British PM May to fire starting gun on Brexit

[Notadoctor]

" free of Brussels" - is one of those truly meaningless catch phrase that Brexiteers repeat........in all the time since before the referendum, I haven't heard one single good thing that could plausibly come from brexit as the whole campaign is based upon false premises and lies.

 

We live in an era where truth is irrelevant ..just soundbites and lies - even spin is dead 9that was based on manipulation of facts0 now there is apparently no need of facts - you can say the world is flat, make false claims about other countries or promise money for healthcare that doesn't exist whatever - if you are proved wrong, it doesn't matter as there appears to be no comeback on lies at present.

 

the problem with this is that the more  lies are institutionalised, the more democracy dies......once leaders and governments feel they don't need the truth, then as a democracy we are fecked - as the Irish might say.

[mogandave]

" free of Brussels" - is one of those truly meaningless catch phrase that Brexiteers repeat........in all the time since before the referendum, I haven't heard one single good thing that could plausibly come from brexit as the whole campaign is based upon false premises and lies.
 
We live in an era where truth is irrelevant ..just soundbites and lies - even spin is dead 9that was based on manipulation of facts0 now there is apparently no need of facts - you can say the world is flat, make false claims about other countries or promise money for healthcare that doesn't exist whatever - if you are proved wrong, it doesn't matter as there appears to be no comeback on lies at present.
 
the problem with this is that the more  lies are institutionalised, the more democracy dies......once leaders and governments feel they don't need the truth, then as a democracy we are fecked - as the Irish might say.

As opposed to feckless?

[mariner16]

Interesting article in the Times if you can access it. Thought this analogy was spot on.

 

"One thing is clear when you look at the ups and downs of our historic relationship with Brussels: billing Article 50 as the start of divorce proceedings misses the point. We were never in a marriage: no passion, no offspring. It was more like a flat-share where we squabbled about the bills, about the pilfering from the fridge and about the uninvited guests sleeping on the sofa."

 

"Last weekend, celebrating the 60th anniversary of the treaty, EU members committed themselves to the European idea — and pointedly excluded Britain. It was an exquisite historic irony. As Britain tried to sign up to the EEC, it repeatedly found itself rebuffed, above all by the French president Charles de Gaulle. The reasons for the Non! were manifold: EEC concern that Britain would turn their community into an elaborate free trade zone, expand its realm to include Commonwealth partners, make English the main language. Chiefly, though, De Gaulle smelled British desperation; it had nowhere else to go and the EEC could play for time."

 

 

Precisely, sums it up perfectly, at the end of the day UK has been nothing but a wrecker in EEC/EU attempting to subvert the whole project at every turn, particularly when a Tory government has been in power. The wonder is that they didn't have an article 50 equivalent to expel an unwanted member, because make no mistake there is as big a feeling on continental Europe wanting UK stripped of opt outs to the euro and schengen etc. and ejected if they wouldn't become full and committed members, irony is that UK has done it for them.

 

Back in 1973 it was as much about not becoming the 51st state of USA as it was about becoming part of the European project, now UK really will become the USA's poodle to be led around on a leash and do what we are told.

[Laughing Gravy]

27 minutes ago, mariner16 said:

Interesting article in the Times if you can access it. Thought this analogy was spot on.

 

"One thing is clear when you look at the ups and downs of our historic relationship with Brussels: billing Article 50 as the start of divorce proceedings misses the point. We were never in a marriage: no passion, no offspring. It was more like a flat-share where we squabbled about the bills, about the pilfering from the fridge and about the uninvited guests sleeping on the sofa."

 

"Last weekend, celebrating the 60th anniversary of the treaty, EU members committed themselves to the European idea — and pointedly excluded Britain. It was an exquisite historic irony. As Britain tried to sign up to the EEC, it repeatedly found itself rebuffed, above all by the French president Charles de Gaulle. The reasons for the Non! were manifold: EEC concern that Britain would turn their community into an elaborate free trade zone, expand its realm to include Commonwealth partners, make English the main language. Chiefly, though, De Gaulle smelled British desperation; it had nowhere else to go and the EEC could play for time."

