Cash-strapped teachers offered loans to clear debts

[Khon Kaen Dave]

12 minutes ago, robblok said:

I speak enough too.. i feel people should.

 

In Pattaya its useful to speak English (however why put in the effort if it does not mean extra salary) But what is the point of learning English if you are stuck as a cashier in Nakhon Nowhere. Point I am making and your avoiding.. most don't really need English> ia m all for those in contact with tourists or in the tourist places to learn English. 

You Mention 'Nakon Nowhere.' As Thailand evolves and more and more people are coming here, which is good for the Thai economy,  Nakon Nowhere will soon become Nakon Somewhere. KK, Udon, and other places in the North were nothing but tiny towns years ago, now they have Universities and an expat community.Towns dont stay towns for long. Look at Pattaya, a tiny fishing village before the VW. Now its spread to miles. You cannot stop growth, and with growth comes the need for learning how to speak to the peoples that are making it grow.It seems that you would like Thailand to stay as it is, to suite you.nothing stays the way it is, otherwise towns crumble and its people become dinosaurs.You cannot, as much as you would like to, live in a bubble.

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, optad said:

I am a bit surprised by your pov Rob. 

 

You have reduced, language, an educational cornerstone to a debate between culture and independence when clearly the type of education Thais want, need and aspire to and what i was talking was not as mutually exclusive to the points you make. 

 

ASEAN beggars language literacies and ASEAN has nominated English as it lingua franca. Not my choice. As a multi linguist yourself, you understand the critical understanding and cultural empathies other languages bring. Every aspect of Thailand's membership in this block depends upon communicative functions and it is well below current standards by its own MoE measurements.

 

Nowhere did I impune that the cost of learning English was at the expense of a sense of identity or what it was to be 'Thai'.

 

I did lament that the roundedness of Thai education was foreshortened by the limitations of its teachers. They do not have the knowledge content required generally nor the empathies multi-lingualism brings let alone the methodologies to renovate their teaching pedagogies. Critical thinking is sorely lacking as practice in Thai subjects yet the founding block of so many other curricula for holistic educational reasons. Just look at the International Baccalaureate curricula. CT is the basis of all subjects and concurrency of learning is not confined to one subject such as mentioned; biology or mathematics. Antiquated thinking and teaching.

 

Lastly, Thai teachers are by and large retrograde, i.e non progressive in attitude and pedagogies. Needing to debate my point with yours is their very own defense. But it is a defence for doing nothing and past failures and a failure to their very own student base. Teaching positions in Thailand and ascension are not meritorious but based on first come first served or seniority. Preservice teachers indeed are billeted to posts and oft remain. and regarding PD, the fact that IT connectedness has more impact on language literacy than classroom instruction is an indictment of thai educational pedagogy.

 

Thailand cannot progress without true multi lingualism and yet you fly that recalcitrant TV notion, language literacy is just for the lazy farang. Nominate any research Thailand has been able to contribute upon and then we have a discussion beyond the TV boundaries of the inane.

Your constantly missing my point.. English is important for those who need it. But why would someone lets say a math teacher need English. 

 

You say its that they need it to teach better.. I disagree. My math teacher was bad at English but great at his his subject. 

 

But I respect your view.. i thought it was from a different viewpoint.. that of someone not wanting to learn Thai. but you bring up valid points. 

 

I just feel its far to much to ask at this point and its better to get them better at their subjects and teach better. 

[robblok]

16 minutes ago, Khon Kaen Dave said:

You Mention 'Nakon Nowhere.' As Thailand evolves and more and more people are coming here, which is good for the Thai economy,  Nakon Nowhere will soon become Nakon Somewhere. KK, Udon, and other places in the North were nothing but tiny towns years ago, now they have Universities and an expat community.Towns dont stay towns for long. Look at Pattaya, a tiny fishing village before the VW. Now its spread to miles. You cannot stop growth, and with growth comes the need for learning how to speak to the peoples that are making it grow.It seems that you would like Thailand to stay as it is, to suite you.nothing stays the way it is, otherwise towns crumble and its people become dinosaurs.You cannot, as much as you would like to, live in a bubble.

