Spreaders of Conspiracy Theories: Unmasking the Motivations Behind the Lies

[Dumbastheycome]

19 hours ago, AGLV0121 said:

 

What illegal?

1/ Jordan invaded the part that was 'granted' to Israel in 1948 pre-independence, and

2/  Jordan attacked Israel on June 5, 1967, Israel decided NOT to retaliate until Jordan bombed west Jerusalem. Just Google six day war.

And that's called a 'counter-attack' (unlike other countries seizing their southern neighbor in a 'greedy attack' for land), 

Apart  from the  reality  that  territory "granted" to a pseudo  Nation... Jordan is/was not a Palestinian acclaiment .

Go back and  find the concensus of  the  "United Nations" where and  which voting  members initiated the  scenario of  the  continuous debacle !

The whole  situation  is the  result of an erroneous solution  to a previous problem that has for centuries  and as  yet  never been resolved. What  has ensued is  the manipulation of an historic religious domination which is  now  contaminated by a  singular global political interest primarily.

It is a foot in  one door  and  and  a  bigger foot  in the other situation. But each  foot  belongs  to  another  so  the  walking  is   very  crooked !

 

[Dumbastheycome]

9 hours ago, Jingthing said:

They're not fooling anyone. 
Everyone knows that an Israel without a majority demographic of Jewish people would sooner or later (sooner) stop being Israel. That's the Israel demonization agenda in a nutshell. Never accepted the existence of Israel in the first place and continuing to work for it's destruction. 

What is that  based on? Race , ethnicity or  religion?

Edited March 20, 2017 by Dumbastheycome
A " Nationality" should be as belonging to as a right of birth or acceptance into. Race, ethnicity, religion should not be a defining factor in legitimate citizenshipi.

[Jingthing]

33 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

What is that  based on? Race or  religion?

Certainly not race but not only religion either. 

Jewish includes typical Jewish ethnicities (such as Mizrahi, Ashkenazi, Ethiopian) as well as the religion of Judaism. An ethnoreligious group. One doesn't have to be practicing the Jewish religion to be a Jew. The majority of Israeli (and American) Jews are secular to various degrees. 

That's why I tend to say JEWISH PEOPLE which includes all Jews from the most religiously observant to the least.  

It's interesting (and to me hateful) that often the Israel demonization agenda insists on pushing a big lie that Jewish is only a religion and to basically deny the reality of the existence of the Jewish PEOPLE. 

Jews throughout history have grown used to hostile people denying their existence in often very aggressive ways (oppression, economic restrictions, torture, forced conversion, expulsions, and genocide). The answer to all that was ISRAEL. 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Jingthing

[Dumbastheycome]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Certainly not race but not only religion either. 

Jewish includes typical Jewish ethnicities (such as Mizrahi, Ashkenazi, Ethiopian) as well as the religious. An ethnoreligious group. One doesn't have to be practicing the Jewish religion to be a Jew. The majority of Israeli (and American) Jews are secular to various degrees. 

That's why I tend to say JEWISH PEOPLE which includes all Jews from the most religiously observant to the least. 

 

But  does  not  include the  alternative religious to  be  Israeli .

[Dumbastheycome]

Just now, Dumbastheycome said:

But  does  not  include the  alternative religious to  be  Israeli .

Or  the  non  religious.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Dumbastheycome said:

But  does  not  include the  alternative religious to  be  Israeli .

What are you on about? Israel is a nation state. The Jewish people are the majority there. About twenty percent of Israeli citizens are not Jewish people (Christians and Muslims mostly) and they are also Israeli citizens with full religious freedoms. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Or  the  non  religious.

Again, what are you on about? 

As I already said the majority of Israel Jews are various levels of secular. 

There are internal political issues between religious and secular Jews within Israel which you can say about many other nations as well with other dominant religions.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Jingthing

[Dumbastheycome]

Just now, Jingthing said:

Again, what are you on about? 

I seriously suggest you review the portent  of  the  comment  I answered  to.

[Jingthing]

32 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

I seriously suggest you review the portent  of  the  comment  I answered  to.

