jpinx Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: As unfounded smear attempts go, that is the most repulsive of the lot. https://msu.edu/user/hillrr/161lec16.htm such drivel....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuamRudy Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, jpinx said: such drivel....... Do you feel equally as dismissive of the suggestion that the SNP shows signs of totalinarianism because they have the word 'national' in their name? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 2 hours ago, vogie said: I am so glad we seem to be losing the Yorkshire side to you, many of us from Yorkshire will be truly relieved Jock. I'm actually ALSO 100% Yorkshire AND 100% European but these are different albeit orthogonal dimensions. Appropriate use of i and j will resolve for you ?. Multidimensional character you see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 minute ago, RuamRudy said: Do you feel equally as dismissive of the suggestion that the SNP shows signs of totalinarianism because they have the word 'national' in their name? SNP are , by definition, a one-trick pony. The want Independence at *ANY* cost. They have no policies that extend past that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuamRudy Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 minute ago, jpinx said: SNP are , by definition, a one-trick pony. The want Independence at *ANY* cost. They have no policies that extend past that day. That may be true, but to suggest that the independence movement is akin to national socialism is abhorrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 labels,, labels... It's like the Label "Christian Democrat" --- Christ was no democrat !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: Engilsh devolution, for me, is essential if IndyRef2 either fails to materialise or fails. It seems that there is an increasing desire for it within England although I am not sure whether Westminster would be willing. Increasing? From the table in your Wikipedia link, fluctuating would be more accurate. We already have three, in some areas four, levels of government in England: parish councils local councils county councils (or equivalent such as the GLA) Parliament. I see little reason for my tax money paying to enable even more politicians to put their noses in the trough! 15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: But it is the very fact that there is not a devolved English parliament that means very few bills that go through the commons are purely English in impact - anything that affects spending in Westminster, for example, affects the devolved parliaments, hence what is often seen as their interference in 'English Only' matters. Scotland sets it's own housing policy, yet in January 2016 Scottish MPs were furious when the measure to stop them voting on English only matters was used for the first time and they were prevented from voting on English only measures in the Housing Bill! Scottish MPs react with fury as only English and Welsh MPs are allowed to vote on housing bill Quote Mr Wishart (SNP) said: "This is a remarkable day and I think it is worth noting the significance, how historical this is because for the first time in the history of this House, of this parliament, members of parliament will be banned from participating in divisions of this House based on nationality and geographic location of constituency. Wrong, Mt Wishart. Firstly, you were not prevented from voting because you are Scottish; your nationality played no part. You were prevented from voting because you represent a Scottish constituency and this was an English only matter. Secondly, it's by no means the first time; English, Welsh and Irish MPs have been prevented from voting on Scottish only matters due to the geographic location of their constituency since the Act of Union in 1707! Many Scottish only matters 31 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: affects spending in Westminster so, using your own argument, should be voted on by all MPs, not just Scottish ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, 7by7 said: ...........Many Scottish only matters so, using your own argument, should be voted on by all MPs, not just Scottish ones. It's all part of the SNP's smokescreen, actually they don't give a tuppeny damn about English matters, they voted against fox-hunting to appease the greens, and they will vote for anything that highlights the lack of independence -- whether relevant or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: That may be true, but to suggest that the independence movement is akin to national socialism is abhorrent. Except no one said that. I merely warned about nationalist movements, and the SNP is a nationalist movement, being loathe to give up power once their aim has been achieved. If you took that to infer my saying the SNP are akin to the Nazis, then maybe you have concerns of your own! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuamRudy Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 minute ago, 7by7 said: Increasing? From the table in your Wikipedia link, fluctuating would be more accurate. We already have three, in some areas four, levels of government in England: parish councils local councils county councils (or equivalent such as the GLA) Parliament. I see little reason for my tax money paying to enable even more politicians to put their noses in the trough! Scotland sets it's own housing policy, yet in January 2016 Scottish MPs were furious when the measure to stop them voting on English only matters was used for the first time and they were prevented from voting on English only measures in the Housing Bill! Scottish MPs react with fury as only English and Welsh MPs are allowed to vote on housing bill Wrong, Mt Wishart. Firstly, you were not prevented from voting because you are Scottish; your nationality played no part. You were prevented from voting because you represent a Scottish constituency and this was an English only matter. Secondly, it's by no means the first time; English, Welsh and Irish MPs have been prevented from voting on Scottish only matters due to the geographic location of their constituency since the Act of Union in 1707! . A matter of stylistics, of course, but would it be at all possible for you to write in a manner that isn't the textual equivalent of shouting in people's faces? I find it makes me not want to interact with you. The link you supplied is typical Telegraph - heavy on the SNP bashing with nothing to explain why Mr Wishart was upset. Without explaining exactly what the closed door sessions were about, I cannot comment on whether he was perfectly justified or simply petulent. As I mentioned earlier, literally anything that means spending in England will have an impact upon the regions. 