Merkel says migrants must respect tolerance, German laws

[cooked]

3 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

Actually I don't think it's OK. The use of the year 2050 is a fabricated figure used by the 'right of centre' and proven nonsense by the likes of Pew Research and  a number of other sources.

 

 

You're in a bad way. It isn't a fabricated figure, it is a demographic fact. If it isn't, please give me a link to disprove it. Pew research must be the most respected organisation of its kind, maybe they were wrong? Their predictions were made before the current immigration surge.  I have an open mind you see.

So let's just say before the end of this century, so that's alright then. Politicians don't think much further than the next elections.

 

[simple1]

26 minutes ago, cooked said:

You're in a bad way. It isn't a fabricated figure, it is a demographic fact. If it isn't, please give me a link to disprove it. Pew research must be the most respected organisation of its kind, maybe they were wrong? Their predictions were made before the current immigration surge.  I have an open mind you see.

So let's just say before the end of this century, so that's alright then. Politicians don't think much further than the next elections.

 

Oh well don't stand by your claims, no matter as  you obviously cannot factually prove them. No more of this silliness - time to move along.

Edited April 4, 2017 by simple1

[cooked]

8 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Oh well don't stand by your claims, no matter as  you obviously cannot factually prove them. No more of this silliness - time to move along.

As usual, no counter argument coming up in this kind of "discussion". At least you avoided insults.

[i claudius]

14 hours ago, 55Jay said:

Like the British/Euros do in various countries they invade for holidays.  Pattaya.  Fish and chips anyone? 

What a stupid comparison , wherever large numbers of people go on holiday ,there will always be someone to make money out of what they like , its called business .

[55Jay]

39 minutes ago, i claudius said:

What a stupid comparison , wherever large numbers of people go on holiday ,there will always be someone to make money out of what they like , its called business .

Yes, I know, it's not apples to apples.  Business satisfies consumer demand.  The demand is what I'm referring to.

 

I've long mused over the boasts of Euros (British snobs in particular) about being so well traveled, when in reality, they seem to bounce from 1 fish and chips bubble to another in one of a few mass tourism enclaves ~ aka: ghettos. 

 

Moaning about failure of others to integrate is ironic. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by 55Jay

[DM07]

20 hours ago, roobaa01 said:

just one example of what these illega freeloaders cash in on social welfare in a german town of montabour a muslim syrian arrived with his 4 wifes and 23 kids receiving annual welfare benefits euro 370.000. they came in from greece a safe country.

 

wbr

roobaa01

 

 

Source?

[cooked]

48 minutes ago, DM07 said:

Source?

All over the net. Of course left wing sources won't report on this kind of stuff so don't expect any. Here's one from the german employers association. https://www.deutscherarbeitgeberverband.de/klartextfabrik/2016_10_03_dav_klartextfabrik_frauen-kinder.html

They calculate that this guy uses up the contributions to the welfare system of 95 German workers.

[simple1]

3 hours ago, cooked said:

As usual, no counter argument coming up in this kind of "discussion". At least you avoided insults.

Don't want to let go??? You have completely failed to back up your claims, not even with reasonable respected source. Here, I'll help you out with a sample link for you to factually dispute...

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/15/europe-projected-to-retain-its-christian-majority-but-religious-minorities-will-grow/

[cooked]

26 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Don't want to let go??? You have completely failed to back up your claims, not even with reasonable respected source. Here, I'll help you out with a sample link for you to factually dispute...

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/15/europe-projected-to-retain-its-christian-majority-but-religious-minorities-will-grow/

That's a good boy. I am open to any arguments I haven't been aware of before, well done! I thought you didn't like Pew.

[Donutz]

On ‎3‎-‎4‎-‎2017 at 8:35 AM, roobaa01 said:

just one example of what these illega freeloaders cash in on social welfare in a german town of montabour a muslim syrian arrived with his 4 wifes and 23 kids receiving annual welfare benefits euro 370.000. they came in from greece a safe country.