Those few expats don't make a difference and it took long for Pattaya to get to the size it is now.. does not justify all the money and effort put in to serve a few foreigners. 

[optad]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

Your constantly missing my point.. English is important for those who need it. But why would someone lets say a math teacher need English. 

 

You say its that they need it to teach better.. I disagree. My math teacher was bad at English but great at his his subject. 

 

But I respect your view.. i thought it was from a different viewpoint.. that of someone not wanting to learn Thai. but you bring up valid points. 

 

I just feel its far to much to ask at this point and its better to get them better at their subjects and teach better. 

Actually, with respect, I think you are missing the bigger picture i speak to. 

 

Thais do have systemic educational problems. All educational structures are constantly tweaking but the aspirations, the goals by the MoE are not even close to being met. 

 

Your question/ Why does a good maths teacher need to speak English? I spoke to the general and once again you reduce it to the specific, low horizon "I". In any event, most progressive curricula and educational research looks at a holistic and indeed a concurrency of learning. Not old school package items you seem to refer to. The integration of learning points required today necessitates not only language, but technologies and articulated notions of difference embodied in critical thinking.

 

A good subject [maths if you like] teacher should be able to link his method content  into other curricula teaching points. This continuum provides a sense of past and future learning and integrating TPs gels knowledge across domains. 

 

These capacities are not present atm in Thai curricula and mathematics at a sophisticated level, will sponsor a conversation of ideas. A bit shocked this needs to be spelt out so literally. 

 

All of this discussion becomes specious once confronted with a student exiting a school valuing what I am talking about apropo one based upon Thai traditions. 16 and 17 year olds can see the world remarkably differently. Empowering them is what good mentoring should be about. A culture of negative ideas and immediacy does not do this. 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, optad said:

Actually, with respect, I think you are missing the bigger picture i speak to. 

 

Thais do have systemic educational problems. All educational structures are constantly tweaking but the aspirations, the goals by the MoE are not even close to being met. 

 

Your question/ Why does a good maths teacher need to speak English? I spoke to the general and once again you reduce it to the specific, low horizon "I". In any event, most progressive curricula and educational research looks at a holistic and indeed a concurrency of learning. Not old school package items you seem to refer to. The integration of learning points required today necessitates not only language, but technologies and articulated notions of difference embodied in critical thinking.

 

A good subject [maths if you like] teacher should be able to link his method content  into other curricula teaching points. This continuum provides a sense of past and future learning and integrating TPs gels knowledge across domains. 

 

These capacities are not present atm in Thai curricula and mathematics at a sophisticated level, will sponsor a conversation of ideas. A bit shocked this needs to be spelt out so literally. 

 

All of this discussion becomes specious once confronted with a student exiting a school valuing what I am talking about apropo one based upon Thai traditions. 16 and 17 year olds can see the world remarkably differently. Empowering them is what good mentoring should be about. A culture of negative ideas and immediacy does not do this. 

You like looking at a big picture because it makes your point more valid.. i like to look at things how they practically work. Good physical ed teacher does not need English.. good math teacher.. biology teacher.. ect they don't need it. 

 

Your constantly going up about the higher education higher ideas.. all really laudable but your forgetting that the main population is on on that level. You are constantly ignoring that most people need practical teaching, those that need more need to go to higher education. Higher education is a far smaller part of all teacher then you think. 

 

So I disagree with your points because the points you make only apply to a small part of the education profession. You like to bring it up to the exceptional teachers with the gifted students.. nice.. but they are a tiny percentage. Besides.. such exceptional teachers would already know English.

[optad]

7 minutes ago, robblok said:

You like looking at a big picture because it makes your point more valid.. i like to look at things how they practically work. Good physical ed teacher does not need English.. good math teacher.. biology teacher.. ect they don't need it. 

 

Your constantly going up about the higher education higher ideas.. all really laudable but your forgetting that the main population is on on that level. You are constantly ignoring that most people need practical teaching, those that need more need to go to higher education. Higher education is a far smaller part of all teacher then you think. 

 

So I disagree with your points because the points you make only apply to a small part of the education profession. You like to bring it up to the exceptional teachers with the gifted students.. nice.. but they are a tiny percentage. Besides.. such exceptional teachers would already know English.

