Motorbike accident deaths: Thailand number one in the world

[timkeen08]

I have read most of these comments/replies and would like to address defensive driving. I agree with those that support defensive driving but, personnally I must follow the skills I was taught in a defensive driving course I attended in America 100 times more because I don't want to die in an accident or cause the death of another person. As I was taught by my Thai wife and repeatedly reminded, "be careful driving, Thai people no think same same. Thai people don't care they die or someone die. They no think". A required course would do little for a lot of Thais at this time due to their inherent tendency to automatically refuse learning/accepting something new/different and ignoring the rules. But maybe there is hope. Many of my Thai nieces have had the opportunity of student exchange programs in America and have visited other non-Asian countries. They understand, that there is a different way of looking at the world and that change can be good. I have hope for Thailand many generations from now but I am afraid of what they might loose of themselves on the way. I would hate for Thailand to become America, UK, Australia, Europe, etc...

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[Dexlowe]

21 minutes ago, timkeen08 said:

They understand, that there is a different way of looking at the world and that change can be good.

It upsets me to say this, but you are being naive. I have worked with hundreds of Thais who've studied overseas, and only a tiny handful ever practise what they learn from others upon their return. (By "overseas" I don't just mean the leading developed countries.) The sad truth is that most slip back into their "Thai ways" when they come back, mostly because they come under the influence once again of Thais who are regarded as being their seniors or elders and who won't brook any questioning or criticism of their old ways. 

 

Sadly, you summed it up with the following sentence (any anyone being honest with themselves will agree): "A required course would do little for a lot of Thais at this time due to their inherent tendency to automatically refuse learning/accepting something new/different and ignoring the rules. "

 

I have torn my hair out correcting the same mistakes from the same people day-in, day-out for 30 years. If there is one thing I have found to be true it's that when a senior says "black is white", then for the rest of their days, the junior must never contradict it for fear of offending the senior. I hate having to say this, because I work with some great folk, but it's the undeniable truth for the majority of them, and it will never change.

[timkeen08]

It upsets me to say this, but you are being naive. I have worked with hundreds of Thais who've studied overseas, and only a tiny handful ever practise what they learn from others upon their return. (By "overseas" I don't just mean the leading developed countries.) The sad truth is that most slip back into their "Thai ways" when they come back, mostly because they come under the influence once again of Thais who are regarded as being their seniors or elders and who won't brook any questioning or criticism of their old ways. 
 
Sadly, you summed it up with the following sentence (any anyone being honest with themselves will agree): "A required course would do little for a lot of Thais at this time due to their inherent tendency to automatically refuse learning/accepting something new/different and ignoring the rules. "
 
I have torn my hair out correcting the same mistakes from the same people day-in, day-out for 30 years. If there is one thing I have found to be true it's that when a senior says "black is white", then for the rest of their days, the junior must never contradict it for fear of offending the senior. I hate having to say this, because I work with some great folk, but it's the undeniable truth for the majority of them, and it will never change.

I agree with most of your reply. I am therefore proud that I am associated with the large handful of young Thais that have not lost their perspective as well their families that embrace their perspective. I also include, some of my older Thai family members that are now US citizens and can't wait for that retirement age and return to Thailand for good. To this day, there visits to Thailand tend me to believe that they will always keep their perspective even after returning to Thailand. From my perspective, how can I be naive when you are only looking at things from your own perspective. I'm sorry to hear that you have worked with so many that did not embrace a new experience. It's all about perspective and your perpective of me being naive due to my perpective is as well naive. Your reply was appreciated but you could not resist the temptation so I apologize up front for not resisting the temptation as well.

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[Rama]

Another hub....

[Dexlowe]

@timkeen08 -- sorry, wasn't being personal -- was just trying to speak in generalized terms. Could you please explain "perspective" in this sentence, as I'm a little confused: "To this day, there visits to Thailand tend me to believe that they will always keep their perspective even after returning to Thailand."

 

You see, I've seen both sides of the coin. But the one factor that stands out from all is that Thais educated overseas will come back with bright, fresh and new ideas and generally broader minds (naturally, we all have broader minds after we travel). But Thailand's social mores are far too restrictive, and that makes it difficult for them to help broaden local perspectives. So they tend to give up. That, at the very least, is my experience, from right up close, not from a casual observation, and it has involved hundreds of people over the decades. I would dearly like to have more confidence in the future, but the signs aren't encouraging. Sorry -- I will continue to operate on the positive level, but I also won't deny the reality of what I have experienced first-hand.

[losworld]

Thailand has just created a new hub,..

[Captain Jack]

The person driving the bike, their thoughts, attitudes and behaviour are the ONLY factor that matters.

 

Add devices that limit the bikes speed and the teenage boys will be straight around to the local chop-shop to have them deactivated, just like they have their illegal exhausts, wheels, injectors and brakes fitted, mirrors removed, lights altered, etc. etc. etc.

