Bravecto/NexGard

[wildewillie89]

39 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

I think you would find many of them are yearly non-core vaccinations. They have nothing to do with the conversation that was being had. I am referring to 3 yearly core vaccinations, I explicitly stated that in what was thought to be a 'rude attack'. That is why I was very direct in my questioning so there was no confusion. Clearly there still was confusion from you, and the other poster who took direct questioning as personal, rather than actually reading the words.

But I love the 'how long have you lived in Thailand' line of questioning. Why do TV posters always try to get personal and say this? My wife is a Director within the Ministry of Public Health. She is the one who has to enforce such programs on the country. The Ministry are also aware of they should be doing 3 yearly core. Fair to say I would probably have more of an idea than your average 'farang', who likes to think they know it all as they have 'lived here for so long'.

I am starting to wonder if anyone on this forum can actually read lol. How did you come up with  the conclusion im comparing Thailand to Canada or other countries? The Canadian vet quote was to explain how the drugs work, because clearly the other poster did not understand it takes many hours for ticks to transfer bacteria into human/animal.

http://pets.webmd.com/pet-vaccines-schedules-cats-dogs#1

Some of them*****. I suggest you actually ask to see the vaccine at your clinic. If they are from a company that labels yearly then fair enough, however, my clinic labels 3 yearly. So any more regular that is indeed causing harm to the dog. The vets will happily do 3 yearly as they know that is what should be done...they just don't tell you in the first place as they will be losing out on a lot of money. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by wildewillie89

[wildewillie89]

1 hour ago, wildewillie89 said:

http://pets.webmd.com/pet-vaccines-schedules-cats-dogs#1

Some of them*****. I suggest you actually ask to see the vaccine at your clinic. If they are from a company that labels yearly then fair enough, however, my clinic labels 3 yearly. So any more regular that is indeed causing harm to the dog. The vets will happily do 3 yearly as they know that is what should be done...they just don't tell you in the first place as they will be losing out on a lot of money. 

https://www.wsava.org/sites/default/files/Recommendations on vaccination for Asian small animal practitioners a report of the WSAVA Vaccination Guidelines Group.pdf

[dick dasterdly]

Since I first used Bravecto (and now Nexguard), I haven't seen one tick  - whereas they used to be a constantly recurring problem.

 

On the side topic of renewal vaccinations, experts can't agree - so whilst its an interesting subject to debate, at the moment it boils down to acting according to the opinions we trust more than others/personal circumstances as to whether our dogs come into contact with possibly 'unsafe' dogs/various other personal biases about the pharmaceutical industry, vets seeking profit etc. etc.

[MikaQ5]

I tried Bravecto on my Boxer for the first time in Feb
I must say I didn't see 1 tick on her in the following 3.5 months ( nor noticed any side effects )
She also was found to have ' no blood parasites/Parasitology test '
(In a recent pretty wide ranging blood test )


So in my opinion Bravecto works well ,
But the only negative aspect is I have not been able to source it again ( for her weight range ) from both the initial prescribing VET (and others asked )
Awaiting new stocks is what all say



Sent from my BTV-DL09 using Tapatalk

[wildewillie89]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Since I first used Bravecto (and now Nexguard), I haven't seen one tick  - whereas they used to be a constantly recurring problem.

 

On the side topic of renewal vaccinations, experts can't agree - so whilst its an interesting subject to debate, at the moment it boils down to acting according to the opinions we trust more than others/personal circumstances as to whether our dogs come into contact with possibly 'unsafe' dogs/various other personal biases about the pharmaceutical industry, vets seeking profit etc. etc.

Yes, Bravecto and Nexgard are the only drugs that will effectively work for most of Thailand. 