 

wbr

roobaa01

 

 

Link please, my German is a bit rusty but I can read it or rely on Google translate if I have to. Sounds like nonense though since polygamy is illegal so at 'best' you would have a large group of people living together (not seen as one family). And 5,75 is a bit of an high number of children even for immigrants. The global avarage is around 2, an in Syria it's jsut below 3. World wide and also in the regions these people come from birthrates are declining.

 

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/syria/fertility-rate-total-births-per-woman-wb-data.html

 

But let's say these people are the exception and they women all have 5 or 6 children, genuinly theirs.  At best the woman could all claim support for 5-6 children, the man surely could not, I cannot see him being seen as a father of 26 children. We'd still need some more info to see how much support these people would get:

http://www.lawyerdb.de/Support.aspx 

 

But some links with more information about this case would surely help. And even if all these people would get that money, it says nothing about how common it is. It's not common, the amount of children per women is a big clue here...

https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigures/SocietyState/Population/Births/Births.html

 

On ‎3‎-‎4‎-‎2017 at 9:55 AM, cooked said:

Many Turkish immigrants are very well integrated, to the point that they don't think that mass uncontrolled immigration is a good idea.

However 80% of Turkish immigrants in Germany live from social welfare (four wives, 10 kids for instance), 70% of their kids leave school before finishing and their first language is Turkish. 50% of them think that Sharia law should be more important than the law of the land that they are living in. And so on.

You want problems? Continue, and continue to tell Germans that they are evil people, wondering why right wing extremists begin popping up everywhere.

Demography suggests that by 2050, Germany, like Denmark, will be a majority Muslim state.

 

Source?  It's the same nonsense we hear in NL, UK etc. Look at the size of the population: 5% in Gerrmany, 6% in NL, 5% in UK, 5% in Sweden etc. around 2 babies born per women also for these people with an immigration background (thus no growth, they barely can sustain their size and even that is unlikely) and net migration numbers that are not exactly a tsunami. The German statistics office writes abuot the population expectations up to 2060:

 

----

. The first migration scenario assumes that the initially very high
annual net immigration of 500,000 persons will level out to 100,000 persons within
the six years to 2021. Afterwards, net migration will remain stable at 100,000 persons
per year. The second scenario is based on the assumption that annual net migration
will gradually drop to 200,000 by 2021 and will then remain at this level.

---

 

Taking all that into account a muslim or migrant majority by 2050, 2060 or 2100 is nuts. Fearmongering. All this energy is better spent on dealing with actual problems (with migrants or non-migrants) such as making sure all people abide the law, that their are no special treatments for any group etc.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/datablog/2016/dec/13/europeans-massively-overestimate-muslim-population-poll-shows

 

https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigures/SocietyState/Population/MigrationIntegration/MigrationIntegration.html

 

https://www.destatis.de/EN/Publications/Specialized/Population/GermanyPopulation2060_5124206159004.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

 

Edit: okay, checking an other source it says about 5,5% of the population is muslim in Germany. Give ti a genrous 6+% and take birthrates into account it would still require massive amounts of people to convert and changing migration policies to extremely liberal (open borders to all) to boost net migration numbers for decades to come.. :

http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/neue-hochrechnung-vorgestellt-deutsche-verschaetzen-sich-massiv-so-viele-muslime-leben-wirklich-in-deutschland_id_6356282.html

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Donutz

[DM07]

4 hours ago, cooked said:

All over the net. Of course left wing sources won't report on this kind of stuff so don't expect any. Here's one from the german employers association. https://www.deutscherarbeitgeberverband.de/klartextfabrik/2016_10_03_dav_klartextfabrik_frauen-kinder.html

They calculate that this guy uses up the contributions to the welfare system of 95 German workers.

"They" don't!

He does!

It's an opinion- piece and there are no sources for his numbers and assumptions!

Next!

[cooked]

10 minutes ago, DM07 said:

"They" don't!

He does!

It's an opinion- piece and there are no sources for his numbers and assumptions!

Next!