 

Blame the roads? The rider is responsible for understanding the road conditions and riding accordingly.

 

Blame other road users? The rider is responsible for understand all factors pertaining to their safety on the road.

 

If your average motorbike rider thinks it's OK to ride on the wrong side of the road without a helmet while talking on the phone with 3 passengers then nothing is going to improve their safety on the road.

[timkeen08]

@timkeen08 -- sorry, wasn't being personal -- was just trying to speak in generalized terms. Could you please explain "perspective" in this sentence, as I'm a little confused: "To this day, there visits to Thailand tend me to believe that they will always keep their perspective even after returning to Thailand."
 
You see, I've seen both sides of the coin. But the one factor that stands out from all is that Thais educated overseas will come back with bright, fresh and new ideas and generally broader minds (naturally, we all have broader minds after we travel). But Thailand's social mores are far too restrictive, and that makes it difficult for them to help broaden local perspectives. So they tend to give up. That, at the very least, is my experience, from right up close, not from a casual observation, and it has involved hundreds of people over the decades. I would dearly like to have more confidence in the future, but the signs aren't encouraging. Sorry -- I will continue to operate on the positive level, but I also won't deny the reality of what I have experienced first-hand.

Thank you. Sorry for the typo (there-their). I thought it was clear, when I was not talking about our own perspectives, that I was referring to the similar perspective of the world that the young Thais achieve from living in another country via the exchange program as those that live in another country long term. I did state "I include". Sorry you had trouble connecting the two. Maybe you have not had the privilege of knowing many progressively thinking parents and families as I have. I just cannot believe that the ones I know are the only ones in Thailand. I certainly hope that Thailand has a better future than you foresee.

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[Dexlowe]

1 minute ago, timkeen08 said:

Thank you. Sorry for the typo (there-their). I thought it was clear, when I was not talking about our own perspectives, that I was referring to the similar perspective of the world that the young Thais achieve from living in another country via the exchange program as those that live in another country long term. I did state "I include". Sorry you had trouble connecting the two. Maybe you have not had the privilege of knowing many progressively thinking parents and families as I have. I just cannot believe that the ones I know are the only ones in Thailand. I certainly hope that Thailand has a better future than you foresee.

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I have pointed out that I've worked with hundreds of Thais who've studied overseas, so I guess it stands to reason that I've met people across the spectrum, including those with progressive thoughts (plus I met many well-educated and wealthy Thai families through my daughter's international school). Now, I presume you've been here awhile, and I would suggest, with all respect, that you've met the kind of people that I'm referring to -- it would be quite bizarre if you haven't, to be honest. You just choose to highlight the positive side, rather than the negative (which I respect). I, too, am inclined to the positive, but sadly the negative is overwhelming -- and once again I point out that I've met every kind of personality you can think of in the past 30 years. I should also say that I've never given up trying to pass on my expertise, especially with English, but it's a daunting task and one that I won't deny exists because it is a very serious issue. And where it exists, it must be addressed, even in fora like this. Sorry, but that's the bottom line. 

[kartman]

 

[YetAnother]

it is a social problem; another offshoot of the number 1 horror here= mai pen rai; thais are careless and self-centered; thus the way they drive

[wakeupplease]

The only technology that will cure this problem is BIB action and Green Boys making it happen. So cut the Friday night rant and screen Road safety then start education in the schools and learn them something useful instead of the usual bull never never land is famous for.

[seajae]

its not speed but the mind set of the riders, most have no idea what the road rules are and even if they did they would not follow them, they refuse to use indicators, they ride through red lights, they do not give way, they swerve between cars or go fast between the 2 lanes of cars, ride the wrong wat up a road and cut across the front of cars to turn, they are basically idiots. Many are well and truly under age and the majority have no idea how to ride let alone control the bike with 2 or 3 friends on it as well. Today I saw a girl riding her bike with her phone to her ear and when the car of front of her stopped she had no idea what to do and dropped the bike, luckily a couple of people raced out onto the road and picked her and the bike up and took her back to the road side, no helmet, shorts and a tee shirt, she was bloody lucky she only had scrapes. Thais need to realize that when they are on a bike they cannot simply do as they please but it will never happen because the laws are not enforced and the riders simply dont give a crap, speed kills a few but most are due to the way they ride/think.

[Jdiddy]

22 hours ago, kartman said:

 

I have a 'RR, how do i join this club?

[Ocicat]

Bikes on the highway at night with no taillight and usually a dim headlight along with the driver dressed in dark clothes is a real recipe for disaster. Come on cops, do your job!!!!!!

[Sambotte]

I will not argue too much, but i'm very experienced in driving, both cars and small or big motorcycle.

 

The MAIN reason for accident here in Thailand is : no knowledge, and/or no care, of basic driving rules/habbits !!!

