Time Up For Some 30 Day Visa Runners

[Scott]

Although most of the posters on this forum are reasonably good people who are contributing to the Thai economy, there is a rather large class of visa runners who really are the dregs of society. They aren't wanted in their own country and Thailand no longer wants them either. I once lived in a neighborhood populated with a lot of these people--severe alcoholics and drug addicts. They could live well here and were often financed by families back home.

There are all kinds of other groups as well, some involved in dodgy deals and others just plainly illegal activities.

Over the years the number of expats in the kingdom has grown and grown. I don't think the gov't has any kind of a handle on whose here anymore. And don't forget that there are lots and lots of people from around Asia that they have to condend with, and some of them are really up to no good.

The presence of some of the Mafia, including the Russian Mafia, also make for problems.

As the country develops, it needs less and less of a lot of these kind of people. Unfortunately, when they "draw a line in the sand", others get caught on the wrong side and can't stay either. But for the less desirable types, there's still Cambodia who takes everyone with open arms!

I think that the a lot of the long termers here overestimate their importance. If we are gone tomorrow, the country will survive just fine and there will still be millions of moneyed tourists coming for the winter months.

[gpt]

Sorry to be so pedantic on this wonderful sunny morn. I have seen the term 'western farang', is there such a thing as an 'eastern farang'?

A farang is a white person.

The Thai consider the Mexicans, Spanish, Portugese, Brazilians, Greek, Russian, Czech, whatever etc falang. Actually most are amazed when I show them pictures of the Cubans or Mexicans and how much they look like the Thai! The South Americans looks very much like the Thai with a slightly different nose, but then again all Thai certainly don't have the same nose. The term falang is nothing more than ignorance, it doesn't mean foreigner, it means pretty much the same as the "N" word did in the United States years ago.

Farang originally meant Frenchman/woman. Now it is used for virtually any non-Asian person, just like we would use the word 'foreigner'. Yes, farang can be used in a derogatory fashion or even in a jocular way. Are you Thai? Do you look Asian? If you can answer no, then you are a farang.

My Thai neighbour has just walked past my house and he does look like Fidel Castro, in fact he could be his double! :D

[Krub]

Although most of the posters on this forum are reasonably good people who are contributing to the Thai economy, there is a rather large class of visa runners who really are the dregs of society. They aren't wanted in their own country and Thailand no longer wants them either. I once lived in a neighborhood populated with a lot of these people--severe alcoholics and drug addicts. They could live well here and were often financed by families back home.

There are all kinds of other groups as well, some involved in dodgy deals and others just plainly illegal activities.

Over the years the number of expats in the kingdom has grown and grown. I don't think the gov't has any kind of a handle on whose here anymore. And don't forget that there are lots and lots of people from around Asia that they have to condend with, and some of them are really up to no good.

The presence of some of the Mafia, including the Russian Mafia, also make for problems.

As the country develops, it needs less and less of a lot of these kind of people. Unfortunately, when they "draw a line in the sand", others get caught on the wrong side and can't stay either. But for the less desirable types, there's still Cambodia who takes everyone with open arms!

I think that the a lot of the long termers here overestimate their importance. If we are gone tomorrow, the country will survive just fine and there will still be millions of moneyed tourists coming for the winter months.

Well said. A minority which makes it more difficult for the majority

[rexall]

Although most of the posters on this forum are reasonably good people who are contributing to the Thai economy, there is a rather large class of visa runners who really are the dregs of society . . . As the country develops, it needs less and less of a lot of these kind of people. Unfortunately, when they "draw a line in the sand", others get caught on the wrong side and can't stay either. But for the less desirable types, there's still Cambodia who takes everyone with open arms!

I think that the a lot of the long termers here overestimate their importance. If we are gone tomorrow, the country will survive just fine and there will still be millions of moneyed tourists coming for the winter months.