Experts can agree that a minimum of 3 years is more than sufficient and it is now the 'legal' standard in most countries. That is why every state in the States has now changed, every developed country really, from 1 year to  3 years for core vaccines. The annual recommendation was set in the late 70s with no research attached to it. Then Dr.Ronald Schultz had the thought most people would who have any common sense, if human vaccines last longer than one year, then why wouldn't animal vaccines. So he did the research. Now every world body recommends core vaccinations to have the booster at a minimum of 3 years. The previous vaccines antibodies block any booster before this (the same reason why babies don't get MMR vaccines til 12 months, as the mothers antibodies interfere if do it earlier). So all it is doing is causing unnecessary risks.

Your vets in Thailand will say 1 year, but that is due to the fact vaccinations bring in roughly 14% of their income. The paper I previously posted is from the World Small Animal Veterinary Association who have conducted an investigation in Thailand and found Thai have no research regarding vaccinations and should change to 3 yearly. All you generally have to do is ask the vet, if he or she is any decent they will be happy to change to 3 yearly for your dog (as my vet has). If they stick with 1 year you know you are being taken for a ride, and as the research shows, you are potentially causing serious harm to the dog. 

What experts cannot agree with this, when world bodies have set the recommendations? Would be like completely ignoring W.H.O recommendations lol. Experts cannot agree on usually if to change it to every 5 or 7 years. Those who have done the relevant research all agree on at least 3 years however, why the law is 3 years in most of the world. Thai 'experts' don't agree as Thai have done literally zero research on the matter, as the WSAVA stated in their investigation here.

The only reason the Thai Ministry of Public Health provides to do annual vaccinations, is 'heat'. However, no research backs that claim up. My vet also said that, but to his credit, he went away and looked into the research, and agreed, there is no scientific research that says heat has negative impact on vaccines. The Mrs has already presented this to the Ministry, however, due to variables that I am sure we could all guess, they keep the annual program. Just like they did when the world body told them to change also. 

But, yes, you are right. many factors influence if people do core vaccines yearly or three yearly. But surely, for the health of the dog, if world bodies say do it 3 yearly as a minimum whether you live in endemic areas or not (don't even need to do them that regularly), and then someone goes and does it yearly, they are a special kind of stupid. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by wildewillie89

[wildewillie89]

1 hour ago, MikaQ5 said:

I tried Bravecto on my Boxer for the first time in Feb
I must say I didn't see 1 tick on her in the following 3.5 months ( nor noticed any side effects )
She also was found to have ' no blood parasites/Parasitology test '
(In a recent pretty wide ranging blood test )


So in my opinion Bravecto works well ,
But the only negative aspect is I have not been able to source it again ( for her weight range ) from both the initial prescribing VET (and others asked )
Awaiting new stocks is what all say



Sent from my BTV-DL09 using Tapatalk
 

Get a family member or a friend to buy it back home and send it over in the post. Before Thai got the license to sell it, my dad just used to buy it from the local vet and he sent it over. Just mark 'dog medicine' on the parcel, no problems. 

Or you can add two smaller weight classes to make up the dosage. They do that for dogs over 56kg as I think that is the biggest size. As far as I know Thai license only is up to the 40kg size. I have the same problem as the dog is over 40kg. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by wildewillie89

[meatboy]

in 6yrs.that i have been a member i cant recall any animosity between members in the pet section. that what is going on right now.

we all help each other the best we can with the knowledge and experiance we gather from our loved ones.

so this bravecto/exgard topic which is being tried to ram down our throats,i shant be reading anymore of it.

[wildewillie89]

The Bravecto/Nexgard part is confusing, members say they don't agree with it, then like other posts about people using it. The vaccine part is not at all confusing. 

Helping people surely involves showing people recommendations, made from the most recent scientific research that have been adopted by world bodies (that have indeed investigated/set recommendations on the way Thailand does and do things) - THAILAND!!!! Why it is helping is it is actually preventing serious risks to the dog (adverse side effects, tumours and other cancers as many vaccines are grade 3/4 carcinogenics...there is also research being conducted re auto immune diseases). What is not helping is not bothering to read the research as people have their own preconceived ideas based on no scientific research. If this is a 'pet' section, should we not be focusing on the 'pets' and not our own self egos/preconceived ideas that came about with zero research?