It's hard to take you very seriously. 
I have a hard time taking the Israel demonization agenda seriously, that fails to recognize the very real and very justifiable reasons behind the creation of the state of Israel as far as being a homeland for the Jewish people, with a core value from the beginning to now being the right of return to all Jewish people to that state. That doesn't mean all or most Jews would want to do that or do do that, either drawn to the positives or chased out by Jew haters from their original countries. In a country like Ecuador, most Jews have gone to Israel. In the USA, the vast majority have not and probably will not though at this point in U.S. history I wouldn't make any long term predictions. 

To add, the vast majority of Israeli citizens today were BORN IN ISRAEL. Sabra-rific. 

There has been a recent spike in immigration from European nations like France and Ukraine but statistically not very significant compared to the total population. 

 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Jingthing

[Dumbastheycome]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It's hard to take you very seriously. 
I have a hard time taking the Israel demonization agenda seriously, that fails to recognize the very real and very justifiable reasons behind the creation of the state of Israel as far as being a homeland for the Jewish people, with a core value from the beginning to now being the right of return to all Jewish people to that state. That doesn't mean all or most Jews would want to do that or do do that, either drawn to the positives or chased out by Jew haters from their original countries. In a country like Ecuador, most Jews have gone to Israel. In the USA, the vast majority have not. 

Then I need  explain  my  view in non  antagonistic  detail.

The establishment  of the  defined  State of Israel was  enacted  as a  presumed solution to a  European issue that  did  not  start  with  Hitler. The perceived  problem  with  Jews  actually dates back  well before Hitler in European history. 

As people of  presumed racial origin  they  were politically persecuted for  vagarious  reason but in  essence because  they demonstrated the  commercial  savvy  to  accumulate  great wealth which  was kept  absent  from usual distribution in increased  retaliation  for  being  barred  from  owning land.

The  culmination of the persecution by  the Hitler regime which in reality overshadowed  the horror of other  persecution was the contrived and  inflicted Nation of  Israel.

The real and  urgent purpose was to offload massive  numbers of Jewish survivors to a location geographically appropriate other than those who  could  establish( monetary)  some  advantage  in  being  relocated elsewhere.

As  such it was  an initiative the European  domain welcomed but in objection to  others.

The reality is  that  despite  the   Nation  of  Israel  being  declared as  a  home  and  refuge  for  people of  Jewish  identity  it  is a territory  that was  defined  as  the   home  and  refuge  for all including the  already  present occupants. 

Attempts  at  incursion  into   such  an artificially declared  territory can be debated. But  incursion  into  territory other than  what was arbitrarily  accorded has  no  justification!

Israel is  a  recognized Nation.

Jewish is  a recognized religious  faith.

The  percentage  of  those  who legitimately occupy any   Nation who  subscribe  to  any  religion or  not at  all should  never  be  victim  to the  aspirations  of  the religion of  the  administration  of  that   Nation.

The  encroachment  Israel  has  enacted is  a wrongful  abuse in  any  view I  can  imagine because  it   goes  beyond  the  concept  of  defense.

But that that encroachment  has  been  fostered  by  its  foster and  objection  suppressed   in the  UN   is  no  real  surprise.

What  will  be  of  more  interest is in  when the  foster dies .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

A lot has happened since 1948.

I'm not agreeing with everything you wrote some of which is offensively misguided, particularly your extremely limited comprehension of the complexities of historical (and current) antisemitism, but I'm not going to bother with detail on your entire post. Black hole that. 

 

Israel is where it's at now and so are the Palestinian Arabs. Israeli Jews have a narrative and the Palestinian Arabs have a narrative. There is some truth in both narratives even though they are so wildly different. Thus this incredibly difficult and long conflict. The original 1948 borders are largely irrelevant as they were instantly made irrelevant when the Arab world attacked. But that doesn't mean there aren't good reasons for both sides to enter good faith peace negotiations for future borders. Not that they well, but I think both sides should. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Jingthing

[Dumbastheycome]

The  Arabs   Attacked...

Borders  are  now  irrelevant !

Limited comprehension?

Come  out   again  .

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Dumbastheycome said:

The  Arabs   Attacked...

Borders  are  now  irrelevant !

Limited comprehension?

Come  out   again  .

 

The Arabs did attack. Many different Arab nations. 

I said the 1948 borders were now irrelevant.

I never said borders in general are irrelevant.