10 minutes ago, 7by7 said: Many Scottish only matters 44 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: affects spending in Westminster so, using your own argument, should be voted on by all MPs, not just Scottish ones. Can you explain this one a bit more - Scottish spending is from Holyrood, and that allocatin comes at the end of the process, not the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuamRudy Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, 7by7 said: I merely warned about nationalist movements, and the SNP is a nationalist movement, being loathe to give up power once their aim has been achieved. Please, explain this one to me - how have they ever thwarted the democratic process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 hour ago, jpinx said: I base my comment on the reception by Junkers, Schultz and others. All saying yes, you can join, if you pass the entrance exam all the way from square one as a new applicant -- in other words absolutely no concessions, and no credit for having been a "part-member" before. I don't see tinkerbell travelling around her "EU friends" to keep them warm - only rhetoric and whining from the safety of Holyrood..... I just don't see it that way. Most likely Junkers, Schultz et al are being diplomatic due to the current febrile state. Scotland would fit perfectly and the Scots would adjust their fiscal and monetary position as appropriate. To reiterate, both the Euro and Schengen area (great, if imperfect, ideas) will surely adjust to avoid brittle fracture. You make a grave mistake if you think these characters are fools...... Anyway, I do hope it works out that way..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Baerboxer said: Who knows how they decide or actually work. But one things for sure. All new applicants must adopt the Euro; must accept Schengen; must accept the dominance of EU law; and must meet the financial criteria set by the EU. They also must receive a vote of acceptance by every current member state. So Salmond lied when he suggested otherwise; as did Sturgeon. They were desperate to try and link a vote for independence to mean automatic EU entry in a bid to win more voters over. What a surprise. I think you'll find that a few bottles of The Famous Grouse will lubricate the proceedings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: A matter of stylistics, of course, but would it be at all possible for you to write in a manner that isn't the textual equivalent of shouting in people's faces? I find it makes me not want to interact with you. You what? WERE I POSTING ALL IN CAPITALS, YOU WOULD HAVE A POINT! But I don't. Surely it's not my use of, or at least attempted use of, correct grammar which upsets you? 14 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: The link you supplied is typical Telegraph - heavy on the SNP bashing with nothing to explain why Mr Wishart was upset. It did; he was upset because he couldn't vote on the English only aspects of the housing bill. It even quoted him saying exactly that! 15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: As I mentioned earlier, literally anything that means spending in England will have an impact upon the regions. Really? How so? Do you mean that the more English taxpayers money spent in England, the less there is to give to Scotland? 17 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: Can you explain this one a bit more - Scottish spending is from Holyrood, and that allocatin comes at the end of the process, not the beginning Not all; see above for an example; and all the money comes from Westminster; most of it from English taxpayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 18 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: Please, explain this one to me - how have they ever thwarted the democratic process? They haven't; yet. But you, yourself, have stated many times that you merely see the SNP as the means to an end, and when (if) Scottish independence is achieved the Scottish voters will ditch them. They may not want to go and may use such power as available to them to hang on as long as they can. They have already shown a certain contempt for the democratic process in calling for a second referendum almost immediately after losing the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Baerboxer said: No. I don't see any good political leaders in the UK; or in EU for that matter. Sadly Europe is heading backwards and those who fought in two world wars in the hope of a just fair society for all must be spinning in their graves. Have a look at how many PM's, Chancellors and cabinet ministers have been Scottish or half Scottish since Victorian times. Then tell me that Scots don't influence things. Check on military Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals too. Scotland and Scots have always influenced and ensured their voice is heard. Many well to do, landed Scots, let's call them Absentee Landlords for fun, are much closer to Westminster than Scottish ideas.A member of our Gentlemen's luncheon club in Bangkok is actually captain of a very famous clan but sounds like an old Etonian! I'm sure it's been that way for a couple of hundred years and the Scots certainly ran the Empire. But, I see typical Scots these days as being much closer to other Northern Europeans with their social democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintLouisBlues Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 14 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said: So Scotland gets independence which I am not against if that's what the majority want but sturgeon doesn't just want that she wants joining the EU, as it will have too. Again if that's what the Scots want good luck to them. The report in detail said: Get to the back of the queue - 2020 at the earliest Scotland will have to agree to use the Euro as its currency The Scottish economy taken by itself is even more of a basket case that Greece, so why would the EU want Scotland as a member Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 5 hours ago, SaintLouisBlues said: The report in detail said: Get to the back of the queue - 2020 at the earliest Scotland will have to agree to use the Euro as its currency The Scottish economy taken by itself is even more of a basket case that Greece, so why would the EU want Scotland as a member Nothing to worry about there -- 2017 start negotiations, 2019 get the deal signed, 2020 referendum in Scotland The euro is a given. UK is most unlikely to want to share a