"They" are the German employers' Association. It isn't an opinion piece. and there are plenty of other links in German referring to the same case.

We are, as usual when discussing this kind of stuff, going way off topic. Are the Turks integrating? definitely not. Erdogan tells them not to. The ISESCO tells them not to. This means they won't tolerate tolerance, and makes it very difficult to tolerate intolerant people.

[Donutz]

I seem to have missed that link about this family, sorry.

 

30 minutes ago, DM07 said:

"They" don't!

He does!

It's an opinion- piece and there are no sources for his numbers and assumptions!

Next!

 

Indeed, and he mentions 'the sun'  and 'bild' , not exactly known as objective media! 555

But if I searchthe net I find that the amount of money mentioned is an assumption (speculation). And that makes sense, for starters since the man involved is a rich businessman, that should have a rather negative impact on wellfare claims.  It also becomes clear (and common sense could tell you this) that this is an extremly rare case.  With a bit of luck you may find reports of potential welfare abuse among any group in the German population. Just as we may find reports of people who fall through the cracks and are let down by the welfare state in an injust manner.

 

- https://de.sputniknews.com/gesellschaft/20161031313178012-migranten-360000euro/

-http://www.rhein-zeitung.de/region/lokales/westerwald_artikel,-syrischer-geschaeftsmann-reist-mit-vier-ehefrauen-und-23-kindern-ein-_arid,1539821.html

 

So... Next.

 

[i claudius]

7 hours ago, 55Jay said:

Yes, I know, it's not apples to apples.  Business satisfies consumer demand.  The demand is what I'm referring to.

 

I've long mused over the boasts of Euros (British snobs in particular) about being so well traveled, when in reality, they seem to bounce from 1 fish and chips bubble to another in one of a few mass tourism enclaves ~ aka: ghettos. 

 

Moaning about failure of others to integrate is ironic. 

I have many ,many friends here in Thailand , not one lives in a Ghetto , they all without exeption live in very close proximity to Thai people , in Fact we (my Thai wife and i) live in a gated Ghetto , although i am not the only falang in the village , there is another one , the other 50 or so family's are Thai ,

oh by the way the last time i had fish and chips was in the UK

[alocacoc]

Merkel is completely insane. Her guests do rape, steal, killing and whatever every single day.

 

This lunatic belongs behind bars for destroying Europe.

 

[55Jay]

31 minutes ago, i claudius said:

I have many ,many friends here in Thailand , not one lives in a Ghetto , they all without exeption live in very close proximity to Thai people , in Fact we (my Thai wife and i) live in a gated Ghetto , although i am not the only falang in the village , there is another one , the other 50 or so family's are Thai ,

oh by the way the last time i had fish and chips was in the UK

Oh, so you're the 1, eh? 

 

I live among Thais as well, there's only 1 other farang that I know of in my moo baan.  I ate rice today.  Burped a word of thanks to my wife in Thai language.  Hurrah for me, alert the media.

 

BTW, I'm just having a bit of fun thinking about those who shout about integration being, in some cases, the least willing (or able?) to integrate when the tables are turned. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by 55Jay

[ilostmypassword]

22 hours ago, cooked said:

Have you visited Germany and Denmark recently?

Your maths don't work.

Google it for yourself. I did. http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/detail/turks-in-germany-are-a-time-bomb

Let me try to make the math simpler for you. You attempted to reconcile the 2 assertions: the first being that there is 23 percent employment among Turks and the second that 80 percent of Turks are on some sort of welfare.  Your explanation was that Turks have large families so even though only 23 percent lacked work, if you include the nonworking family members it could amount to 80 percent of all Turks eligible for welfare in Germany. What your simplistic reasoning didn' take account of was that this would mean that the 77 percent of employed Turks would only account for a total of 20 percent of the German Turks eligible for welfare but not on it.  Yours is as glaring a case of mathematical ineptitude as I have seen.