Totalitarian states figured out a cool way of dealing with the "dregs of society"; mental hospitals, prisons, banishment, concentration camps, gallows. If people in a country, any country, are breaking the law, they ought to be arrested, prosecuted, punished, and, if applicable, deported. But criminal activity and anti-social behavior has nothing to do with one's immigration status! Even if you could prove that criminal activity is statistically higher among a certain group (Jews, blacks, disgusting poor people, 30 day visa runners, etc.) it doesn't follow that you solve the problem by banning or punishing and an entire group of people. While that might in fact be convenient and expedient, it is not considered a humane tool for modern governments who want to be a part of the international community.

Aloha,

Rex

[Maestro]

Farang originally meant Frenchman/woman.

Yours is one of several hypotheses. For details, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farang

--

Maestro

[pampal]

Farang is an Iranian/Persian word meaning foreign.

If you look at the word itself, you can see that farang and foreign are very related. If you substitute the ng in farang with the gn in foreign, they are the same word,almost.

[gpt]

Farang originally meant Frenchman/woman.

Yours is one of several hypotheses. For details, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farang

--

Maestro

I just picked the first one to came to mind

Edited December 18, 2006 by gpt

[Heng]

In order for true progress to made, the gov't has to first eliminate the many laws restricting farang participation in local industry and commerce. Only then will luk krung offspring have an opportunity to practice and build their work ethic in a farang controlled environment. Until then, most are destined to be assimilated, exported, or worse yet: thrown into the entertainment industry meat grinder. The empowerment, as of now, ends when the pension payments stop coming or when the farang patriarch/matriarch dies.

It is SO obvious.

Now, Heng, will you tell us your stand honestly?? Cynism or what??

Please spread the word amongst your peers on the "elimination of the many laws restricting farang participation in local industry and commerce", thanks!

WITH REFERENCE TO MANY POSTS ABOVE (even if we stray): THE SINO-THAI RULING CLASS WON'T BE ABLE TO MAINTAIN THE "STATUS QUO" MUCH LONGER.

ASSIMILATION OF INCREASED FOREIGN POPULATIONS (INCLUDING WHITE ROUND EYED FOREIGNERS) WILL HAVE TO HAPPEN IN THE LOS, as it is happening and will happen everywhere else.

No matter what new backwards movements the old "elite" has in store, it's already an Old Guard battle they are waging!

(BTW: Who is not I absolutely convinced that a lot of the troubles Farangs experience with their visa situation can be DIRECTLY related to the XENOPHOBIA of the Sino-Thai ruling class???)

What stand? I'm simply telling it like it is. I'll continue to do so without taking anyone's side (other than my own).

The trouble that a lot of farangs -and by no means all- experience is often no fault other than their own (the most common is wanting to move here before they are financially prepared). Farangs, after jumping through the appropriate hoops CAN and DO live here permanently. Many choose not to and instead choose to do it the hard way, that's their right as well.

[anon467367354]

Farang originally meant Frenchman/woman.

Yours is one of several hypotheses. For details, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farang

--

Maestro

What a great post Maestro! The fact that it refers to the "white foreigner", or originally did is true. Today it is referred to anyone who is not Asian, excluding the people of India. To be associated with them would be a total insult for sure, oh! an the Phillipine people too. What I find interesting is that the Thai refer to the Hispanics as farang too. Last weekend in Petchaburi in a beach house with 3 other Thai women, they were curious as to where Brazil and Argentina were, along with Puerto Rico and Cuba. The Thai have lived an isolated life for a long time, I think it might be up to us to educate and maybe enlighten a little about the world out there. Not expect to change Thailand, but give them the tools. We don't say the "N" word, use "chinks", or "orientals" anymore because we have grown., According to Luangphor Viriyang Sirintharo, founder of Wat Dhamanmongkol, ethics come from a developed mind, I think that's obvious.

[thai_narak]

Farang originally meant Frenchman/woman.