You are wrong in the that my pov is tertiary. It's very pragmatics is when it is acculturated. Yes, even the PE teacher instructs with regards to other domains such as nutrition and health. It is not about blowing whistles and shouting "another lap".

 

Create the culture where this is the standard and things across the board change. 

 

Can be done. Just needs more of my vision than yours/

Edited May 8, 2017 by optad

[edgarfriendly]

someone wants their point to dominate, regardless if its factual or opinion based.

 

i wonder who that could be....

[lemonjelly]

Yep, seen it here; teachers on 25000 baht getting loans to buy 1 million baht motors, and before that's even paid off, a nudge and a wink with some dodgy paperwork and a friendly bank manager.... a mortgage for 3 million, that's how it's done here, ask your missus

[robblok]

33 minutes ago, optad said:

You are wrong in the that my pov is tertiary. It's very pragmatics is when it is acculturated. Yes, even the PE teacher instructs with regards to other domains such as nutrition and health. It is not about blowing whistles and shouting "another lap".

 

Create the culture where this is the standard and things across the board change. 

 

Can be done. Just needs more of my vision than yours/

My vision is learning to walk before one can run. 

[optad]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

My vision is learning to walk before one can run. 

Your biped does not know what to do with his hands after standing up.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, optad said:

Your biped does not know what to do with his hands after standing up.

Your goals are great.. I have learned to go for things that are possible / useful. But its ok we need dreamers like you too. You hold high standards and want them for everyone. I just don't see that working here anytime soon. For now people need other skills than English, only those in need really need it and those are just a small fraction of the students so only a small fraction of the teachers need English.

[optad]

13 minutes ago, robblok said:

Your goals are great.. I have learned to go for things that are possible / useful. But its ok we need dreamers like you too. You hold high standards and want them for everyone. I just don't see that working here anytime soon. For now people need other skills than English, only those in need really need it and those are just a small fraction of the students so only a small fraction of the teachers need English.

You have badly dumbed down educational outcomes/aspirations which are very possible. Indeed, necessary on the singular and community scale.

 

I am not sure why you are so tired but I am sure that chasm between us cannot be breached.  No ivory tower perspective here re thailand, just positive, achievable and needed goals. I think you need to freshen up.

 

 

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, optad said:

You have badly dumbed down educational outcomes/aspirations which are very possible. Indeed, necessary on the singular and community scale.

 

I am not sure why you are so tired but I am sure that chasm between us cannot be breached.  No ivory tower perspective here re thailand, just positive, achievable and needed goals. I think you need to freshen up.

 

 

Depends on what time frame you are thinking about, but seriously to think you can upgrade all teachers is not possible in my mind. Teachers (in my country too) are rooted in the old ways. To change a countless teachers would be impossible. If you are talking in 20 years achieving 50 percent of what your aspiring too.. then maybe. 

[chainarong]

9 hours ago, worgeordie said:

Thai economics 101 !

regards Worgeordie

All covered by section 44 sub paragraph 101,  get it right worgeordie.............................

[hawker9000]

11 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

How do you clear debts by taking out loans? 

Well, to be honest, I can see where consolidating a collection of higher-interest debts into a single 3.5% loan from a teachers' cooperative might make sense.  But it's debt consolidation and not a "clearing" of debt, and will only really help if the part about taking on any new debt is enforced (about which I'd be very skeptical). Spending and borrowing discipline is just not part of the culture.  Driving a nice car and having the latest phone, etc. (IOW, "face" and outward appearances) are a far more prevalent part of the culture.

[wakeupplease]

If teachers wages are the same as nurses, that is the problem. The salary for professionals is rubbish here. A eleven hour shift at night 1000 bath its an insult, In the  UK  the same nurse gets that for under 40 minutes work. But more debt to pay debt has never worked and only gets you deeper in debt. If you have borrowed from a shark, then a low interest government loan might help clear the debt as long as they do not go and buy another car.

 

Government employees get very low wages here, but do get perks, but still you and I would not get out of bed for that kind of pay, so that is why there is so much corruption around here.

 

Teachers here teaching English is not needed says Robblok.