All i see is comments about bad vets in Thailand, how can we even have that opinion if our own knowledge of the practice is so limited seeing as it is clear not many on here actually look at the latest studies.  

Veterinarian guidelines in the UK (2015) for instance, now state that annual boosters are officially ''unjustified veterinary medical procedures". Such guidelines have also been told by world bodies for Thailand to follow!!!!

Are we honestly saying that Thailand, just because it has higher rates of disease, is any different in the scientific application of vaccines than other countries? When the research shows the boosters are blocked by previous antibodies, regardless of how endemic an area is.

There are higher cases of Measles in Thailand than my country back home, does that mean I should do annual boosters? No it does not, it will just cause potential serious harm and is unjustified. That is how flawed  the logic is in this conversation.

It is not animosity, it is basic science! Would be like having a discussion if water boils at 33 degrees Celsius or 100 degrees Celsius.

Would authorities and vaccine companies really risk writing 3 years on a bottle if the science didn't back it up?  

I came to the vet forum for some actual relevant advice, as owning pets in Thailand can be a risky business. But if it has reached a point where irresponsible Thai owners through no education are accidentally vaccinating their dogs at a more correct schedule than 'educated' farang, then yes, I will leave. I write 'educated; as posters are telling me other posters know what they are talking about.  

*By the way, type in 'Thailand dog vaccine schedule' in Google, the first thing that comes up is the paper i posted. The official world body vaccine recommendations for vaccinating animals in Asia, more specifically, India, China, Japan and THAILAND. Recommendations set 4 years ago...how out of date are members on here? Seriously? 

**I apologise if anyone took offence to the 'stupid' comment, but lets be honest, if we don't listen to all the evidence, then we are stupid for one, and two, cannot make any judgement on any vet within the country! So if the 'pet' section is a bitch and moan about vets, which seems to be what it is, from people who do not even understand the most basic of science, then good luck to your pets...they really do need some luck, as what you are doing to them is causing them potential serious harm! 
 

Edited June 30, 2017 by wildewillie89

[wildewillie89]

http://www.wsava.org/sites/default/files/WSAVA-2010-guideline_Thai.pdf

The report in Thai language for all your family. 2010 guidelines as you can see. MSD Animal Health is on the report. 

My Thailand vaccination book also has MSD Animal Health on it. Just goes to show how old the vaccine books are. Talking about vets scamming people, this is the biggest scam of them all, vaccination books that are 7+ years old that conflict with the official newer reports lol. 

[dick dasterdly]

23 hours ago, wildewillie89 said:

Get a family member or a friend to buy it back home and send it over in the post. Before Thai got the license to sell it, my dad just used to buy it from the local vet and he sent it over. Just mark 'dog medicine' on the parcel, no problems. 

Or you can add two smaller weight classes to make up the dosage. They do that for dogs over 56kg as I think that is the biggest size. As far as I know Thai license only is up to the 40kg size. I have the same problem as the dog is over 40kg. 

Or perhaps your vet now sells Nexguard?

[wildewillie89]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Or perhaps your vet now sells Nexguard?

Some vets have changed to purely Nexgard. Others are staying with both. I personally prefer Bravecto. Nexgard I will use if there isn't Bravecto (risk analysis), however, the dog did better on Bravecto. The only thing she showed on Nexgard was a some extra itching (reasonably common side effect). 

[dick dasterdly]

23 hours ago, wildewillie89 said:

Yes, Bravecto and Nexgard are the only drugs that will effectively work for most of Thailand. 

Experts can agree that a minimum of 3 years is more than sufficient and it is now the 'legal' standard in most countries. That is why every state in the States has now changed, every developed country really, from 1 year to  3 years for core vaccines. The annual recommendation was set in the late 70s with no research attached to it. Then Dr.Ronald Schultz had the thought most people would who have any common sense, if human vaccines last longer than one year, then why wouldn't animal vaccines. So he did the research. Now every world body recommends core vaccinations to have the booster at a minimum of 3 years. The previous vaccines antibodies block any booster before this (the same reason why babies don't get MMR vaccines til 12 months, as the mothers antibodies interfere if do it earlier). So all it is doing is causing unnecessary risks.

