How to help a Thai pronounce 'r'?

[AbeSurd]

This isn't about the Thai language but it's kind of about Thai pronunciation, so I hope this forum is the right place.

For more than a year now I've been trying - informally and unpaid - to help a Thai friend with her English. She has the typical problem with the 'r' sound.

Do you think if I encourage her to roll her 'r' it will help her?

Thanks.

[carlyai]

If you look at a Lao language learning book, you will see that all the R words are L words in Lao. If your friend speaks North Eastern Thai, then they don't miss pronunce the Ro Rua words, they just pronounce the Lao version using LoLing. So to my mind, they say the word correctly, but not in Central Thai, but in North Eastern Thai.

If you friend speaks a native central Thai dialect, she would use the RoRua and no problems.

There is also a linguistic thingy (forget the name of it now, long time since so did my ESL), and the Asian face, throat, tongue, sinus cavities, jaw etc are structured different than Western people, this also has a bearing on speech and pronunciation.

I wouldn't worry, but if you are still, like my aviator (playing a violin to a buffalo), download Doulch list, pick out all the L and R words and practise half an hour a Day, after you finish the hour of calculus. [emoji38]

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[AbeSurd]

24 minutes ago, carlyai said:

There is also a linguistic thingy (forget the name of it now, long time since so did my ESL), and the Asian face, throat, tongue, sinus cavities, jaw etc are structured different than Western people, this also has a bearing on speech and pronunciation.
 

That's interesting. Thank you.

 

My friend spent her early life in Isaan but I believe she only speaks Thai and not Lao. When speaking Thai, most of the time, if not all of the time, she doesn't do RoRua.

[Oxx]

In standard English the "r" is not rolled.  It's more a feature of Scottish English.  (That's assuming by "rolled" you mean an alveolar trill.)

 

Is the speaker able correctly to pronounce the Thai letters ror ruea and lor ling? If so it's not a physical pronunciation problem, so what is needed is attention to the difference, and consistency in pronunciation.  (Technically ror reua isn't the same as an English "r", but it's close enough.)  One technique you could try is to draw up a list of words which differ only in the "r" and "l" sound.  Start with monosyllabic ones, e.g. rob/lob, rye/my, rung/lung, reek/leak, rate/late, rude/lewd and ask her to read through them until she can produce the sounds consistently.  Then convert the words to flashcards so they are presented in random order.

 

 

[AbeSurd]

1 hour ago, Oxx said:

In standard English the "r" is not rolled.  It's more a feature of Scottish English.  (That's assuming by "rolled" you mean an alveolar trill.)

 

Is the speaker able correctly to pronounce the Thai letters ror ruea and lor ling? If so it's not a physical pronunciation problem, so what is needed is attention to the difference, and consistency in pronunciation.  (Technically ror reua isn't the same as an English "r", but it's close enough.)  One technique you could try is to draw up a list of words which differ only in the "r" and "l" sound.  Start with monosyllabic ones, e.g. rob/lob, rye/my, rung/lung, reek/leak, rate/late, rude/lewd and ask her to read through them until she can produce the sounds consistently.  Then convert the words to flashcards so they are presented in random order.

 

 

Yes, I'm meaning something like the Scottish English 'r' and, yes, she can do ror ruea a lot of the time if she concentrates.

And, yes, I'm already trying that trick you suggest with lists of words differing only in the 'l' and 'r' - and she does quite well ('lorry' and 'lolly' are a lot of fun). But it can get more tricky with more complex words containing 'r' and other sounds Thais find difficult.

 

I guess I think the thing about rolling the 'r' is that it not only emphasises the difference in sound between 'l' and 'r' but also makes an 'r' feel very different in the mouth from an 'l'.

 

Incidentally, sometimes I get the impression that Thais who can ror ruea okay, roll their 'r'.

[tgeezer]

This is confusing are you trying to teach her to speak English? Do you want to teach a Thai to say R for Romeo Eng which is completely different from the the rolled r, ร and shouldn't be difficult. For r they must not to use the tip of the tongue as they do with L ล and ร. The tongue is in the same position as in ย and y, the back of the tongue is almost touching the roof of the mouth. The difference between ย y and r is in how the sound is projected forward. Switch between rank and yank.


