Merkel warns Britons - don't delude yourself over Brexit

[Retiredandhappyhere]

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

 

Or "Those Brexiters sure had a gift for self-aggrandizement."

Freedom of choice is not "self-aggrandizement".   We had the choice to stay in the EU or exit it and we chose the latter.  Just get over it.

[ilostmypassword]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

Very well put, and don't forget the day we leave, for a thousand years people will be saying 'this was our finest hour' ?

Just now, Retiredandhappyhere said:

Freedom of choice is not "self-aggrandizement".   We had the choice to stay in the EU or exit it and we chose the latter.  Just get over it.

Do you understand that the saying "this was our finest hour" came from Churchill's characterization of the British troops performance in the Battle of France in 1940?  Do you really believe that a vote for Brexit was on a par with that? I thought Trumpitis was confined to the North American continent. Apparently not.

 

[Retiredandhappyhere]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

Do you understand that the saying "this was our finest hour" came from Churchill's characterization of the British troops performance in the Battle of France in 1940?  Do you really believe that a vote for Brexit was on a par with that? I thought Trumpitis was confined to the North American continent. Apparently not.

 

OK, but it was not my comment and I was responding to your "self-aggrandizement" charge.  I can only repeat that the UK had the freedom to choose to stay in the EU or to leave and the EU in its own "self-aggrandizement" was so shocked that one of its major members had the audacity to want to leave just when it was promoting the dream of a United States of Europe.  The truth is that were all the other member countries actually allowed to stage their own referenda, the EU leaders would have to withstand further shocks as the result would almost certainly be less members than 27.   

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, Retiredandhappyhere said:

OK, but it was not my comment and I was responding to your "self-aggrandizement" charge.  I can only repeat that the UK had the freedom to choose to stay in the EU or to leave and the EU in its own "self-aggrandizement" was so shocked that one of its major members had the audacity to want to leave just when it was promoting the dream of a United States of Europe.  The truth is that were all the other member countries actually allowed to stage their own referenda, the EU leaders would have to withstand further shocks as the result would almost certainly be less members than 27.   

But my charge of self-aggrandizement was clearly directed at vogie's comment.

[Aforek]

2 hours ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

 Although admittedly, unlikely,  a win by Marine Le Pen in the French election next week  would certainly put the cat amongst the pigeons and would cause absolute turmoil in the EU. 

You are right, that's why I don't want that this disaster happens ; it will be " return to the past " 

[citybiker]

For all those that may wish to scrutinise the EU draft in full.

NOTE

 

From: General Secretariat of the Council

 

To: Delegations

 

Subject: European Council (Art. 50) (29 April 2017) Draft guidelines following the United Kingdom's notification under Article 50 TEU

 

Delegations will find attached the draft European Council (Art. 50) guidelines following the United Kingdom's notification under Article 50 TEU, prepared by the President of the European Council.

 

On 29 March 2017, the European Council has received the notification by the United Kingdom of its intention to withdraw from the European Union and Euratom. This allows for the opening of negotiations as foreseen by the Treaty.

 

European integration has brought peace and prosperity to Europe and allowed for an unprecedented level and scope of cooperation on matters of common interest in a rapidly changing world. Therefore, the Union's overall objective in these negotiations will be to preserve its interests, those of its Member States, its citizens and its businesses. The United Kingdom's decision to leave the Union creates significant uncertainties that have the potential to cause disruption, in particular in the UK but also in other Member States.

 

Citizens who have built their lives on the basis of rights flowing from the British membership of the EU face the prospect of losing those rights. Businesses and other stakeholders will lose the predictability and certainty that come with EU law. With this in mind, we must proceed according to a phased approach giving priority to an orderly withdrawal.

 

In these negotiations the Union will act as one. It will be constructive throughout and will strive to find an agreement. This is in the best interest of both sides. The Union will work hard to achieve that outcome, but it will prepare itself to be able to handle the situation also if the negotiations were to fail. These guidelines define the framework for negotiations under Article 50 TEU and set out the overall positions and principles that the Union will pursue throughout the negotiation. The European Council will remain permanently seized of the matter, and will update these guidelines in the course of the negotiations as necessary.