 

- Motorcycle (small) : many do very big mistakes (not looking mostly) ;

- Cars (some of them) consider motorcycle as not something to take care of !!! Happens all the time ! A car coming opposite way will use your lane, or a car engaging same way will not wait you pass.

 

Rules about speed, helmet (most are like nothing), will not change much ! Just convert deaths to injured !

A serious driving licence is the point, including for small motorcycle. Adds on televison too. There are only 4-5 BIG DANGEROUS mistake/behevior to correct here that cause the thousands accidents...

[kartman]

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fa3_1494129957

[seminomadic]

Risk compensation theory - more proof that those who have decision-making power lack even basic analytic/critical thinking abilities.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

[Airbagwill]

On 2017-5-6 at 1:19 PM, Captain Jack said:

The person driving the bike, their thoughts, attitudes and behaviour are the ONLY factor that matters.

 

Add devices that limit the bikes speed and the teenage boys will be straight around to the local chop-shop to have them deactivated, just like they have their illegal exhausts, wheels, injectors and brakes fitted, mirrors removed, lights altered, etc. etc. etc.

 

Blame the roads? The rider is responsible for understanding the road conditions and riding accordingly.

 

Blame other road users? The rider is responsible for understand all factors pertaining to their safety on the road.

 

If your average motorbike rider thinks it's OK to ride on the wrong side of the road without a helmet while talking on the phone with 3 passengers then nothing is going to improve their safety on the road.

Very much in tune with current Thai government road safety policies.....and consequently completely at odds with all thinking on road safety for the past 50 years or more ... This lack of understanding is a major part of the reasons for Thailand's dreadful road safety problems.

I would also be very concerned about anyone's ability to drive safely themselves with this philosophy. However, many posts on this thread show that with no knowledge of road safety many expats seen to come to the conclusion (illusion) that not only are they faultless drivers ..way above any Thai drivers...but are also a fount of all knowledge  on the topic...apparently based on the premise that they have driven a vehicle.

Similarly if they went to school they are experts on education and if they went into hospital they are doctors... Or because they've lived in Thailand they are experts on Thai people and their culture.

I think Dunning and Kruger  might have something to say about that.

 

[Airbagwill]

12 hours ago, seminomadic said:

Risk compensation theory - more proof that those who have decision-making power lack even basic analytic/critical thinking abilities.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

I'd like to see how you relate this to Thailand ....I suspect you haven't actually taken the time to understand your wiki reference...or the topic as a whole 

[Sambotte]

On 06/05/2017 at 1:19 PM, Captain Jack said:

The person driving the bike, their thoughts, attitudes and behaviour are the ONLY factor that matters.

 

Add devices that limit the bikes speed and the teenage boys will be straight around to the local chop-shop to have them deactivated, just like they have their illegal exhausts, wheels, injectors and brakes fitted, mirrors removed, lights altered, etc. etc. etc.

 

Blame the roads? The rider is responsible for understanding the road conditions and riding accordingly.

 

Blame other road users? The rider is responsible for understand all factors pertaining to their safety on the road.

 

If your average motorbike rider thinks it's OK to ride on the wrong side of the road without a helmet while talking on the phone with 3 passengers then nothing is going to improve their safety on the road.

I agree with that. Driving a two weels with ONE hand is totally crazy, those who do this are dead/injured people in a near future. It's one of the 4-5 ENORMOUS mistake drivers in general make...

Makes me sick to see a baby in one hand of some motorcycle drivers for example...

 

BUT... Car driver are responsible for a part of motorcycle accidents, for sure, and the MC driver can NOT avoid it sometimes. Happens to my ex-girlfriend : she was at a stop, a car hurt her from behind (and run)... 

 

And i  do not want to be polemic, but driving slow can put you in danger in 2 weels. Cars, trucks, other MC, will pass you, sometimes in a non safety manner. And last, to limit MC speed may put them sometimes in death danger, because sometimes you have to speed to avoid a danger, from behind for example, or from a side.

 

I'm pretty sure that imposing a minimum of driving lessons (and adds on TV, and morality debat like for the babys), specially for the 4-5 BIG mistakes they make, would reduce well a fair amount of accident, maybe 50% or more.

 

But nothing is done on this BASIS.

[Airbagwill]

21 hours ago, Sambotte said:

I will not argue too much, but i'm very experienced in driving, both cars and small or big motorcycle.

 

The MAIN reason for accident here in Thailand is : no knowledge, and/or no care, of basic driving rules/habbits !!!

 

- Motorcycle (small) : many do very big mistakes (not looking mostly) ;

- Cars (some of them) consider motorcycle as not something to take care of !!! Happens all the time ! A car coming opposite way will use your lane, or a car engaging same way will not wait you pass.

