U.S. lawmakers say no proof of claims Trump Tower bugged

[bushdoctor]

2 hours ago, Andaman Al said:

You think that means Obama knew about it? The tools to surveil everyone in the USA at will came in to being when George W Bush rammed home the 'Patriot Act'' Do you think Presidents really know what the intelligence agencies get up to? If so then you must believe that respective Presidents knew about all the black flag operations that the US have been involved in to start various conflicts around the world. The Presidents have no idea what goes on in those dark corridors of the most secret halls of Government. It is that that gives them plausible deniability.

There are regular intelligence briefings. Do you honestly think the president doesn't know what's going on? 

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, bushdoctor said:

Don't you mean thats your strong opinion? If you have real evidence to back your claim, please cite your source.

No, it's incumbent upon the person who made the original claim, in this case, Trump, to provide evidence. Maybe you subscribe to Donald Rumsfeld's doctrine: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 

That turned out brilliantly.

[bushdoctor]

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

No, it's incumbent upon the person who made the original claim, in this case, Trump, to provide evidence. Maybe you subscribe to Donald Rumsfeld's doctrine: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 

That turned out brilliantly.

There is an ongoing investigation. Until it's outcome you are giving unsubstantiated opinion. 

[craigt3365]

4 minutes ago, bushdoctor said:

Don't you mean thats your strong opinion? If you have real evidence to back your claim, please cite your source.

Ummm...isn't that the topic of this thread?  NO proof of wire tapping claims? LOL  Not my opinion.  Just repeating what US lawmakers have said.  Who probably have more info about this than either you or I. LOL

[craigt3365]

2 minutes ago, bushdoctor said:

There are regular intelligence briefings. Do you honestly think the president doesn't know what's going on? 

You don't remember him saying he didn't like intelligence briefings?  And didn't attend them?  Said he knows more than they do anyway. LOL

 

I'm surprised you missed that.

[impulse]

4 hours ago, bushdoctor said:

Every American has been spied on under Obamas watch. Phones, computers, conversations. This is nothing new but very disturbing. Why not Trump as well? Of course it will be denied. Edward Snowden revealed a similar story years ago. 

 

Not only will it be denied, anyone who did come forward with evidence would be under threat of prosecution for leaking national security secrets.  Kind of convenient for those in power...

 

As I see it, Trump's claim is that communications from Trump Tower were being listened in on by the government under Obama's watch.  Given the revelations from that other guy who's on the run for providing evidence of malfeasance on the part of the government, it's tough for me to believe Trump Tower was unique and that it wasn't listened in on.

 

I'm no Trump fan, but in this one, he's got the resources and the position to question the erosion of every American's privacy rights through intrusive government surveillance.  And I wish him well in this pursuit.  Not that I believe his motives are altruistic (or patriotic) at all.

[xylophone]

Just now, bushdoctor said:

Do you honestly think the president doesn't know what's going on? 

Ah, you've finally caught on.......he doesn't!

[craigt3365]

2 minutes ago, bushdoctor said:

There is an ongoing investigation. Until it's outcome you are giving unsubstantiated opinion. 

Please read the OP.  Here's what it says:

 

Quote

Representative Adam Schiff, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee holding the hearing, called Trump's claims "patently false" and said he expected Comey to say as much on Monday.

 

[craigt3365]

1 minute ago, impulse said:

 

Not only will it be denied, anyone who did come forward with evidence would be under threat of prosecution for leaking national security secrets.  Kind of convenient for those in power...

 

As I see it, Trump's claim is that communications from Trump Tower were being listened in on by the government under Obama's watch.  Given the revelations from that other guy who's on the run for providing evidence of malfeasance on the part of the government, it's tough for me to believe Trump Tower was unique and that it wasn't listened in on.

 

I'm no Trump fan, but in this one, he's got the resources and the position to question the erosion of every American's privacy rights through intrusive government surveillance.  And I wish him well in this pursuit.  Not that I believe his motives are altruistic (or patriotic) at all.

Zero proof of any wire tap.  Saying anything else is just a conspiracy theory.  And unsubstantiated. 

[impulse]

Just now, craigt3365 said:

Zero proof of any wire tap.  Saying anything else is just a conspiracy theory.  And unsubstantiated. 

 

So, you're claiming that nobody in government is listening in on communications from that building?    Why would it be unique?

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

So, you're claiming that nobody in government is listening in on communications from that building?    Why would it be unique?

He's claiming that there is no evidence that Barack Obama ordered Donald Trump's phone lines to be wiretapped or put under any form of state sponsored surveillance.

Stop trying to change the issue. This is about Trump's accusation.