 

CORE PRINCIPLES

 

1. The European Council will continue to base itself on the principles set out in the statement of Heads of State or Government and of the Presidents of the European Council and the European Commission on 29 June 2016. It reiterates its wish to have the United Kingdom as a close partner in the future. It further reiterates that any agreement with the United Kingdom will have to be based on a balance of rights and obligations, and ensure a level-playing field. Preserving the integrity of the Single Market excludes participation based on a sector-bysector approach. A non-member of the Union, that does not live up to the same obligations as a member, cannot have the same rights and enjoy the same benefits as a member. In this context, the European Council welcomes the recognition by the British Government that the four freedoms of the Single Market are indivisible and that there can be no "cherry picking".

2. Negotiations under Article 50 TEU will be conducted as a single package. In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately. The Union will approach the negotiations with unified positions, and will engage with the United Kingdom exclusively through the channels set out in these guidelines and in the negotiating directives. So as not to undercut the position of the Union, there will be no separate negotiations between individual Member States and the United Kingdom on matters pertaining to the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the Union.

II. A PHASED APPROACH TO NEGOTIATIONS

 

3. On the date of withdrawal, the Treaties will cease to apply to the United Kingdom, to those of its overseas countries and territories currently associated to the Union, and to territories for whose external relations the United Kingdom is responsible. The main purpose of the negotiations will be to ensure the United Kingdom's orderly withdrawal so as to reduce uncertainty and, to the extent possible, minimise disruption caused by this abrupt change.To that effect, the first phase of negotiations will aim to: – settle the disentanglement of the United Kingdom from the Union and from all the rights and obligations the United Kingdom derives from commitments undertaken as Member State; – provide as much clarity and legal certainty as possible to citizens, businesses, stakeholders and international partners on the immediate effects of the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the Union. The European Council will monitor progress closely and determine when sufficient progress has been achieved to allow negotiations to proceed to the next phase.

4. While an agreement on a future relationship between the Union and the United Kingdom as such can only be concluded once the United Kingdom has become a third country, Article 50 TEU requires to take account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union in the arrangements for withdrawal. To this end, an overall understanding on the framework for the future relationship could be identified during a second phase of the negotiations under Article 50. The Union and its Member States stand ready to engage in preliminary and preparatory discussions to this end in the context of negotiations under Article 50 TEU, as soon as sufficient progress has been made in the first phase towards reaching a satisfactory agreement on the arrangements for an orderly withdrawal.

5. To the extent necessary and legally possible, the negotiations may also seek to determine transitional arrangements which are in the interest of the Union and, as appropriate, to provide for bridges towards the foreseeable framework for the future relationship. Any such transitional arrangements must be clearly defined, limited in time, and subject to effective enforcement mechanisms. Should a time-limited prolongation of Union acquis be considered, this would require existing Union regulatory, budgetary, supervisory and enforcement instruments and structures to apply.

6. The core principles set out above should apply equally to the negotiations on an orderly withdrawal, to any preliminary and preparatory discussions on the framework for a future relationship, and to any form of transitional arrangements.

7. The two year timeframe set out in Article 50 TEU ends on 29 March 2019. III.

AGREEMENT ON ARRANGEMENTS FOR AN ORDERLY WITHDRAWAL

 

8. The right for every EU citizen, and of his or her family members, to live, to work or to study in any EU Member State is a fundamental aspect of the European Union. Along with other rights provided under EU law, it has shaped the lives and choices of millions of people. Agreeing reciprocal guarantees to settle the status and situations at the date of withdrawal of EU and UK citizens, and their families, affected by the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the Union will be a matter of priority for the negotiations. Such guarantees must be enforceable and non-discriminatory.

9. Also, the United Kingdom leaving the Union will impact EU businesses trading with and operating in the United Kingdom and UK businesses trading with and operating in the Union. Similarly, it may affect those who have entered into contracts and business arrangements or take part in EU-funded programmes based on the assumption of continued British EU membership. Negotiations should seek to prevent a legal vacuum once the Treaties cease to apply to the United Kingdom and, to the extent possible, address uncertainties.

10. A single financial settlement should ensure that the Union and the United Kingdom both respect the obligations undertaken before the date of withdrawal. The settlement should cover all legal and budgetary commitments as well as liabilities, including contingent liabilities.

11. The Union has consistently supported the goal of peace and reconciliation enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement, and continuing to support and protect the achievements, benefits and commitments of the Peace Process will remain of paramount importance. In view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be required, including with the aim of avoiding a hard border, while respecting the integrity of the Union legal order. In this context, the Union should also recognise existing bilateral agreements and arrangements between the United Kingdom and Ireland which are compatible with EU law.