Yours is one of several hypotheses. For details, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farang

--

Maestro

What a great post Maestro! The fact that it refers to the "white foreigner", or originally did is true. Today it is referred to anyone who is not Asian, excluding the people of India. To be associated with them would be a total insult for sure, oh! an the Phillipine people too. What I find interesting is that the Thai refer to the Hispanics as farang too. Last weekend in Petchaburi in a beach house with 3 other Thai women, they were curious as to where Brazil and Argentina were, along with Puerto Rico and Cuba. The Thai have lived an isolated life for a long time, I think it might be up to us to educate and maybe enlighten a little about the world out there. Not expect to change Thailand, but give them the tools. We don't say the "N" word, use "chinks", or "orientals" anymore because we have grown., According to Luangphor Viriyang Sirintharo, founder of Wat Dhamanmongkol, ethics come from a developed mind, I think that's obvious.

The word farang which is a colloquial term for foreigner has been always associated with caucasian people since they obviously look foreigner in LOS unlike other foreigners of non-caucasian origin. But by law, foreigner or alien, includes all races (non-thai).

[phuketdiver]

With reference to your comments

Please climb down from you high opinioned horse and read the writing on the walls - this is not your country, my country, or most of the people on this site - it belongs to the Thais - if they want to introduce rules for what they feel is to the betterment of THEIR people in THEIR country they are fully entitled to do so - every other country in the world does so why not afford the Thai's the same priveleges.

So you are going to be inconvenienced - why should you have the right to do what you want, when you want , what you want just because you have money - do you not realise that this type of arrogance causes more bad feeling towards the ferang from the Thais than the guy who has little or no money and is trying to scrape a living.

So in your opinion its is going to be bad for thailand -if the thais feel they will be able to live in more harmony with fewer ferang then what is worng with that - life is more than about money - its about quality of life and it seems to me that this is the direction that the Thais are going - away from western avaricios behaviour

Be polite in someones house and they will treat you with respect - be rude and demanding and you will be frequently asked to leave -try imagining that a country is a house and not your own personal club

I think the value of the western farang is about to be understood.

The value of the western farang who comes here to do legitimate business or has the financial resources to obtain a retirement visa or comes as a tourist is already understood and Thailand continues to welcome them.

The western farang who hasn't the resources to do anything other than scurry across the border every 30 days before returning to some work that generates minimal income but no foreign exchange is also understood, which is why they want them to go home.

YOU ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG

The only people the Thais can view in this light are the old or the working.

I am 37, not married to a Thai, Independently wealthy, do not work here in Thailand. I return to my home country, wish to stay here for 11 months of the year. There are no provisions for this situation.

Take your blinkers off, there are more than 3 shelves of long term visitors in Thailand.

Here is another.

My friends is retired here and married. His daughter recently from the UK has had problems, so my friend has invited his daughter to stay with him here in Jomtien so she can take some time out of life. The only visa she can obtain is a 3 month tourist visa.

Her father is wealthy and can keep her financially. She will not be working, But after 3 months will need to return to England. Where is the provision for this.

This new rules will cost more than Thailand ever imagined. It will hurt many individual Thai families, local economies, business both small and large, government Tax.

Here is another.

Wealthy travelers, between commitments (maybe redundant with cash) in the west visits southeast asia with the thought of traveling throughout. Get to Thailand and decide to stay and not visit the other countries. After three months has to leave. Cannot be bothered to go back to their home country so just continue with their travels around asia taking spending money in other countries.

Here is another

Student 12 months traveling, same as above

GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE WORLD HAS MANY DIFFERNET PEOPLE WISHING TO TRAVEL THAT CANNOT NOW STAY IN THAILAND LONG TERM. And the biggest loser will be Thailand

[MatPayne]

Stamps or days? Wait and see Lopburi, wait and see......

I am due to start a new job in Indonesia in January on a 6 week on 2 week off rotation. I was planning on being based in Thailand on my leave.

Will I now only be able to get 3 entries on visa on arrival during the 180 day period?

[PeaceBlondie]

I've been offline this weekend, and so far I've only read 6 of the 13 pages of this topic. It seems hot and heavy, one of those topics on which every poster has at least two opinions.

First there are the self-righteous folks (not necessarily religious, of course) who believe fervently that they have more assets, income, education, command of the native tongue, member length, or forum posts, than the next guy. They think this gives them the divine right to slag off everybody who has less of those things, who are the scum of the earth.