As for the 2nd article you cite, it was the source of information for the first article you cited. And it contains no independently verifiable facts at all. No links to any studies or authorities.  But it does cater to the prejudices of people like you. Which I guess, in your eyes, makes it trustworthy.

[ilostmypassword]

11 hours ago, cooked said:

You're in a bad way. It isn't a fabricated figure, it is a demographic fact. If it isn't, please give me a link to disprove it. Pew research must be the most respected organisation of its kind, maybe they were wrong? Their predictions were made before the current immigration surge.  I have an open mind you see.

So let's just say before the end of this century, so that's alright then. Politicians don't think much further than the next elections.

 

You're the party who made the assertion. It's incumbent upon you to provide support for it. And not just another unsupported assertion by a third party.

[Donutz]

Some of the posters here seem very frustrated and throwing around unfounded claims that " these 'guests' are here to rape and steal"  or " 1 in 200 wil rape or be an extremist"  etc.  No foundation what so ever for those numbers.

 

But do a quick match, see the asylum statistics (never mind that getting in does not mean that you can stay, wellfare immigrants from Marocco for instance cannot stay and will be deported or disappear off the radar though a life in ths shadows is not exactly a sustainable one...) then claims that a massive ratio of 1/200 or worse are all scum, rapists, thiefs etc. just does not make much sense.

 

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics

 

Graph:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Asylum_applications_(non-EU)_in_the_EU-28_Member_States,_2006–2016_(thousands)_YB17.png

 

The peak shows 1.000.000 up to 1.200.000 applicants. Now this does not show how many people actually got protection or how many family joined later (no you cannot stay tripple the number of one million first time applicants for the EU). The EU writes " The 28 Member States of the European Union (EU) granted protection status to 333 350 asylum seekers in 2015, an increase of 72% compared with 2014. Since 2008, a total of nearly 1.1 million asylum seekers have been granted protection status in the EU. "

Source: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/en/web/products-press-releases/-/3-20042016-AP

 

So in total over since the crisis just over a million people actually got to stay. Now how many of them derail into crime, rape or extremism? Funny thing is that pretty much all of them are on the run to get away from the extremist nutjobs but indeed as with any large group you will find extremisists, thugs, rapists, mental patients etc. amongst them. Of all the born and bread Europeans that move to an other cuontry you can be sure there are a number of unwanted amongst them. But you cannot hold that against the entire group! Same applies to these asylum seekers. If the random, unfounded estimates that some members here shared were anything close to the truth you'd see thousands and thousands of people raping, stealing, looting etc... Kind of hard to cover up even if there was some sort of hidden agenda or agreement to try and do so...

 

Though it is true that from the classic labour immigrants that came from Turkey, Marocco etc. integration has been a bit poor.  You'll find extensive reports from the autorities (in NL and other countries) about where the problems and failures are, especially those with Turkish roots have a disproportionate amount of problems and poor integratio. But that's still far from the unsupported massive % of scum some members claim we are seeing 'destroying the EU/Germany from within' .

 

Edit:  ANd because claims should be backed up with numbers provided by reliabel source and I said that there is a disproportinate nuber of people with Turkish roots that poorly integrated, here is a Dutch government an anual report from 2016 on integration: https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/publication/2016/47/annual-report-on-integration-2016

 

And I have the impression lots of parralels can be drawn between NL and DE. So yes there are various problems and issues and few denies those, but that's no excuse to make outragious claims of massive hordes of raping and looting hordes of testosteron bombs devastating Europe.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Donutz

[elgordo38]

On 4/3/2017 at 1:25 PM, dick dasterdly said:

I agree.

 

There's nothing wrong with allowing genuine refugees into another country, as long as there are proper containment measures in place and/or the numbers are small and they are properly 'vetted'.

 

Unfortunately this has not been the case recently.

Makes me ask the question dick you think that the status quo will ever return with the tsunami of people leaving their home countries because of war and seeking a better way of life? Methinks not. 