[Andaman Al]

4 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

He's claiming that there is no evidence that Barack Obama ordered Donald Trump's phone lines to be wiretapped or put under any form of state sponsored surveillance.

Stop trying to change the issue. This is about Trump's accusation.

And that is the crux of this matter. Trump owes Obama a full and unreserved apology. He accused the former President of crimes that are a felony. He stated that he was a 'bad and sick guy', all without any evidence. Both Republican and Democrat Senior members of the Intel committees have totally refuted his claims. Simple.

 

This is nothing to do with the NSA's policy of harvesting info on anyone and everyone (under the laws of the patriot act). This is nothing to do with the LEGAL surveillance on senior Russian Diplomats, during which, if Flynn is stupid enough to talk with the guy then he is going to be listened to as well. (and I bet a dollar to a pound of rocking horse poop that Flynn will be charged with felony crimes in the near future). We are focused on the 'leakers' being guilty of a crime and not the crimes in the conversations they leaked. Funny how Trump had no interest in pursuing the 'leakers' who shared Clintons email data, they just wanted the info. Now the tables are turned we have to operate to a different standard.

 

Trump WRONGLY accused Obama of having HIM tapped in Trump towers, and now he is back peddling like crazy. I hope the media will not let this stop until he apologises.

[joecoolfrog]

54 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Possibly true- maybe they did it wireless. 

 

I've been tapped, you've been tapped, every American with a phone or computer has been tapped.  Under Obama's watch.  

 

To claim that Trump hasn't been tapped is beyond credibility.  Maybe he wasn't singled out for it.  But he was listened in on.  We all were.

Maybe so , but that is not what Trump was infering .

[craigt3365]

31 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

So, you're claiming that nobody in government is listening in on communications from that building?    Why would it be unique?

No. I'm saying Trump lied. Obama did not order a wire tap on him in Trump Towers.

[mrfill]

"I don't know the basis for President Trump's assertion," U.S. Senator Susan Collins, a Republican, said on NBC's "Meet the Press." "I do believe he owes us that explanation."

 

Is it because he likes inventing stories to deflect interest away from some very nasty truths?

[bushdoctor]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

Ummm...isn't that the topic of this thread?  NO proof of wire tapping claims? LOL  Not my opinion.  Just repeating what US lawmakers have said.  Who probably have more info about this than either you or I. LOL

The article isn't proof of anything, if it was the why have an investigation? It's just political posturing, and we will see that from both sides. 

[impulse]

20 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

No. I'm saying Trump lied. Obama did not order a wire tap on him in Trump Towers.

 

Why would Obama order a wiretap?  They're already listening in on everyone.  He'd just have to ask them to pay more attention to one than the others.  

 

There's a thousand ways to parse this thing so even if it did happen, they can deny it.  For example, they don't wiretap the Trump Tower.  They wiretap the AT&T junction box down the street.  And they don't even use wires much any more.

 

See how that works?  Say the right words, avoid others- and you can deny anything with a straight face.

 

Even Nunes says that Trump' tweets are incorrect taken literally, but he's interested in where the investigation takes them.   And they haven't gotten all the evidence  from the CIA, the NSA, or even the FBI yet.  That's expected this week.

 

And regardless of what the evidence says, I'm a big fan of putting these agencies on notice that their actions (even those sanctioned by politicians) are subject to legal scrutiny.

Like I said, not a fan of Trump.  Personally, I think he shot from the hip on this one and hit himself in the foot.  But I like to see them a little uncomfortable about taking away our privacy rights.

Edited March 20, 2017 by impulse

[bushdoctor]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

You don't remember him saying he didn't like intelligence briefings?  And didn't attend them?  Said he knows more than they do anyway. LOL

 

I'm surprised you missed that.

We were talking about Obama. 

 

Trump dudnt like DAILY intelligence briefings. 

[bushdoctor]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

Ah, you've finally caught on.......he doesn't!

I was referring to Obama if and when the Trump tower was spied on. 

[bushdoctor]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

Please read the OP.  Here's what it says:

 

 

Great expectations. Let's see what is uncovered, the investigation has barely begun. 

[craigt3365]

25 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Why would Obama order a wiretap?  They're already listening in on everyone.  He'd just have to ask them to pay more attention to one than the others.  

 

There's a thousand ways to parse this thing so even if it did happen, they can deny it.  For example, they don't wiretap the Trump Tower.  They wiretap the AT&T junction box down the street.  And they don't even use wires much any more.

 

See how that works?  Say the right words, avoid others- and you can deny anything with a straight face.