Also, we have the critics of English teachers, criticizing any usage that's less than 100.0% perfect, who seem to think that every teacher of anuban and prathom conversational English should have a Ph.D. in linguistics from Oxbridge or an Ivy League school (earning at most 40K per month, eh wot, guv'nor?).

And the worldly travellers who ensure everybody that they can easily carry 2 or 3 or 4 valid passports, as if the professional officers at the Immigration Police are dunces.

And the early retirees and the trust-fund babies who can't be arsed to get into the first class section of an airplane to fly to Perth or Zurich, because the upstairs maid just crashed the Bentley into the Lamborghini.

Have I missed the slagfest against the folks who come here for some sexual exercises?

As a general rule, there are lots of exceptions to the general rules. It ain't as simple as some simpletons think it is.

I've stopped working because the governments of Thailand couldn't be bothered to make me legal, when they easily could have. But I've never been criticized by a Thai for doing a darn good job of teaching English, almost for free. I just get criticized by farang, most of whom don't teach, most of whom have kids going to schools where less qualified teachers work.

[mitrapaap]

I think the value of the western farang is about to be understood.

The value of the western farang who comes here to do legitimate business or has the financial resources to obtain a retirement visa or comes as a tourist is already understood and Thailand continues to welcome them.

The western farang who hasn't the resources to do anything other than scurry across the border every 30 days before returning to some work that generates minimal income but no foreign exchange is also understood, which is why they want them to go home.

and where does your answer leave the people that are here on non imm b's or extensions of that do employ thais, do pay tax's, do follow the rules and the laws and are now not going to be able to get further extensions with any ease or a multiple non b anywhere close?

You are here with a non-b, you work, you employ Thais, you pay tax and all this without a work permit? Something in your maths does not match.

[mitrapaap]

No that is not what I'm saying. Those 'tourists 'are the one who dont benefit the country by avoiding paying taxes or running a business or doing anything basically. How can tyhey be a benefit to the Thais?

Sorry, but you really lost me here. What do you think generally offers greater benefit to Thais on the whole: spending 500 baht having dinner at a local restaurant or putting 500 baht in the government coffers through income tax?

You really don't get the point. Your 500 Baht in the restaurant does not help anybody else than maybe the restauarant keeper who does not pay tax. Therefore it does not really affect Thai economy. Tell me you use motorcycle taxi's everyday, and it will again not affect Thai economy in any means.

[mitrapaap]

I think the value of the western farang is about to be understood.

The value of the western farang who comes here to do legitimate business or has the financial resources to obtain a retirement visa or comes as a tourist is already understood and Thailand continues to welcome them.

The western farang who hasn't the resources to do anything other than scurry across the border every 30 days before returning to some work that generates minimal income but no foreign exchange is also understood, which is why they want them to go home.

From your post I see you must be a happy holder of a visa and or work permit. You probably have sufficent funds in your account and live life happily here in Thailand. By reading your words when you talk about people scurrying across borders makes me see your care and concern for the elderly living in this country. Possibly they wish to reside here as the weather, taxes and quality of life back home make it hard for them to have a good life. Maybe they have worked hard all their lives but weren't as fortunate as you? Maybe they have a pension less than the required amount necessary to get a visa.

Do they spend their pension checks here? Oh yes Do they help the Thai economy? More than you know!

Where is you compassion for these people? So many westerners here have such a bad attitude towards there fellow country men? Are the 30 day visa runners of lower statue in life because they fall through the cracks of the Immigrtion regultions? Not all 30 day visa runners are scum! Many are good people who just wish a better life!

Try compassion for your fellow fanang not contempt!

Yeah, all these elderly people who have worked so hard in their home countries for all their long life and have not been able to save 800,000 Baht before wishing to emmigrate to Thailand. What a pitty it is they had been poor little uneducated workers in their home country and how ununderstandable that Thailand doesn't want them.

Do you know the requirements if a Thai wants to visit Europe or US? They need a guarantee from someone there, they may need an invitation letter (even if the Thai is the MD of a 20 billion factory going for a business trip!).

People, if your home country's social security is so lousy that you can't meet the minimums required to live here then go back and fix your home country's government firs.