Yes, your simplistic characterization of antisemitism betrays extremely limited knowledge on the subject. That's OK but suggest not acting like you know about stuff you actually don't know about. 

Come out again? Lost in translation.

If you insist on engaging with me, please do so in less abrasive ways. Otherwise, you're very welcome to not engage with me.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Jingthing

[AGLV0121]

3 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

which voting  members initiated the  scenario of  the  continuous debacle !

 

The SanRemo conference was very clear; I don;t see a 'debacle' in regard to this.

Britain knew well that Arabs would riot so they also wanted to appease them.

 

Pseudo nation as you define it has to fight for survival even when the foster dies (are you awaiting this with drooling lips?) or when the levy was dry (pun intended)

[bangkokbanjo]

She had 2 months left in her contract. Not so "brave"

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[notmyself]

Sucker for punishment me. People are getting sick and tired of the constant obstructionism delivered on a plate by the state of Israel. Say anything even remotely rational and boom... You get called an anti-Semite and any discourse is over. Settlements are illegal under international law but the state of Israel disputes this. Ask for this to be taken to arbitration and Boom again... accused of anti-Semitism. Bibi himself said just before the last election that he would never give the land back. Point this out and Boom anti-Semitism

 

What you have effectively is someone occupying your lounge whilst demanding that any negotiations do not include them leaving the lounge. Get the [word] out of my lounge because it is my [word]  lounge and perhaps you can build a house on my land. It's all about conceived ownership and therein and thereof. Everything else is just window dressing.

 

The state of Israel: Bunch of children.

 

 

[Morch]

6 hours ago, notmyself said:

Sucker for punishment me. People are getting sick and tired of the constant obstructionism delivered on a plate by the state of Israel. Say anything even remotely rational and boom... You get called an anti-Semite and any discourse is over. Settlements are illegal under international law but the state of Israel disputes this. Ask for this to be taken to arbitration and Boom again... accused of anti-Semitism. Bibi himself said just before the last election that he would never give the land back. Point this out and Boom anti-Semitism

 

What you have effectively is someone occupying your lounge whilst demanding that any negotiations do not include them leaving the lounge. Get the [word] out of my lounge because it is my [word]  lounge and perhaps you can build a house on my land. It's all about conceived ownership and therein and thereof. Everything else is just window dressing.

 

The state of Israel: Bunch of children.

 

 

 

Say anything even remotely rational and boom... You get called an anti-Semite and any discourse is over.

 

That is not true. And what's worse, you acknowledged it as untrue on previous topics, yet bring it up again. Were you accused of antisemitism on this topic? Or with regard to criticism of the Israeli government's policies in the West Bank? Did someone raise an antisemitism claim as response to the Netanyahu quote mentioned?

 

[Scott]

A post with a questionable link has been removed. 

[andersonat]

There are Posters here who know a great deal more about the situation between Israel and the Arab States than I do, and I know that I cannot compete with their knowledge/information. 

 

 

But I have a question for the "supporters" of Israel   -  are you saying that there are *no* laws/regulations/procedures in Israel that discriminate against the non-Jews who live in the country, ie that there is *no* "apartheid" in the country  ? 

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, andersonat said:

There are Posters here who know a great deal more about the situation between Israel and the Arab States than I do, and I know that I cannot compete with their knowledge/information. 

 

 

But I have a question for the "supporters" of Israel   -  are you saying that there are *no* laws/regulations/procedures in Israel that discriminate against the non-Jews who live in the country, ie that there is *no* "apartheid" in the country  ? 

So you're saying anywhere in the world where there isn't perfect equality under the law that constitutes apartheid? 

[andersonat]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

So you're saying anywhere in the world where there isn't perfect equality under the law that constitutes apartheid? 

 

No, I'm asking a question.

 

Please answer it, if you can. 

 

 

 - Or is that your answer ?

 

Edited March 21, 2017 by andersonat

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, andersonat said:

 

No, I'm asking a question.

 

Please answer it, if you can. 

 

 

The question is horribly sloppy. 

You use apartheid incorrectly to start.

By your bizarre implication, a gay American in Alabama living in a state without legal protection against discrimination for being gay would be living under apartheid. 

Secondly, you need to be clear about whether you're talking about Israeli citizens vs. non-Israeli citizens.

