and unreliable!

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by 7by7

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

A typical response when presented with facts you don't care for.

Are you a novelty account?

 

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 I'm not going to bother checking the accuracy of the above claims, but I do wonder how many of them would have been possible without the subsidy Scotland receives from English taxpayers.

 

[7by7]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

You didn't but the underlying tone of the post from 7by7 was that the SNP was taking Scotland down the road to a modern day version of Nazi Germany.

 

48 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

....I posted a link to explain the difference between Civic Nationalism and National Socialism in an attempt to counter the deplorable suggestion by another that the SNP was a one-way road to gas chambers in Scotland.........

It is you who keeps on bringing up the Nazis, not I!

 

I explained my meaning when you first attempted this lie.

 

[7by7]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Are you a novelty account?

What are you on about?

 

That I didn't bother to check the accuracy of claims you, yourself, admitted you copied from elsewhere without checking?

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I'm sure that's not far off.

 

But consider population density; the Barnett formula is not for nothing.

 

Also, what if Scots preferred higher taxes for superior services?

 

I really think a clean break would be best now.

Actually, based on further research, the Barnett formula is indeed an unfair anachronism and should be changed over a reasonable period. HOW a devolved region spends their money is up to them, but the total allocation requires a fairer formula. ( That's the Yorkshireman in me speaking. "Where there's muck there's brass")

[khunken]

8 hours ago, jpinx said:

Apart from the usual rhetoric, was there not some restriction on repeating the referendum in the enabling act?  If not - I sure hope they put a 25 year limit on the next one or we'll end up suffering from referendumitis.  Scotland might be better using the Swiss model of frequent referendums, but the SNP will probably shut that door in case a "Unionist" cause gets going and they have to partition Scotland --  sounding familiar anyone?

 

The inside view of nationalist movements in Ireland, Yugoslavia, etc would indicate that once the objective is achieved, or not, there is a vacuum, a dearth of policies to enable people to get on with life and enjoy the status.  Independence movements are, but their very nature, one-trick-ponies, and have proven to be useless when there is nothing to kick against. 

Referring to your 2nd paragraph, it is wrong on every count.

All through the 20th century nationalist movements have succeeded in creating successful independent countries, many after finally being able to kick out the empires of Britain, Spain, France, Yugoslavia and others. In fact it is very much alive and well right now in Bosnia, Spain, Kashmir & even in the south of Thailand.

 

When it succeeds (e.g. India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Croatia) it is obvious that there is 'nothing to kick against' but the only vacuum has been a short period during the transfer of power which is not difficult to understand.

 

Even in Ireland it has not died out but has been hurt by those who want to achieve it by violent means. Too many little Englanders, still ruing the loss of empire, like to arrogantly put down any talk of nationalism in Scotland and anywhere else. Quite a few cannot see the hypocrisy of Brexit being quite similar to a nationalistic move agianst all those 'dictators' in Europe.

Edited February 11, 2017 by khunken

[nontabury]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

 

The entire UK is going down the pan. I have been an expat since 2001 and each time I go back, the gradual decline in UK standards are increasingly stark - the UK under successive Westminster governments is becoming more and more feral. To suggest that we have problems in Scotland while the entire country is going to the dogs is incredibly myopic. Blairism started the rot; Cameron firmly cemented it in place.

 

 I would agree with much of what you've said. However let's not forget that both Blair and his successor Brown are Scottish. It would seem that Sturgion is just carry on the Tradition.