 

 

Precisely, sums it up perfectly, at the end of the day UK has been nothing but a wrecker in EEC/EU attempting to subvert the whole project at every turn, particularly when a Tory government has been in power. The wonder is that they didn't have an article 50 equivalent to expel an unwanted member, because make no mistake there is as big a feeling on continental Europe wanting UK stripped of opt outs to the euro and schengen etc. and ejected if they wouldn't become full and committed members, irony is that UK has done it for them.

 

Back in 1973 it was as much about not becoming the 51st state of USA as it was about becoming part of the European project, now UK really will become the USA's poodle to be led around on a leash and do what we are told.

Really! I don't see the USA telling us (the UK) we have to have this legislation and we have to pay up billions to them. Or they don't say we can't trade we other non EU countries and if we do we will penalize you. Now if that is being led on a leash the EU must have been like been put in a straight jacket and wheeled around.

[mariner16]

41 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Really! I don't see the USA telling us (the UK) we have to have this legislation and we have to pay up billions to them. Or they don't say we can't trade we other non EU countries and if we do we will penalize you. Now if that is being led on a leash the EU must have been like been put in a straight jacket and wheeled around.

But if we want to increase trade with USA the payback will be giving US Health Insurers access to the NHS. If we want US companies building factories etc. in UK the payback will be loss of workers rights and benefits to "fit in" with the US idea of how a society should work. I am afraid that is not the kind of society I want to live in, and neither do most Europeans which is one of the reasons they pursued the European project in the first place, as a way of gaining critical mass against the overbearing USA exporting their brand of capitalism around the world.

[Laughing Gravy]

33 minutes ago, mariner16 said:

But if we want to increase trade with USA the payback will be giving US Health Insurers access to the NHS. If we want US companies building factories etc. in UK the payback will be loss of workers rights and benefits to "fit in" with the US idea of how a society should work. I am afraid that is not the kind of society I want to live in, and neither do most Europeans which is one of the reasons they pursued the European project in the first place, as a way of gaining critical mass against the overbearing USA exporting their brand of capitalism around the world.

But the UK will not just be trading with the USA. It has the commonwealth and other countries that will not have the EU constraints put upon them that we currently have trading. I know if zero hour contracts go family and friends in the UK will be happy.

[Humberstone]

37 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

But the UK will not just be trading with the USA. It has the commonwealth and other countries that will not have the EU constraints put upon them that we currently have trading. I know if zero hour contracts go family and friends in the UK will be happy.

How do you know that the commonwealth will not have similar constraints as the EU ?? Just because they speak English and were former colonies doesn't mean they're going to kowtow to the UK. There is still some lingering animus after way OZ and NZ were treated by the UK when they joined the then Common Market in the 70's.  

[Notadoctor]

42 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

But the UK will not just be trading with the USA. It has the commonwealth and other countries that will not have the EU constraints put upon them that we currently have trading. I know if zero hour contracts go family and friends in the UK will be happy.

We will not be trading any extra with either US or the old "colonies" - that is just ridiculous schoolboy stuff.

[Notadoctor]

Sums it up very well.....her place in history is guaranteed - but I don't think she'll like it.......

"Theresa May said she enacted the ‘democratic decision of the people of the United Kingdom’. She has done no such thing. She has hijacked that decision to feed the anti-European prejudices of her own political party"

Paddy Ashdown

[Notadoctor]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Really! I don't see the USA telling us (the UK) we have to have this legislation and we have to pay up billions to them. Or they don't say we can't trade we other non EU countries and if we do we will penalize you. Now if that is being led on a leash the EU must have been like been put in a straight jacket and wheeled around.

If thw US wants to buy ANYTHING from us - and thet is pretty unlikely, they will like all trading nations specify the parameters of any product they buy. the US just like the EU has regulations that govern the specifications of anything they import - if we don't comply they won't buy.....but at least in the EU we had a say in what those parameters were.

[evadgib]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/david-davis-commons-statement-on-the-great-repeal-bill-white-paper

[Aforek]

I have read today that if there is no agreement in two years, then England is over

[evadgib]

On par with...