If you do manage to ask a less sloppy question, there are probably people here that can address it with varying narratives. I'm trying to help you ask a question that is even worth answering by anybody. 

Edited March 21, 2017 by Jingthing

[Thorgal]

There are Posters here who know a great deal more about the situation between Israel and the Arab States than I do, and I know that I cannot compete with their knowledge/information.   

 

But I have a question for the "supporters" of Israel   -  are you saying that there are *no* laws/regulations/procedures in Israel that discriminate against the non-Jews who live in the country, ie that there is *no* "apartheid" in the country  ? 

 

 

I'm not a 'supporter', but Israeli apartheid legislation applicable on Palestinians, with or without Israeli citizenship. :

 

- Israeli Civil law, with special restrictions, for Palestinians who live as citizens of Israel.

 

- Permanent residency law applicable to Palestinians living in the city of Jerusalem.

 

- Military law applicable to Palestinians, including those in refugee camps, who are living since 1967 under conditions of belligerent occupation in the West Bank and Gaza.

 

- Policy to prohibit the return of Palestinians, whether refugees or exiles, living outside territory under Israel’s control.

 

- Annexation of Syrian territory and segregation of Druze population with prohibition of free movement.

 

So yes, there's 'apartheid' in Israel and Palestine enforced by Israeli legislation since the beginning.

 

 

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[dexterm]

10 hours ago, andersonat said:

 

No, I'm asking a question.

 

Please answer it, if you can. 

 

 

 - Or is that your answer ?

 

As the report pointed out, Zionists divide Palestinians into 4 separate groups for different forms of demographic engineering in order to maintain dominance with an artificial Jewish majority.

 

Zionist apologists do the same when they are deflecting criticism. If you want to discuss oppression in the West Bank, they will start talking about Hamas in Gaza, or Palestinian citizens in Israel.

 

There is a parallel topic to this in another thread which deals more specifically and more on topic with the nuts and bolts of Israeli apartheid, that will answer your original question.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/973833-israel-imposes-apartheid-regime-on-palestinians-un-report/?do=findComment&comment=11731404

Edited March 22, 2017 by dexterm

[andersonat]

20 minutes ago, dexterm said:

There is a parallel topic to this in another thread which deals more specifically and more on topic with the nuts and bolts of Israeli apartheid, that will answer your original question.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/973833-israel-imposes-apartheid-regime-on-palestinians-un-report/?do=findComment&comment=11731404

 

Thanks for the link/info.

[dexterm]

Rima Khalaf, the lady who was forced to resign rather than sweep the truth under the carpet, is sincere about her principles, and certainly must have pricked the conscience of the UN Sec Gen in her letter of resignation...

UN bowed to ‘fearmongering and threats’ from powerful governments to cover up ‘painful truth’ of Israeli apartheid — UN official’s resignation letter

"For I believe—as you do—in the values and noble principles that have always represented the forces of good throughout history, and upon which our organization, the United Nations, was founded. And, like you, I also believe that discrimination against any human being on the basis of religion or skin color or gender or ethnicity is absolutely unacceptable, and cannot be made acceptable by political maneuvering or brute force. And I believe that to speak truth to power is not only a human right, it is our obligation."

http://mondoweiss.net/2017/03/fearmongering-governments-resignation/#sthash.GBXzHzn1.dpuf

 

She goes on to point out how twice in the last 2 months she has been instructed to withdraw the report not because of its content or that the UNSC disagreed, but because of political pressure from countries mentioned in the report...i.e. Israel.

 

Well done, madam.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

As the report pointed out, Zionists divide Palestinians into 4 separate groups for different forms of demographic engineering in order to maintain dominance with an artificial Jewish majority.

 

Zionist apologists do the same when they are deflecting criticism. If you want to discuss oppression in the West Bank, they will start talking about Hamas in Gaza, or Palestinian citizens in Israel.

 

There is a parallel topic to this in another thread which deals more specifically and more on topic with the nuts and bolts of Israeli apartheid, that will answer your original question.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/973833-israel-imposes-apartheid-regime-on-palestinians-un-report/?do=findComment&comment=11731404

 

The "report" is neither universally accepted, nor are the inherent bias of the commissioning body and authors methodically ignored as is practiced in your posts. Most people with access to calendars and mediocre knowledge of UN schedule would not be surprised about the timing of its publication.