 

Even Nunes says that Trump' tweets are incorrect taken literally, but he's interested in where the investigation takes them.   And they haven't gotten all the evidence  from the CIA, the NSA, or even the FBI yet.  That's expected this week.

 

And regardless of what the evidence says, I'm a big fan of putting these agencies on notice that their actions (even those sanctioned by politicians) are subject to legal scrutiny.

Like I said, not a fan of Trump.  Personally, I think he shot from the hip on this one and hit himself in the foot.  But I like to see them a little uncomfortable about taking away our privacy rights.

But this is off topic. Let's get back to OP.

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

 

 

 

As I see it, Trump's claim is that communications from Trump Tower were being listened in on by the government under Obama's watch.  Given the revelations from that other guy who's on the run for providing evidence of malfeasance on the part of the government, it's tough for me to believe Trump Tower was unique and that it wasn't listened in on.

 

 

That may be as you see it, but it's not as Trump said it. Let me refresh your memory. Here's the text from 4 Trump tweets:

“Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my “wires tapped” in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism.

“How low has President Obama gone to tapp (sic) my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy.”

I’d bet a good lawyer could make a great case out of the fact that President Obama was tapping my phones in October, just prior to Election!“

Is it legal for a sitting President to be “wire tapping” a race for president prior to an election? Turned down by court earlier. A NEW LOW!”

 

“

 

[craigt3365]

24 minutes ago, bushdoctor said:

Great expectations. Let's see what is uncovered, the investigation has barely begun. 

Please show a link to a credible article that says the investigation has barely begun. 

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

 

Not only will it be denied, anyone who did come forward with evidence would be under threat of prosecution for leaking national security secrets.  Kind of convenient for those in power...

 

Of course the President could pardon anyone who came forward with such evidence. If only Trump were the President...

 

[impulse]

8 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Of course the President could pardon anyone who came forward with such evidence. If only Trump were the President...

 

I certainly wouldn't bet my career and 20 years of my freedom on such a promise.  If he actually made such a promise.  Which I don't recall reading about.

 

Ya got a link to that one?

[bushdoctor]

 

[ilostmypassword]

23 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Of course the President could pardon anyone who came forward with such evidence. If only Trump were the President...

 

13 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

I certainly wouldn't bet my career and 20 years of my freedom on such a promise.  If he actually made such a promise.  Which I don't recall reading about.

 

Ya got a link to that one?

I never said Trump did promise. What I did write was that a President could pardon anyone who came forward with such evidence. But I do agree with your point about not trusting Trump's promises. Given his track record in business alone, who would?

 

[impulse]

4 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

I never said Trump did promise. What I did write was that a President could pardon anyone who came forward with such evidence. But I do agree with your point about not trusting Trump's promises. Given his track record in business alone, who would?

 

And there's the rub.  The OP is about lack of evidence that Trump's claims are valid.  There's a thousand ways such evidence can be hidden, tainted or spun.

 

Lack of evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen.  We won't know in our lifetimes what really went on.  Unless an Ellsberg, a Snowden or an Assange risk their very freedom to expose the truth.

 

Getting literal to the point of anal retentive, did Obama wiretap Trump Tower, or even specifically order someone to wiretap Trump Tower just before the election?  Probably not.  But is that the real question?  Only if this is a Trump bash.  (Which I could get behind on most other topics- just not the erosion of our privacy rights)

 

[darksidedog]

4 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

It's been proven there was no wiretap. Trump owes an apology to Obama. Along with many others.

Ah! But this is a man who does not know how to back down, or the word "sorry."

If anything at all, we will get a " I was just quoting something I heard on FOX. You should be talking to them. I deny everything. And GCHQ? Is that a brand of runners?"

[darksidedog]

32 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

And there's the rub.  The OP is about lack of evidence that Trump's claims are valid.  There's a thousand ways such evidence can be hidden, tainted or spun.

 

Lack of evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen.  We won't know in our lifetimes what really went on.  Unless an Ellsberg, a Snowden or an Assange risk their very freedom to expose the truth.

 

Getting literal to the point of anal retentive, did Obama wiretap Trump Tower, or even specifically order someone to wiretap Trump Tower just before the election?  Probably not.  But is that the real question?  Only if this is a Trump bash.  (Which I could get behind on most other topics- just not the erosion of our privacy rights)

 

I believe in this instance it isn't a lack of evidence that appears to the problem.

It's more the fact that there is absolutely nothing, from anywhere, that gives it any credence whatsoever, apart from the ramblings of some conspiracy theory whackos, who would like to dream up any dirt they can, in a sad attempt to give their life some meaning. Time to move on folks.