[junkofdavid2]

I think the value of the western farang is about to be understood.

The value of the western farang who comes here to do legitimate business or has the financial resources to obtain a retirement visa or comes as a tourist is already understood and Thailand continues to welcome them.

The western farang who hasn't the resources to do anything other than scurry across the border every 30 days before returning to some work that generates minimal income but no foreign exchange is also understood, which is why they want them to go home.

From your post I see you must be a happy holder of a visa and or work permit. You probably have sufficent funds in your account and live life happily here in Thailand. By reading your words when you talk about people scurrying across borders makes me see your care and concern for the elderly living in this country. Possibly they wish to reside here as the weather, taxes and quality of life back home make it hard for them to have a good life. Maybe they have worked hard all their lives but weren't as fortunate as you? Maybe they have a pension less than the required amount necessary to get a visa.

Do they spend their pension checks here? Oh yes Do they help the Thai economy? More than you know!

Where is you compassion for these people? So many westerners here have such a bad attitude towards there fellow country men? Are the 30 day visa runners of lower statue in life because they fall through the cracks of the Immigrtion regultions? Not all 30 day visa runners are scum! Many are good people who just wish a better life!

Try compassion for your fellow fanang not contempt!

Yeah, all these elderly people who have worked so hard in their home countries for all their long life and have not been able to save 800,000 Baht before wishing to emmigrate to Thailand. What a pitty it is they had been poor little uneducated workers in their home country and how ununderstandable that Thailand doesn't want them.

Do you know the requirements if a Thai wants to visit Europe or US? They need a guarantee from someone there, they may need an invitation letter (even if the Thai is the MD of a 20 billion factory going for a business trip!).

People, if your home country's social security is so lousy that you can't meet the minimums required to live here then go back and fix your home country's government firs.

Brilliant observation, (although I don't believe in "revenging" on the ordinary citizens of farangland itself).

My mother is from a pretty wealthy Asian family (Yes, wealthy even by "western standards") and were invited to visit our French family friends in the south of France (and they were even some kind of nobility there, with a vineyard and the works) and despite this, the French embassy gave my sisters such a hard time, and they wanted not only an invitation letter from our French friends, but they also wanted a written letter from the freaking TOWN MAYOR that we would genuinely be staying with our French friends, and nowhere else. (Admittedly, it was just a small town, more like a village Mayor)

The consul advised us that it's better if we booked a hotel instead of accepted the hospitality invitation of our friends, because then the hotel could "guarantee" that we were there. But that if it wasn't a hotel, they'd need the signature of the TOWN MAYOR HIMSELF.

How crazy is that?

Can you imaging applying for a Thai visa in your home country, and then the Thai consul asking you for a letter from the Mayor of Bangkok (or even a small town you may be staying in)? That's ridiculous!

In the end, my sisters booked a hotel (and fully payed for it!) and then stayed with the family friends instead (and just explained the ridiculous thing to the hotel manager when they got there).

[Scott]

"...But criminal activity and anti-social behavior has nothing to do with one's immigration status! Even if you could prove that criminal activity is statistically higher among a certain group (Jews, blacks, disgusting poor people, 30 day visa runners, etc.) it doesn't follow that you solve the problem by banning or punishing and an entire group of people. While that might in fact be convenient and expedient, it is not considered a humane tool for modern governments who want to be a part of the international community."

Rexall: I think what you are missing here is that this is not our country and we are not accorded the same rights--the same as people from other countries aren't afforded these rights in our countries. No country has to allow in foreigners and nearly every country sets limits/standards and who they want in. If you are a citizen then your home country is obligated, by international treaties, to take you back, whether you are the dregs of society or not, but other countries to have to keep you.

The exception to this generalization is with political refugees and sometimes even they get sent back.

[billd766]

i certainly wasn't referring to you billd766 !

Taxexile

My apologies. I know that you were not referring to me but it had been a long day doing nothing and nearly an hour to read the post and I was tired and bored and I just HAD to answer somebody after readind the thread and you were the nearest.

I will try not to do it again.

(humble pie tastes horrible).