12. The Union should agree with the United Kingdom on arrangements as regards the Sovereign Base Areas of the United Kingdom in Cyprus and recognise in that respect bilateral agreements and arrangements between the Republic of Cyprus and the United Kingdom which are compatible with EU law, in particular as regards the situation of those EU citizens resident or working in the Sovereign Base Areas.

13. Following the withdrawal, the Union with 27 Member States will continue to have the rights and obligations of the Union with 28 Member States in relation to international agreements. The United Kingdom will no longer be covered by agreements concluded by the Union or by Member States acting on its behalf or by both acting jointly. The European Council expects the United Kingdom to honour its share of international commitments contracted in the context of its EU membership. In such instances, a constructive dialogue with the United Kingdom on a possible common approach towards third country partners and international organisations concerned should be engaged.

14. While the future location of the seats of EU agencies and facilities located in the United Kingdom is a matter for the 27 Member States, arrangements should be found to facilitate their transfer.

15. Arrangements ensuring legal certainty and equal treatment should be found for all court procedures pending before the Court of Justice of the European Union upon the date of withdrawal that involve the United Kingdom or natural or legal persons in the United Kingdom. The Court of Justice of the European Union should remain competent to adjudicate in these procedures. Similarly, arrangements should be found for administrative procedures pending before the European Commission and Union agencies upon the date of the withdrawal that involve the United Kingdom or natural or legal persons in the United Kingdom. In addition, arrangements should be foreseen for the possibility of administrative or court proceedings to be initiated post-exit for facts that have occurred before the withdrawal date.

16. The withdrawal agreement should include appropriate dispute settlement mechanisms regarding the application and interpretation of the withdrawal agreement, as well as duly circumscribed institutional arrangements allowing for the adoption of measures necessary to deal with situations not foreseen in the withdrawal agreement. This should be done bearing in mind the Union's interest to effectively protect its autonomy and its legal order, including the role of the Court of Justice of the European Union.

IV. PRELIMINARY AND PREPARATORY DISCUSSIONS ON A FRAMEWORK FOR THE UNION - UNITED KINGDOM FUTURE RELATIONSHIP

 

17. The European Council welcomes and shares the United Kingdom's desire to establish a close partnership between the Union and the United Kingdom after its departure. While a relationship between the Union and a non Member State cannot offer the same benefits as Union membership, strong and constructive ties will remain in both sides' interest and should encompass more than just trade.

18. The British government has indicated that it will not seek to remain in the single market, but would like to pursue an ambitious free trade agreement with the European Union. Based on the Union's interests, the European Council stands ready to initiate work towards such an agreement, to be finalised and concluded once the United Kingdom is no longer a Member State.

19. Any free trade agreement should be balanced, ambitious and wide-ranging. It cannot, however, amount to participation in the Single Market or parts thereof, as this would undermine its integrity and proper functioning. It must ensure a level playing field in terms of competition and state aid, and must encompass safeguards against unfair competitive advantages through, inter alia, fiscal, social and environmental dumping.

20. Beyond trade, the EU stands ready to consider establishing a partnership in other areas, in particular the fight against terrorism and international crime as well as security and defence.

21. The future partnership must include appropriate enforcement and dispute settlement mechanisms that do not affect the Union's autonomy, in particular its decision-making procedures.

22. After the United Kingdom leaves the Union, no agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom may apply to the territory of Gibraltar without the agreement between the Kingdom of Spain and the United Kingdom.

V. PRINCIPLE OF SINCERE COOPERATION

 

23. Until it leaves the Union, the United Kingdom remains a full Member of the European Union, subject to all rights and obligations set out in the Treaties and under EU law, including the principle of sincere cooperation.

24. The European Council recognises the need, in the international context, to take into account the specificities of the United Kingdom as a withdrawing Member State, provided it remains loyal to the Union's interests while still a Member. Similarly the Union expects the United Kingdom to recognise the need of the 27 Member States to meet and discuss matters related to the situation after the withdrawal of the United Kingdom.

25. While the United Kingdom is still a member, all ongoing EU business must continue to proceed as smoothly as possible at 28. The European Council remains committed to drive forward with ambition the priorities the Union has set itself. Negotiations with the United Kingdom will be kept separate from ongoing Union business, and shall not interfere with its progress.