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[AbeSurd]

1 hour ago, AbeSurd said:

Incidentally, sometimes I get the impression that Thais who can ror ruea okay, roll their 'r'.

Here I'm talking about Thais who can do ror ruea and are speaking Thai. Sometimes I get the impression that they roll their ror ruea.

[tgeezer]

Of course Thai ร is a trill I t is nothing like r . Lazy speech doesn't use ร the tip of the tongue is not trilled so they end up saying ล.
Scottish accent has a trilled r.

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[carlyai]

Just remembered. There's a couple of books with tapes, or there used to be, called 'Ship or Sheep'. They give English pronunciation practice and also give the mouth, tongue positions as well. There's also another one ....Oh can't remember now, but it's sorta like 'she sells sea shells by the sea shore' and lots of listening.....got it 'Jazz Chants'.

But I wouldn't worry unless your friend wants to hide her Lao speaking heritage (yes I know, Bangkok people don't think much of Isaan Keo). Remember, finish the calculus homework first, it will probably be easier. [emoji16]

I don't mean any disrespect, It's just me.

Included this from my Isaan Thai book.



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[AbeSurd]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

Just remembered. There's a couple of books with tapes, or there used to be, called 'Ship or Sheep'. They give English pronunciation practice and also give the mouth, tongue positions as well. There's also another one ....Oh can't remember now, but it's sorta like 'she sells sea shells by the sea shore' and lots of listening.....got it 'Jazz Chants'.

But I wouldn't worry unless your friend wants to hide her Lao speaking heritage (yes I know, Bangkok people don't think much of Isaan Keo). Remember, finish the calculus homework first, it will probably be easier.

I don't mean any disrespect, It's just me.

Included this from my Isaan Thai book.



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I wouldn't presume to try and tell her how to pronounce Thai. If she speaks Thai largely without using ror ruea, so be it. As I understand it, 90 percent of Thais - not just Isaan folk - do more or less the same.

But English is a different matter. She's a university student, and when she speaks English, if she's going to try and speak it in a half decent way, I believe she needs to try and get the 'r' sound as often as possible.

Thanks for the info about the pronunciation aids.

I should've titled this thread 'How to help a Thai pronounce 'r' when speaking English'.

[carlyai]

Just as an aside....the first 3 years of schooling (probably in Thailand as well), sets a person up for 'acquiring' a language.

What she is/will be doing is 'learning' a language.

I'm not sure she will learn English at a Thai university. She needs a native English tutor speaker, (someone who knows what they're doing). She needs to practice one-on - one, or in a small group, every night for at least 1 hour. She needs to read the Bangkok Post and do the English language thingies as well. She needs to get some good IELTS books and practice them as well. She must get out of her comfort zone and always try to speak English whenever she can. You really can't do speaking on its own.

Not to put you off, but someone who comes to learn English with an initial IELTS score of 4.5, will probably get to 5.0 or 6.0 after a year of intensive study.

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[carlyai]

Sorry, that's why I say calculus is easier. ?

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[AbeSurd]

22 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Sorry, that's why I say calculus is easier. ?
 

Calculus, buffalos, violins - such a complicated world. So do you think if I encourage her to roll her 'r' it will make it easier for her to pronounce English words better?

[Horatio Poke]

In answer to the original question, " Do you think if I encourage her to roll her 'r' it will help her? " my answer is Yes it often helps when a word begins with R.  It is my experience that it makes the speaker very aware of when a word begins with an R, so more than actually helping directly with pronunciation it in fact increases awareness of how a word should be spoken.

 

Rolling Rs  is counterproductive when the R is within a word  i.e. "parade" and "mirage" are very difficult to pronounce with rolled Rs and the "palace-Paris difficulty" is as much to do with listening skills as with pronunciation skills.

[djayz]

Your friend can try this exercise at home in front of a mirror. It has helped many of my students with the same problem. 

 

 

[oldcarguy]

I like the google drawing . are there more and do you have a link ?