[rexall]

Rexall: I think what you are missing here is that this is not our country and we are not accorded the same rights--

No, after living here for nearly 10 years, I don't think I have missed that little factoid, Scott!

No country has to allow in foreigners and nearly every country sets limits/standards and who they want in.

I don't think anyone questions the right of a country to pass laws and make policy. And I don't think that even the most liberal voices here would suggest that Thailand (or any other country) shouldn't implement an orderly process to deal with comings and going of people. But bad policy is bad policy. Policy that causes more problems than it solves is bad policy. Policy that serves xenophobia is bad policy. Policy that is purely "political" is bad policy. Policy that cannot be enforced effectively and fairly is bad policy. As I mentioned in another post, I reckon that the 12 million "illegals" in the U.S. will probably be given some sort of residency, whether you call that amnesty, legalization, path to citizenship, or whatever. However, there are plenty in the U.S. that would love to send all of those 12 million punished and packing . . . but it's just not going to happen, whether anybody likes it or not and regardless of whether this population is accommodated or remains illegal.

Yes, Thailand can pass whatever laws it likes. And those who are adversely effected by such laws are free to discuss them intelligently. Criticize, complain, moan as some like to characterize it. That is until some guy with a gun says, "Shut up! Cannot talk about such things!" Hopefully, LOS is not there yet. Public discourse is good. Public debate is the first step to changing policy. Admittedly, no one should hold his breath on that score, but still public discourse is good.

Aloha,

Rex

[CRUNCHER]

Wrong Baboon. The policy was introduced by the elected goverment before it was removed.

CRUNCHER- The new policy as you correctly point out was indeed introduced by the previous administration. However if you read my post again, you will see I used the word IMPLEMEMTED by the present government. Not the same thing at all and I stand by what I said. You are quite right to pick me up on anything you dont agree with, however. TV would be pretty boring otherwise.

You have a point, but I love nit picking sometimes. I have just checked the OP. Seems like you and me are the only ones still talking about the new 90 days visa exempt entries. Some of the rest has gone over my head. I am a simple guy really.

[thaigene2]

Well we will see the impact. Check with Thai landlords as far as vacancy predictions, they should have a good feel now for how bad they will be hurting and how big the rallies will be in front of the Government house.

Come on...you must be joking. The only thing that may hurt Thailand (a bit) in all of this is the preception that it's 'becoming' anti-farang.

However, it does cause a major problem for mid-to-large Thai businesses that like to hire 'farang' or other Asian consultants for short term contracts (ie. 2 weeks to 2 months). Many of them lived here on tourist visas going from one contract to the next. They will become harder to find now locally - and the Thai companies aren't likely to want to pay for the costs of their travel and hotel etc if they need to recruit from KL or Singapore - (who are both happy to have them live there by the way).

That will cost Thai industry a bit - but there's no way anypone will be rallying for this cause in front of Government House...except maybe Mia Farangs once they realise their Tilac and meal-ticket has to leave the country for at least 3 months.

Like I said somewhere before, how about a Mia Farang Wok Banging demostration - they could bring all the little luuk-krungs along with photos of their daddies..that wouldn't be a bad demo, would it? Of course iut still wouldn't change things since the Mia Farangs are completely disenfranchised Isaan women with no political influence whatsoever.

[PhilHarries]

But I’ve given up. I bought a beautiful place in KL last week - stunning finishing quality. MM2H scheme: long visas, freehold ownership, fluent English, variety, culture, efficient banks, no tax on offshore income, import one car tax free, better food everywhere and cheaper with it. Sorry Thailand, there’s not enough here for me anymore.

You only alluded to the best bit. YOU bought the property in YOUR name 100% owned by YOU.

For fifteen years I've been working towards retiring to Thailand, I can more than qualify now but a few more years work will increase my quality of living by a nice margin, but I'm now looking around seriously at the options.

Let's face it, no matter what are, or are not, the rules now and how they are, or are not, interpreted or implemented it could all change next year or the year after or whenever another bunch of generals want to run their tanks out again. Or another half ar5ed bunch of clowns get themselves elected and hijack the country for their own ends. So you are constantly living on the edge wondering when the next sweeping reform of visa conditions will be launched or what the next immigration official's local interpretation of the existing rules will be.