It would help if they did and an asset to the country as the world communicates in English. Can you imagine the new subs challenging a US sub on the radio in there native local language or a pilot doing the same, if they did it would be game over.

 

Having spent a longtime in Thai villages one thing I was always approached to do was teach English to the Kids, I could not as I am not a teacher or would ever be one. My wife did (she is Thai) Those kids where so appreciative and their work effort amazed me as they really did want to learn even coming to the house and asking for more tuition on days we where going out. They have so much talent that is being stifled by the schools in all departments. Thai kids work rate when given the right tuition would surprise most Farangs looking in from a distance.

 

But if you get teachers who run up debts they cannot afford, then they themselves are not teachers but idiots who should not be teaching. You get in life what you pay for.

[Searat7]

Sounds similar to what they have done for farmers and usually involves adding more debt. I think banks in Thailand are 50% responsible for extending too much credit. They have a credit bureau so why are banks extending more credit to people when there is a high probability the loans or credit card debt cannot be repaid ?

[samsensam]

2 hours ago, hawker9000 said:

Well, to be honest, I can see where consolidating a collection of higher-interest debts into a single 3.5% loan from a teachers' cooperative might make sense.  But it's debt consolidation and not a "clearing" of debt, and will only really help if the part about taking on any new debt is enforced (about which I'd be very skeptical). Spending and borrowing discipline is just not part of the culture.  Driving a nice car and having the latest phone, etc. (IOW, "face" and outward appearances) are a far more prevalent part of the culture.

 

correct, high interest debts consolidated into a low interest loan is a good idea, but the loan and interest still have to be repaid. taking on additional debt rather than clearing the loan is committing financial suicide. people need to learn to live within their means it's common sense, unfortunately the problem with common sense is that it's not that common - and i dont just mean thailand.

[Khon Kaen Dave]

6 hours ago, robblok said:

Those few expats don't make a difference and it took long for Pattaya to get to the size it is now.. does not justify all the money and effort put in to serve a few foreigners. 

I can see that we are poles apart in our belief's. We will never agree on even one point. There is only so much that two people can discuss before it becomes a bore. You have your thoughts and i have mine.It would just be nice for us to come back in a hundred years, and see the results. And btw, Udon, isnt a few expats, there are quite a lot there, and not just pissheads, there a a lot of good expats in Isaan that, actually do want to help the infrastructure and the people. Go to the Isaan forum, and you will be surprised.

Until we meet again, in another life.

Your Pal KKD

[robblok]

36 minutes ago, Khon Kaen Dave said:

I can see that we are poles apart in our belief's. We will never agree on even one point. There is only so much that two people can discuss before it becomes a bore. You have your thoughts and i have mine.It would just be nice for us to come back in a hundred years, and see the results. And btw, Udon, isnt a few expats, there are quite a lot there, and not just pissheads, there a a lot of good expats in Isaan that, actually do want to help the infrastructure and the people. Go to the Isaan forum, and you will be surprised.

Until we meet again, in another life.

Your Pal KKD

Its good that we agree not to agree and wont bash each others head in. In a 100 year they will all speak Chinese here 

 

You are just a few expats.. compared to the masses of Thais.. you are of no economic importance. Sorry that I don't agree here. Compared to Thai consumers your just a tiny fraction. But if you set things like a 100 years.. who knows but I was thinking more immediate term.. like 5 years. 

[JAG]

Thing that tickles me the most is the 1.4 million teachers - Sheesh that is a lot of teachers considering that the entire student population (under 18) can only be about what 18 million (from a population total of 68 million). 
 
That is an excessively high teacher to student ratio 11: 1 or there about - So why are classes so full with 60+ students???? 
 
I am definitely calling nonsense on those teacher numbers. 

A very large proportion of those teachers are primarily employed in administrative roles, preparing and conducting largely pointless examinations, and generally mincing around the schools in which they "work" so that lesser mortals can admire them...

[MartinBangkok]

8 hours ago, robblok said:

So do you speak Thai ?

 

Its good to learn a language if you need it.. otherwise why bother there are more important things to learn. Tell me why a cashier should learn English ?