VI. PROCEDURAL ARRANGEMENTS FOR NEGOTIATIONS UNDER ARTICLE 50

 

26. The European Council endorses the arrangements set out in the statement of 27 Heads of State or Government on 15 December 2016.

 

A very brief summary as I only managed to get as far as serial #10

 

Single payment...

 

IIRC Mr Barnier made it clear that it was the 'format' of the sum to be agreed, and in the EU's own hard line draft (it's clear the EU wants Hard Brexit not the UK) that Barnier was either misinformed, poorly advised or bluffing to the media or anyone else who raised the issue.

(Or perhaps Barnier was fully aware of the 'complete' draft at the time.

 

Mr Barnier: Chief EU negotiator.

 

Either way, confrontational is likely to an understatement.

 

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[JAG]

7 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

On the other hand - remain supporters have frequently posted that brexit supporters are fascists/racists/ unintelligent/uneducated...

Indeed - isn't "numpty" a favourite label on here?

[JAG]

5 hours ago, pitrevie said:

Where on earth do you get to that position from what I have said especially given the Will Self quote. Nobody ever said anything like that but the death threats came from the Brexit side directed against someone pursuing their democratic rights and against others involved in the legal case.  Just like the assassination of a British MP by a supporter of Brexit. The odious comparison of a TV member to someone who was convicted of treason at the end of WW2 also came from a Brexit supporter on this forum.

Whereas the remain campaign was at all times a veritable model of reasoned argument, tolerance and an overwhelming desire to see both sides of the argument, was it not?

[pitrevie]

21 minutes ago, JAG said:

Whereas the remain campaign was at all times a veritable model of reasoned argument, tolerance and an overwhelming desire to see both sides of the argument, was it not?

Why,  did anyone claim it was?

[citybiker]

Whereas the remain campaign was at all times a veritable model of reasoned argument, tolerance and an overwhelming desire to see both sides of the argument, was it not?

A nice example of anti Brexit propaganda.
(IIRC the river Thames stand off with the then UKIP leader was Geldof's target).

Hypocrisy at its finest from the Irish Bob Geldof..


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[Grouse]

3 hours ago, JAG said:

Indeed - isn't "numpty" a favourite label on here?

Well said that man! Couldn't agree more ?

[Scott]

A post and reply violating Fair Use Policy has been removed.  

[citybiker]

UK-EU update:

Why is it that an 'unknown EU source' wishes to stir up media hysteria despite May & Junker post dinner saying the dinner was constructive. (Abiet Junker senses staunch Euroskeptic approach)

Summary, It's well documented that the EU wants to air its dirty laundry in public, while May wants it behind doors in private without commentary.

Also, it appears unsurprisingly EU dirty tricks showing its ugly head
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/01/revealed-eu-has-secretly-plotting-block-theresa-may-eu-migrants/


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[Linzz]

On 4/28/2017 at 2:29 PM, ilostmypassword said:

Yes, it's a brutal thing being in a free trade zone.  Which is why the UK doesn't care in the least about losing it.

Yes a free trade zone is great. A trade union is one thing but a political union under foreign rule is quite another.

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, citybiker said:

UK-EU update:

Why is it that an 'unknown EU source' wishes to stir up media hysteria despite May & Junker post dinner saying the dinner was constructive. (Abiet Junker senses staunch Euroskeptic approach)

Summary, It's well documented that the EU wants to air its dirty laundry in public, while May wants it behind doors in private without commentary.

Also, it appears unsurprisingly EU dirty tricks showing its ugly head
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/01/revealed-eu-has-secretly-plotting-block-theresa-may-eu-migrants/


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And it would appear that the EU is blocking a deal on EU migrants' rights. What an unsavoury, dishonest, incompetent and corrupt club it is that we're trying to escape from.

[dick dasterdly]

6 hours ago, citybiker said:

UK-EU update:

Why is it that an 'unknown EU source' wishes to stir up media hysteria despite May & Junker post dinner saying the dinner was constructive. (Abiet Junker senses staunch Euroskeptic approach)

Summary, It's well documented that the EU wants to air its dirty laundry in public, while May wants it behind doors in private without commentary.

Also, it appears unsurprisingly EU dirty tricks showing its ugly head
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/01/revealed-eu-has-secretly-plotting-block-theresa-may-eu-migrants/


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8 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

And it would appear that the EU is blocking a deal on EU migrants' rights. What an unsavoury, dishonest, incompetent and corrupt club it is that we're trying to escape from.