Quite a few posts on this thread have talked about how the regulations can be circumvented in various ways. Don't lose sight of the fact that this thread, and many others, exist purely because the Thai authorites have decided to withdraw a circumvention route from the field of play. So whatever new method you come up with they may, at any time of their choosing, withdraw that option too.

[blackbelt54]

Once again wrong information if Immigration is to be believed. It is the number of days in Thailand that is to be counted - not the number of entries.

Am I right in thinking that this 3x30day rule has come into effect on OCT 1st and that ANY 30day entries PRIOR to that date are NULL & VOID?

[PhilHarries]

Some people will hate me for saying this, but actually I appreciate the ruling. It costs me a lot of stress and a total of over 100,000 Baht each year (including tax) to be here on a legal basis with non-b and work permit.

Why in he_ll should some bar owners be allowed to do more money and pay no tax? Oh, because they eat food and make those people gain money. Ridiculous.

I don't know what bar owners you've been talking to but most I know barely scratch a living. But I appreciate the point, it's always the same those that live by the rules and pay their dues subsidise those that don't.

[thaigene2]

But I’ve given up. I bought a beautiful place in KL last week - stunning finishing quality. MM2H scheme: long visas, freehold ownership, fluent English, variety, culture, efficient banks, no tax on offshore income, import one car tax free, better food everywhere and cheaper with it. Sorry Thailand, there’s not enough here for me anymore.

You only alluded to the best bit. YOU bought the property in YOUR name 100% owned by YOU.

For fifteen years I've been working towards retiring to Thailand, I can more than qualify now but a few more years work will increase my quality of living by a nice margin, but I'm now looking around seriously at the options.

Let's face it, no matter what are, or are not, the rules now and how they are, or are not, interpreted or implemented it could all change next year or the year after or whenever another bunch of generals want to run their tanks out again. Or another half ar5ed bunch of clowns get themselves elected and hijack the country for their own ends. So you are constantly living on the edge wondering when the next sweeping reform of visa conditions will be launched or what the next immigration official's local interpretation of the existing rules will be.

Quite a few posts on this thread have talked about how the regulations can be circumvented in various ways. Don't lose sight of the fact that this thread, and many others, exist purely because the Thai authorites have decided to withdraw a circumvention route from the field of play. So whatever new method you come up with they may, at any time of their choosing, withdraw that option too.

Agree with both of these views. But I wouldn't be so confident in KL either. You don't see an ethnic timebomb there? Show me a developing country where religious/ethnic groups have live side by side 'peacefully' and I'll show you a country where it is being done by heavy-handed rules to keep it that way (e.g. Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Indonesia, north-east africa, -- and don't forget Iraq -- or even Canada/Quebec for that matter!). It's never real 'harmony' it's almost always a forced marriage.. that one day can result in the wife with a pair of scissors out for revenge.

[thaihome]

But I’ve given up. I bought a beautiful place in KL last week - stunning finishing quality. MM2H scheme: long visas, freehold ownership, fluent English, variety, culture, efficient banks, no tax on offshore income, import one car tax free, better food everywhere and cheaper with it. Sorry Thailand, there’s not enough here for me anymore.

You only alluded to the best bit. YOU bought the property in YOUR name 100% owned by YOU.

For fifteen years I've been working towards retiring to Thailand, I can more than qualify now but a few more years work will increase my quality of living by a nice margin, but I'm now looking around seriously at the options.

Let's face it, no matter what are, or are not, the rules now and how they are, or are not, interpreted or implemented it could all change next year or the year after or whenever another bunch of generals want to run their tanks out again. Or another half ar5ed bunch of clowns get themselves elected and hijack the country for their own ends. So you are constantly living on the edge wondering when the next sweeping reform of visa conditions will be launched or what the next immigration official's local interpretation of the existing rules will be.