 

just for the record the signs are not in English.. the sings are just using latin script. 

555555 (Thai for laughing)

Good one :-0. Totally agree: Road signs in Kalaland (กะลา) are not in English, but whoever made them probably thinks so.

But. I disagree with your main point. A command of English gives the average Thai an opportunity to excel in many, many, careers and get better salary compared to those who can't.

Edited May 8, 2017 by MartinBangkok
Spelling mistake

[kannot]

15 hours ago, Fulwell53 said:

Great lets leave them to starve then

no one need starve  in Thailand , food  grows  almost everywhere, you could easily scavenge a  living here.

[anotheruser]

18 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

How do you clear debts by taking out loans? 

To borrow at a lower interest rate until the debt is paid. 

[fruitman]

17 hours ago, robblok said:

What is it with that need to speak English.. its not needed here.. people speak Thai.. ok some expats don't want or can't learn Thai so they want others to learn English but to what benefit of the student ?. Do tell me do they get a higher salary if they speak English ? Or is it just fo the ease of the lazy foreigner that does not want to learn the local language ?

 

Now for jobs in hotels and in the tourist industry I get the need, international trading.. again yes.. but for a cashier.. no need as the majority of clients are THAI.

 

Now why would a biology or a math teacher need to speak English.. i rather have a good math teacher then a bad one that can speak English. English is overrated and is only needed in those jobs where the majority of people they come in contact with speak English not for other jobs just because lazy old foreigners don't want to learn other languages. 

If you had never learned a foreign language you would still be sitting under the windmill eating cheese all day and milking the cow.

 

Thai who can afford it also like to travel abroad, latest trend is travelling WITHOUT a group...good luck with that without speaking foreign languages.

[Moonmoon]

Teachers aren't paid enough here in Thailand. 

That is why they are always coming up with extra curricular activities or extra tuition for the students and each student will have to pay extra for the classes.

Attendance is compulsory. Failure to attend will result the student in getting a failing grade for that subject.

which means payment is compulsory.

 

Just today a teacher has committed fraud against a 8 year old student in nakhon si thammarat.

He swindled the kid out of 400,000 Baht off his family.

Details of the case I will leave it to TVF to update tomorrow as it is big news.

 

I have a thai teacher friend who moved from teaching in BKK back to his hometown in Ratchaburi as it is getting too expensive in BKK. 

His parents are teachers as well and he claims the benefits are no longer the same from his parents time and present. 

[Stargeezr]

Hey not all these teachers are math teachers,  so how do they know to save a bit of their money and not get into debt.

  This is the quality of education teachers in Thailand.  Guess they were not taught that if you borrow money you will

have to pay it back.

Geezer

[robblok]

7 hours ago, fruitman said:

If you had never learned a foreign language you would still be sitting under the windmill eating cheese all day and milking the cow.

 

Thai who can afford it also like to travel abroad, latest trend is travelling WITHOUT a group...good luck with that without speaking foreign languages.

Your missing the point, learning foreign languages is useful but not for everyone. Its better to get the normal standard up for their normal jobs before going on about English. Most !!!!! Thais have little or no use for English. Its foreigners like you who want them to speak English because you don't speak Thai. If one in 1000 clients is foreigner.. its not useful to invest your time in learning English, its far more useful if your a cashier then to invest your time in learning more about calculations and accounting. It has a far larger impact. Same goes for an electrician .. better to learn more about your chosen profession before going to study English.. sure for others it could be useful but they are far from a MAJORITY of Thais. 

[robblok]

17 minutes ago, Khon Kaen Dave said:

Lecture halls, hold no problems for me. I lectured at a college for years on Plumbing design and public health.What was your subject? How to make friends and influence people?

Good.. so you would want Thai plumbers to speak English.. IMHO it would be better to teach them the basic and advanced skills of plumbing given that that education is not even that great. Better to first get the main subject on a good level then something that is far less useful in the chosen profession. 

[muzmurray]

7 hours ago, fruitman said:

Thai who can afford it also like to travel abroad, latest trend is travelling WITHOUT a group...good luck with that without speaking foreign languages.

 

Where did you get this nugget of knowledge about what is trending in the Thai tourist section?