 

Rules about speed, helmet (most are like nothing), will not change much ! Just convert deaths to injured !

A serious driving licence is the point, including for small motorcycle. Adds on televison too. There are only 4-5 BIG DANGEROUS mistake/behevior to correct here that cause the thousands accidents...

As said you are completely out of touch with the situation regards road safety in Thailand....it is unsophisticated thinking basically relying on no more than your unquestioning acceptance of your own limited and anecdotal observstions  that helps to perpetuate the situation as you are merely supporting as status quo that has persisted for decades.

As also said, driving a car does not make you an expert on road safety.. Which is quite clear from your comments.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Airbagwill

[wprime]

The problem is a lack of reasoning and analytical skills which is due to the schooling system that punishing thinking and rewards copying.

 

Take this for example:

 

The motorbike just followed another motorbike into an oncoming traffic lane assuming if it was okay for the other bike it must be okay for him with a complete disregard for an oncoming vehicle.

 

You see the same things at intersections where on vehicle turns right across oncoming traffic because it's safe for one car then the car behind does it without looking or thinking leading to an accident.

[dick dasterdly]

51 minutes ago, wprime said:

The problem is a lack of reasoning and analytical skills which is due to the schooling system that punishing thinking and rewards copying.

 

Take this for example:

 

The motorbike just followed another motorbike into an oncoming traffic lane assuming if it was okay for the other bike it must be okay for him with a complete disregard for an oncoming vehicle.

 

You see the same things at intersections where on vehicle turns right across oncoming traffic because it's safe for one car then the car behind does it without looking or thinking leading to an accident.

"You see the same things at intersections where on vehicle turns right across oncoming traffic because it's safe for one car then the car behind does it without looking or thinking leading to an accident."

 

Thumbs up - seen it too many times to mention!  One car turns across the traffic into a side road (because there's a gap) and the following car decides that its a 'green light' for him to ignore oncoming traffic and follow.....

 

Even in countries that follow road rules, those on 'bikes are killed or injured disproportionately to those in four wheeled vehicles - which is why parents have far fewer reservations about their kids getting a car than a 'bike.

 

Is it because they think their kids will drive more cautiously in a car?  Of course not, its because they know that any mistake by either a car or the 'bike is likely to result in serious injury (if not death) for the person on the 'bike, whereas the driver of a car has far more protection.

 

But of course, if the person on the 'bike doesn't drive defensively enough when someone in a car is outright breaking all road rules - its at least partly the fault of the person on the 'bike for not driving defensively enough according to far too many people .

[Airbagwill]

3 hours ago, wprime said:

The problem is a lack of reasoning and analytical skills which is due to the schooling system that punishing thinking and rewards copying.

 

Take this for example:

 

The motorbike just followed another motorbike into an oncoming traffic lane assuming if it was okay for the other bike it must be okay for him with a complete disregard for an oncoming vehicle.

 

You see the same things at intersections where on vehicle turns right across oncoming traffic because it's safe for one car then the car behind does it without looking or thinking leading to an accident.

I'dhe problem is a lack of reasoning and analytical skills 

I'd say that applies to most of the comments on this thread

[jerojero]

Bikes on the highway at night with no taillight and usually a dim headlight along with the driver dressed in dark clothes is a real recipe for disaster. Come on cops, do your job!!!!!!

Millions of citizens, expats and tourists have lamented your words about RTP, for decades. Most have come to realize no Thai Govt, military or civilian, has had the desire to take on the daunting task of RTP overhaul. Sad.

 

[Sambotte]

Ho ho Airbagwill... Looks to me you are just trying to be agressive, with no argument on your last post ? :) So much for "unsophisticated thinking", who is talking ? :)

I'm not in that way, i comment on the general topic and on practical proposal and analysis. Just opposite to, as you misinterpret, a statu quo supporting. Not the first post of me critizising the driving in Thailand.

And your are wrong way too here : I've been driving only motorcycle here in Thailand, so much for your not so clear view... And have been driving millions kilos both with cars and MC small and big in many countries in my life, zero accident.

 

May i suggest you read my post more intelligently, and comment on reality, and on the the general topic ?...

Not interested nor impress by that kind of agressiv post. That said, no offense taken :)

[wakeupplease]

Massive tread, this is motorbike country as wages paid are so low hence deaths due to education being as it is

[Airbagwill]

All some posters are doing is regurgitating the same old anecdotal prejudices about drivning in Thailand. They are failing to understand or even look at the problem and ask WHY Thailand's  road safety record is so bad 

Remember the plural of anecdote is not data.

 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Airbagwill

[Bigdogfarang]

Just been out on the bike to Tesco lotus in chaweng and 3 police at the lake roundabout looking for helmet fines - people where tipping people off the police were there and the Thais were putting their helmets on as they approached the roundabout then taking them straight off again afterwards - crazy really