Fortunately, I think the Brits are unlikely to appreciate foreign authorities trying to influence the UK general election .

[jobwolf]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 6:58 PM, vogie said:

Of course you can speak english, you wouldn't get far in the world if you didn't. I speak german and french, and trying to learn thai. But in english we have a saying "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" I will let you work that one out.

There is not much to work out!! Britain threw the stone and now is in shambles. If it was not for the Indians,

English would be a minor language by now.

[teddog]

9 minutes ago, jobwolf said:

There is not much to work out!! Britain threw the stone and now is in shambles. If it was not for the Indians,

English would be a minor language by now.

 

The EU is going to get an almighty thumping soon, trump etc  will see to that, its all a frail state anyway ,just tottering along, the rugs getting pulled

[vogie]

1 hour ago, jobwolf said:

There is not much to work out!! Britain threw the stone and now is in shambles. If it was not for the Indians,

English would be a minor language by now.

Any links as to why we are in shambles, or is this another figment of your imagination? I suggest you must be very proud of your embarrassment of a leader Jean Claude Juncker, can I suggest, he like you hits the schnapps a little too much and loses all sense of reality. You come across as a very bitter man because the UK is leaving the disfunctional family of the EU, but fear not, time is a great healer and just because your contributions will have to rise because of our departure, fear not, the life of the EU is on borrowed time as it is, and before long the corrupt empire you greatly adore will be no more.

[losworld]

germany has become little more than a nation of brainwashed zombie citizens living in a stasi state... 

[Thongkorn]

On 4/29/2017 at 1:10 PM, oilinki said:

It really seems like some of the brexiters are hanging to WWII memories, while they were toddlers. That was 70 years ago.

 

One of the ideas for EU is to prevent war to happen again. So far EU has been successful with that single most important task. We haven't have a war inside EU for the past 70 years.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I thought Nato did that.  One thing that Britain has been,  is paying for Nato since 1947, something Most other European Country have not been doing, or have not been paying their share and even today are not,

 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Thongkorn

[citybiker]

There is not much to work out!! Britain threw the stone and now is in shambles. If it was not for the Indians,
English would be a minor language by now.

Being a speaker of 3 languages, some more fluent & having travelled globally over 20 years & counting in my experience properly spoken 'Queen's English' is still the more primary language I've come across.

That was a rather substandard and shambolic post to make.


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[ilostmypassword]

12 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

Being a speaker of 3 languages, some more fluent & having travelled globally over 20 years & counting in my experience properly spoken 'Queen's English' is still the more primary language I've come across.

That was a rather substandard and shambolic post to make.


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I'm guessing you haven't been to the USA.

[citybiker]

I'm guessing you haven't been to the USA.

 

Seattle, Washington state & DC, NYC, Miami at least once.

 

Canada twice.

 

 

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[ilostmypassword]

9 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

Seattle, Washington state & DC, NYC, Miami at least once.

 

Canada twice.

 

 

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Well, I guess in a personal sense it could be true what you said. But a big majority of english speakers are Americans and it's hardly the Queen's English they speak.  I'm sure you know of Bernard Shaw's observation about America and the UK: 2 nations divided by a common language.

[citybiker]

Well, I guess in a personal sense it could be true what you said. But a big majority of english speakers are Americans and it's hardly the Queen's English they speak.  I'm sure you know of Bernard Shaw's observation about America and the UK: 2 nations divided by a common language.

I agree 'properly spoken' queens English is in it's rarity, the US is no different however as long as individuals are legible.

From experience most Thai's I've come across speak quite well indeed, only in the rural regions have I encountered varied standards.

Anyway back on topic.


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[Grouse]

4 hours ago, Thongkorn said:

 

No, sorry but you just don't understand. Do you really want me to explain? Happy to do so if you so wish...

[Grouse]

48 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

I agree 'properly spoken' queens English is in it's rarity, the US is no different however as long as individuals are legible.

From experience most Thai's I've come across speak quite well indeed, only in the rural regions have I encountered varied standards.

Anyway back on topic.


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Is English your first language ?

[Thongkorn]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

No, sorry but you just don't understand. Do you really want me to explain? Happy to do so if you so wish...

ER explian above.

[citybiker]

Another example of EU inequality, in this article covering British motorists being penalised within parts of Europe.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/british-motorists-on-the-continent-face-%c2%a3640-speeding-fines-from-today/ar-BBAMCuD?li=BBoPWjQ




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