[Donutz]

1 hour ago, spiderorchid said:

ilostmypassport is right about one thing. Germany invited cheap labour Turks in about 40 years ago. There were moves to stop this invasion but somehow, a former deep seated communist got in. Now the flood doors are open and Angela now bleats about them showing some respect for the culture of Germany. It is too late now, there are too many any they show as much respect for their new culture as they did the one they fled. But she did not just invite Turks to flood the country, it was any displaced muslim from around the globe. You will see a few atrocities from them every week but wait until they breed. Their children will loath this foreign country and seek full jihad retribution. 

Invasion? You mean temporary labour migration of various groups (Italians, Spaniards, later Turks etc.) which worked fine (well less fine for perhaps the working class since migration labour presses on wages and such things but the employers sure were happy).  When they decided to no longer allow easy travel back and forth for labour purposes those temporary migrants that were in Europe would not go back.  Then there is something about christian values and family reunion etc.  

 

Depending on your view you can blame either the liberal powers / employer (no need to ask of temporary workers to integrate and if they are from underdeveloped areas they may put up with a lot of shit the employers throw at them), the christian powers (reunion) or the social powers (all labours should be seen as equal, equal rights, edquate them about rights).  In short you may blame one or various political parties and powers, all having a share of responsibility in what happend.

 

Which forces were trying to stop this (what part of the pie exactly?)? 

Flood doors open? There is simply treaty on refugees. Europe has welcomed asylum seekers since it's members decided it was the human thing to provide shelter to people on the run. The last large wave was in the 90's, so far that era brought more asylumseekers then the asylum seekers welcomed so far. 

 

Here the vedding proces takes places to allow genuine refugees to stay (temporary at first, but after prolonged stay they may get an indefined or permanent status) and to sent away those who are not actually in need of help (the economic migrants). 

 

And if we speak of 'too many'  why do all the 'we are being flooded' people not provided firm numbers (net migration, net population growth) etc? As previous posts discuss, the "OMG muslims are going to be a majority"  claims are insane and unfounded BS. But some seem to prefer to buy into fearmongering rather what is really needed, a debate on how any inhabitant including the minority groups that will remain a minority can all be made to live amongst eachother with mutual respect, tolerance, understanding of eachtother and all that. Luckily most people do a more or less fine job except a handful of nutjobs of various political or religious believes. But the real topic won't be adressed sadly, this topic too will probably only see a few more  "OMG Europa will be overthrown by Islam and bent to its will, we are flooded and are doomed but no I won't bother backing any of that nonsense up with studies and facts" posts.

[Stargeezr]

I will just say that it seems, that  many Muslims  are fleeing  their  Muslim countries, and not  fighting  in their  countries.    Europe  indeed  has many  Muslims from  countries  like  Turkey,  and  a lot  of  these  people  are  living  and working in Germany and  other parts  of  Europe,  but seeing  the  masses  of  young men who fled into  Europe  instead  of fighting in  their  home  countries, makes  me wonder just how  loyal they  will be  in Europe.  I  have talked  with  many Germans, and

Brits, Scots, and Swedes, who  tell me  of  their  real feelings of  their  countries  problems.  Many live in Thailand as they feel that  their home  countries  are  being  taken  over,  and  they  got tired of it and  moved away  to a Buddhist  country

Geezer

[dexterm]

43 minutes ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

I will just say that it seems, that  many Muslims  are fleeing  their  Muslim countries, and not  fighting  in their  countries.    Europe  indeed  has many  Muslims from  countries  like  Turkey,  and  a lot  of  these  people  are  living  and working in Germany and  other parts  of  Europe,  but seeing  the  masses  of  young men who fled into  Europe  instead  of fighting in  their  home  countries, makes  me wonder just how  loyal they  will be  in Europe.  I  have talked  with  many Germans, and

Brits, Scots, and Swedes, who  tell me  of  their  real feelings of  their  countries  problems.  Many live in Thailand as they feel that  their home  countries  are  being  taken  over,  and  they  got tired of it and  moved away  to a Buddhist  country

Geezer

>>Many live in Thailand as they feel that  their home  countries  are  being  taken  over,  and  they  got tired of it and  moved away  to a Buddhist  country.