 

And as per script, the usual denigration of anyone not subscribing to your views as an "apologist" and whatnot, to be then followed by a whiny account of the supposed one-sided nastiness you endure on this forum.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

Rima Khalaf, the lady who was forced to resign rather than sweep the truth under the carpet, is sincere about her principles, and certainly must have pricked the conscience of the UN Sec Gen in her letter of resignation...

UN bowed to ‘fearmongering and threats’ from powerful governments to cover up ‘painful truth’ of Israeli apartheid — UN official’s resignation letter

"For I believe—as you do—in the values and noble principles that have always represented the forces of good throughout history, and upon which our organization, the United Nations, was founded. And, like you, I also believe that discrimination against any human being on the basis of religion or skin color or gender or ethnicity is absolutely unacceptable, and cannot be made acceptable by political maneuvering or brute force. And I believe that to speak truth to power is not only a human right, it is our obligation."

http://mondoweiss.net/2017/03/fearmongering-governments-resignation/#sthash.GBXzHzn1.dpuf

 

She goes on to point out how twice in the last 2 months she has been instructed to withdraw the report not because of its content or that the UNSC disagreed, but because of political pressure from countries mentioned in the report...i.e. Israel.

 

Well done, madam.

 

And, of course, her words should be taken for granted, seeing as she is expressing a point of view which you support.

 

The reference to alleged pressure is especially disingenuous. The phrase used was "..states, which are run today by governments with little concern for international principal and human rights...".  Considering ESCWA's membership (Bahrain, Egypt,  Iraq,  Jordan,  Kuwait,  Lebanon,  Libya,  Mauritania,  Morocco,  Oman,  Palestine,  Qatar,  Saudi Arabia.  Sudan,  Syria,  Tunisia,  United Arab Emirates and  Yemen) and these countries own record on such issues - those living in glass houses and all that.

 

Khalaf doesn't seem to have any problems with political pressure when this is applied the other way around, in various UN bodies and organizations. For example, a regional one like the one she headed, and which refused to accept Israel as a member....

 

 

[Thorgal]

 

And, of course, her words should be taken for granted, seeing as she is expressing a point of view which you support.

 

The reference to alleged pressure is especially disingenuous. The phrase used was "..states, which are run today by governments with little concern for international principal and human rights...".  Considering ESCWA's membership (Bahrain, Egypt,  Iraq,  Jordan,  Kuwait,  Lebanon,  Libya,  Mauritania,  Morocco,  Oman,  Palestine,  Qatar,  Saudi Arabia.  Sudan,  Syria,  Tunisia,  United Arab Emirates and  Yemen) and these countries own record on such issues - those living in glass houses and all that.

 

Khalaf doesn't seem to have any problems with political pressure when this is applied the other way around, in various UN bodies and organizations. For example, a regional one like the one she headed, and which refused to accept Israel as a member....

 

 

 

Illegal annexation of territory of co-member states of ESCWA is not really encouraging to promote economic and social progress.

 

Israel is not even a member from ECOSOC, the main UN body of ESCWA.

 

The Zionist project is a European project. Israeli affiliation to EU is more realistic, but here again a parallel, but separate entity has been created under the EJP (European Jewish Parliament).

 

For sure, claiming non-membership by 'own' refusal is just another marketing strategy...

 

 

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[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Illegal annexation of territory of co-member states of ESCWA is not really encouraging to promote economic and social progress.

Israel is not even a member from ECOSOC, the main UN body of ESCWA.

The Zionist project is a European project. Israeli affiliation to EU is more realistic, but here again a parallel, but separate entity has been created under the EJP (European Jewish Parliament).

For sure, claiming non-membership by refusal is just another marketing strategy...


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Mumbo Jumbo ftw.

 

ECOSOC is a council of 54 UN member countries, chosen according to UN regional groups, out of 193 UN member countries. I'm sure that that you thought you meant something by the above remark. It may be worthwhile to point out that Arab countries have blocked Israel's inclusion in its UN regional group. And no, ECOSOC is no a "UN body of ESCWA". 

 

The rest of your drivel is again going off on tangent.