 

thanks

 

and I cannot roll my Spanish "R"

[Panda13]

Have you tried an eye patch and a parrot?

[tgeezer]

Your friend can try this exercise at home in front of a mirror. It has helped many of my students with the same problem. 
 
 

Crikey this is where I am going wrong with my English accent, I have a Southern English drawl.
My r and the r of most americans doesn't involve the tip of the tongue at all.
In the Life of Brian The Proconsul says w for r, "Is he a โวมัน" " fetch โวเจอ funny and quite understandable. No r involved ih his friends names Biggus Dickus and his wife Incontinenta, you need to have seen the film to know how irresistable this is to mention.
To resume, r illustrated here and my method where the back of the tongue starts at the roof of the mouth seem more like a vowels, maybe that is the problem.


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[AbeSurd]

13 hours ago, Horatio Poke said:

In answer to the original question, " Do you think if I encourage her to roll her 'r' it will help her? " my answer is Yes it often helps when a word begins with R.  It is my experience that it makes the speaker very aware of when a word begins with an R, so more than actually helping directly with pronunciation it in fact increases awareness of how a word should be spoken.

 

Rolling Rs  is counterproductive when the R is within a word  i.e. "parade" and "mirage" are very difficult to pronounce with rolled Rs and the "palace-Paris difficulty" is as much to do with listening skills as with pronunciation skills.

Thank you for a direct answer to my question!

 

But I'm not sure I really agree with you about 'r' in the middle of a word. At most I'd say an 'r' at the beginning of a word may be marginally easier than if 'r' starts a syllable. It may depend on the vowel preceding it. For example, for me, rolling the 'r' in parade is pretty easy, whereas 'mirage' is slightly more difficult.

 

I think it's better to roll the 'r' with a little difficulty than say "palade".

 

You mention listening skills. I agree. My friend can't seem to hear the difference between 'ch' and 'sh'.

[djayz]

1 hour ago, AbeSurd said:

Thank you for a direct answer to my question!

 

But I'm not sure I really agree with you about 'r' in the middle of a word. At most I'd say an 'r' at the beginning of a word may be marginally easier than if 'r' starts a syllable. It may depend on the vowel preceding it. For example, for me, rolling the 'r' in parade is pretty easy, whereas 'mirage' is slightly more difficult.

 

I think it's better to roll the 'r' with a little difficulty than say "palade".

 

You mention listening skills. I agree. My friend can't seem to hear the difference between 'ch' and 'sh'.

"ch" is a short sound and "sh" is a long and soft sound. 

One exercise you can do for your friend is to hold an unfolded tissue paper by the top corners in both hands close to your face. When you say "ch" the tissue paper should move/flap. Then, try it again saying "sh" and there should be absolutely no movement at all (tissue paper). 

Now have your friend repeat the same exercise. 

 

[oldcarguy]

Does anyone know a THAI website that shows where your  tongue is placed to pronounce the Thai Alphabet ?

 

This is for a Thai person who lost her speech  after a stroke and needs to relearn  how to speak ?

 

something like the drawing above  might help her to understand , what she needs to do ,

 

it  is best if its made for a Thai........but  OK if its made for an English speaker to learn Thai

 

website or youtube  would help a lot

 

Thanks for your help

 

 

[Gentlemc]

In Thailand , when someone talk correct in  " R" ,please assume they come form Buriram or Su rin  because many people there can speak Cambodian.

[changside]

Is this what you mean?

[tgeezer]

An interesting post. Imaging asking a taxi for Horizon Bar when the name is obviously Ho'lie'son Bar!


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[oxo1947]

On 15/2/2560 at 9:46 AM, AbeSurd said:

She has the typical problem with the 'r' sound.

Do you think if I encourage her to roll her 'r' it will help her?

Thanks.

No,---- Speaking a foreign language essentially about communication, do English speaking people understand her when she speaks ..... Does it really matter if--"The Rain in Spain doesn't stay mainly in the plain" Your time would be much better spent teaching her syntax then trying to alter what is essentially a Thai accent--IMO.