... You are admitting your Islamophobic European buddies do the same thing they and you accuse Muslims of doing....running away.

 

But all your Islamophobic buddies are upset about is a woman covering her hair in the queue in front of them at a supermarket or someone simply being different.
Refugees fleeing war zones are afraid for their families being torn apart by shrapnel from Russian, American, Syrian, ISIS or Iranian bombs.

Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

Edited April 5, 2017 by dexterm

[the guest]

Yeah like all the ghettos which have now become the norm in the EU, and increase in crime, and demise of whole communities. The fact that most of these so called migrants (economic) are only here for a free ride at the expense of everybody else. 

Ah well, there's another million of them coming to Europe this spring. Pandoras box has been opened, and now Europe will suffer as a result.

[anon4546543]

16 hours ago, dexterm said:

>>Many live in Thailand as they feel that  their home  countries  are  being  taken  over,  and  they  got tired of it and  moved away  to a Buddhist  country.

... You are admitting your Islamophobic European buddies do the same thing they and you accuse Muslims of doing....running away.

 

But all your Islamophobic buddies are upset about is a woman covering her hair in the queue in front of them at a supermarket or someone simply being different.
Refugees fleeing war zones are afraid for their families being torn apart by shrapnel from Russian, American, Syrian, ISIS or Iranian bombs.

Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

Those of us living in Thailand have shown they can support themselves, showed real passports and identification papers, received the appropriate visas and showed we have a clean bill of health with regards to past criminal activities and associations. Your post is a joke on you. 

And yes, why should a small cultural thing such as wearing a bag over your head, be allowed in a free, non sexist secure country that you have chosen to invade, but not choose to obey its basic security requirements. Check the facts, women wearing a bag over your head is a cultural thing from a small minority of Islamists and has been replaced with a blanklet ban(excuse the pun) on nearly all Islam women. And also check your facts, the so called Arab Spring was started by Islamics. I do not agree with any country butting in on local domestic affairs but it has happened. Those of you who do not feel you should support either main group can seek sanctuary in the nearest safe country. This does not mean picking and choosing your country to demand, free food and housing, free education and a free life of sponging on your new country like leeches. 

[simple1]

5 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

Those of us living in Thailand have shown they can support themselves, showed real passports and identification papers, received the appropriate visas and showed we have a clean bill of health with regards to past criminal activities and associations. Your post is a joke on you. 

And yes, why should a small cultural thing such as wearing a bag over your head, be allowed in a free, non sexist secure country that you have chosen to invade, but not choose to obey its basic security requirements. Check the facts, women wearing a bag over your head is a cultural thing from a small minority of Islamists and has been replaced with a blanklet ban(excuse the pun) on nearly all Islam women. And also check your facts, the so called Arab Spring was started by Islamics. I do not agree with any country butting in on local domestic affairs but it has happened. Those of you who do not feel you should support either main group can seek sanctuary in the nearest safe country. This does not mean picking and choosing your country to demand, free food and housing, free education and a free life of sponging on your new country like leeches. 

I had an 'O' (retirement extension) - visa and as did many others never underwent a criminal check. 

 

Merkel has proposed to ban the burka / niqab in 12/2016, unsure if the legislation has been enacted. How many Muslim women wear such clothes in Germany. I recall it was mentioned that in France perhaps in the lower hundreds. IMO people are making a mountain out of a molehill with this issue though do agree should be banned for security scenarios.  As mentioned in other topics people need to understand the international lawful definition of a 'safe country'  rather than again and again repeating uninformed opinionated commentary. If you were a politician and expressed your views in public do you really believe the unpleasantness and alienation of your use of language would be useful for society?

 

Arab Spring was an attempted revolution against the various dictatorships' oppression, corruption and so on. I believe it's fair to say the Islamist groups had a part to play, but only really gained traction due to the OTT response by the dictatorships to retain power.

Edited April 5, 2017 by simple1