Quite a few posts on this thread have talked about how the regulations can be circumvented in various ways. Don't lose sight of the fact that this thread, and many others, exist purely because the Thai authorites have decided to withdraw a circumvention route from the field of play. So whatever new method you come up with they may, at any time of their choosing, withdraw that option too.

Agree with both of these views. But I wouldn't be so confident in KL either. You don't see an ethnic timebomb there? Show me a developing country where religious/ethnic groups have live side by side 'peacefully' and I'll show you a country where it is being done by heavy-handed rules to keep it that way (e.g. Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Indonesia, north-east africa, -- and don't forget Iraq -- or even Canada/Quebec for that matter!). It's never real 'harmony' it's almost always a forced marriage.. that one day can result in the wife with a pair of scissors out for revenge.

If some one wants to choose Malaysia over Thailand for a retirement home, that is up to them, but don't think you are not subject to capricious changes there as well. As stated above, Malaysia is a schizophrenic time bomb with a clock that is ticking louder and louder.

TH

[suiging]

We all worry about which way the Thai's will turn in the next few years as many on here prepare or settle in for retirement. When you get on a bit you do not need the stress of worry about your status etc etc. But hang on a sec, Nirvarna last time I checked was a defunked pop group, the land of milk and honey is still a dream and almost impossible to find. In the past similar worries have occuredin the LOS, but if you are over fifty, I honestly believe in time you will be seen as an asset as long as you have money to pump into the local coffers. As for Malaysia, please take the time to read what the youth arm of the ruling party think about non Malays and non-followers of the faith in general. The youth arm will evolve to be the movers and shakers, just as you settle down to your Pimms in the happy years of you dotage; they are a very angry group indeed.

[ovenman]

No that is not what I'm saying. Those 'tourists 'are the one who dont benefit the country by avoiding paying taxes or running a business or doing anything basically. How can tyhey be a benefit to the Thais?

Sorry, but you really lost me here. What do you think generally offers greater benefit to Thais on the whole: spending 500 baht having dinner at a local restaurant or putting 500 baht in the government coffers through income tax?

You really don't get the point. Your 500 Baht in the restaurant does not help anybody else than maybe the restauarant keeper who does not pay tax. Therefore it does not really affect Thai economy. Tell me you use motorcycle taxi's everyday, and it will again not affect Thai economy in any means.

If you honestly believe that then you have absolutely no concept whatsoever as to how an economy as a whole functions. Suggest that you also might want to brush up on macroeconomics by taking an Econ 101 course. Let me ask you a question (hopefully providing you with a nudge in the right direction): what do you suppose that restaurant owner does with the 500 baht from the dinner, even assuming that he's not paying one satang of tax to the government?

[rocky]

No that is not what I'm saying. Those 'tourists 'are the one who dont benefit the country by avoiding paying taxes or running a business or doing anything basically. How can tyhey be a benefit to the Thais?

Sorry, but you really lost me here. What do you think generally offers greater benefit to Thais on the whole: spending 500 baht having dinner at a local restaurant or putting 500 baht in the government coffers through income tax?

You really don't get the point. Your 500 Baht in the restaurant does not help anybody else than maybe the restauarant keeper who does not pay tax. Therefore it does not really affect Thai economy. Tell me you use motorcycle taxi's everyday, and it will again not affect Thai economy in any means.

If you honestly believe that then you have absolutely no concept whatsoever as to how an economy as a whole functions. Suggest that you also might want to brush up on macroeconomics by taking an Econ 101 course. Let me ask you a question (hopefully providing you with a nudge in the right direction): what do you suppose that restaurant owner does with the 500 baht from the dinner, even assuming that he's not paying one satang of tax to the government?

Of course he pays tax, we all do. 7% on all purchases. The man with the 500bht will spend it on products that would have been imported (charging import tax and 7% vat), made in Thailand (making jobs, income tax and 7% vat) or buying a bigger house car (tax growth)

I have read so many times peoples opinions on this site that do not see how money given to a bar girl or beer bar owner does not benefit Thailand.

The 500bht didn’t start its life as 500bht more likely 14$, 11.4 euros or 8 pounds sterling,

But then that would be too much for many people to comprehend.