currency with independent Scotland. Ah - there is the misconception which I have tried to allay several times. EU is not about money, it's about the combination of money and power. Scotland will be a perfect little lapdog, in the same way as the other minnows who manage to keep their books in order. Greece becoming a member with falsified books only demonstrates just how much the EU wants power, and is prepared to pay for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 14 hours ago, 7by7 said: They haven't; yet. But you, yourself, have stated many times that you merely see the SNP as the means to an end, and when (if) Scottish independence is achieved the Scottish voters will ditch them. They may not want to go and may use such power as available to them to hang on as long as they can. They have already shown a certain contempt for the democratic process in calling for a second referendum almost immediately after losing the first. Apart from the usual rhetoric, was there not some restriction on repeating the referendum in the enabling act? If not - I sure hope they put a 25 year limit on the next one or we'll end up suffering from referendumitis. Scotland might be better using the Swiss model of frequent referendums, but the SNP will probably shut that door in case a "Unionist" cause gets going and they have to partition Scotland -- sounding familiar anyone? The inside view of nationalist movements in Ireland, Yugoslavia, etc would indicate that once the objective is achieved, or not, there is a vacuum, a dearth of policies to enable people to get on with life and enjoy the status. Independence movements are, but their very nature, one-trick-ponies, and have proven to be useless when there is nothing to kick against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nontabury Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 I've got some T-shirts for sale. You must order quickly before the SNP Rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 11 minutes ago, jpinx said: Nothing to worry about there -- 2017 start negotiations, 2019 get the deal signed, 2020 referendum in Scotland The euro is a given. UK is most unlikely to want to share a currency with independent Scotland. Ah - there is the misconception which I have tried to allay several times. EU is not about money, it's about the combination of money and power. Scotland will be a perfect little lapdog, in the same way as the other minnows who manage to keep their books in order. Greece becoming a member with falsified books only demonstrates just how much the EU wants power, and is prepared to pay for it. Are conspiracy theories correlated with paranoia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, jpinx said: Apart from the usual rhetoric, was there not some restriction on repeating the referendum in the enabling act? If not - I sure hope they put a 25 year limit on the next one or we'll end up suffering from referendumitis. Scotland might be better using the Swiss model of frequent referendums, but the SNP will probably shut that door in case a "Unionist" cause gets going and they have to partition Scotland -- sounding familiar anyone? The inside view of nationalist movements in Ireland, Yugoslavia, etc would indicate that once the objective is achieved, or not, there is a vacuum, a dearth of policies to enable people to get on with life and enjoy the status. Independence movements are, but their very nature, one-trick-ponies, and have proven to be useless when there is nothing to kick against. So we can expect the imminent demise of UKIP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuamRudy Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Just now, Grouse said: Are conspiracy theories correlated with paranoia? Apparently you just need to state a fantastic hypothesis - if it is about the SNP then it is taken as fact. It works even better if you highlight the fact that their name includes the word 'National' in it - then you can even ignore the mountain of evidence to the contrary, and make broad hints, without fear of retribution, that the SNP will transform Scotland into Hitler's Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuamRudy Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, Grouse said: So we can expect the imminent demise of UKIP? We can definitely hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 For crying out loud let Scotland go. Those who want to move to England or Wales are free to do so before England builds that wall. Be kind of nice to see a Scottish passport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuamRudy Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 7 minutes ago, jpinx said: The inside view of nationalist movements in Ireland, Yugoslavia, etc would indicate that once the objective is achieved, or not, there is a vacuum, a dearth of policies to enable people to get on with life and enjoy the status. Independence movements are, but their very nature, one-trick-ponies, and have proven to be useless when there is nothing to kick against. Do you think that Scots don't have the political or intellectual capability of thinking beyond the conundrum of independence or subjugation? We have our own working parliament, representing a panoply of political thought. Whydo you suggest that our existing institutions collapse under the weight of self determination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agudbuk Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 For crying out loud let Scotland go. Those who want to move to England or Wales are free to do so before England builds that wall. Be kind of nice to see a Scottish passport.Subject to extreme vetting. Sent from my Grand using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 1 minute ago, agudbuk said: Subject to extreme vetting. Sent from my Grand using Tapatalk Goes without saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nontabury Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 45 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: Apparently you just need to state a fantastic hypothesis - if it is about the SNP then it is taken as fact. It works even better if you highlight the fact that their name includes the word 'National' in it - then you can even ignore the mountain of evidence to the contrary, and make broad hints, without fear of retribution, that the SNP will transform Scotland into Hitler's Germany. Well one persons already prepared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 (edited) . Edited February 11, 2017 by Grouse Caution being the better part of valour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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