Your vets in Thailand will say 1 year, but that is due to the fact vaccinations bring in roughly 14% of their income. The paper I previously posted is from the World Small Animal Veterinary Association who have conducted an investigation in Thailand and found Thai have no research regarding vaccinations and should change to 3 yearly. All you generally have to do is ask the vet, if he or she is any decent they will be happy to change to 3 yearly for your dog (as my vet has). If they stick with 1 year you know you are being taken for a ride, and as the research shows, you are potentially causing serious harm to the dog. 

What experts cannot agree with this, when world bodies have set the recommendations? Would be like completely ignoring W.H.O recommendations lol. Experts cannot agree on usually if to change it to every 5 or 7 years. Those who have done the relevant research all agree on at least 3 years however, why the law is 3 years in most of the world. Thai 'experts' don't agree as Thai have done literally zero research on the matter, as the WSAVA stated in their investigation here.

The only reason the Thai Ministry of Public Health provides to do annual vaccinations, is 'heat'. However, no research backs that claim up. My vet also said that, but to his credit, he went away and looked into the research, and agreed, there is no scientific research that says heat has negative impact on vaccines. The Mrs has already presented this to the Ministry, however, due to variables that I am sure we could all guess, they keep the annual program. Just like they did when the world body told them to change also. 

But, yes, you are right. many factors influence if people do core vaccines yearly or three yearly. But surely, for the health of the dog, if world bodies say do it 3 yearly as a minimum whether you live in endemic areas or not (don't even need to do them that regularly), and then someone goes and does it yearly, they are a special kind of stupid. 

The scientific arguments are way over my head but (fwiw), I agree that renewal vaccinations are likely given far too frequently.

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, meatboy said:

in 6yrs.that i have been a member i cant recall any animosity between members in the pet section. that what is going on right now.

we all help each other the best we can with the knowledge and experiance we gather from our loved ones.

so this bravecto/exgard topic which is being tried to ram down our throats,i shant be reading anymore of it.

I agree - this is a forum for those that love their pets/plants.

 

Its understandable that we will disagree from time to time - but it shouldn't devolve to insults .

[wildewillie89]

19 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

http://www.wsava.org/sites/default/files/WSAVA-2010-guideline_Thai.pdf

The report in Thai language for all your family. 2010 guidelines as you can see. MSD Animal Health is on the report. 

My Thailand vaccination book also has MSD Animal Health on it. Just goes to show how old the vaccine books are. Talking about vets scamming people, this is the biggest scam of them all, vaccination books that are 7+ years old that conflict with the official newer reports lol. 

That is why combination vaccines are given now. You know, your 7 in 1 vaccines etc. Which, by the way, are the worst thing people can do for both humans and animals. They make these drugs as some vaccines, like Leptospirosis, are yearly vaccines. So it can force those people who havent researched to go and get the core and non-core vaccines yearly, which is very dangerous, but the companies and 'bad' vets make a killing. 

I would recommend picking the core vaccines as best as you can, depending on what your vet stocks in individual vaccines or small combinations. And doing them 3 yearly. Rabies 3 yearly also (the sticker in my book actually says 3 years). No Western vet recommends the Lepto vaccine, even if live in endemic areas (like I do), many vets in Western countries refuse to even stock it. That is because it is incredibly dangerous (most dangerous of all vaccines), and doesn't work - why it is considered 'non-core'. Only says it protects 4 strains of Lepto, from my research only 1 of those strains exist where i live in Thai. The rest (majority) the vaccine does not cover. But i am finding out more info on that from the Ministry of Public Health currently. So really a vaccine that is super dangerous outweighs the risk of getting Lepto for me (as Lepto has a test, and easy treatment).

The lepto vaccine also only works in 70% of cases. Also it doesn't stop animals passing it onto humans (through urine). A survey in an endemic part of America found 100% of cases of canine lepto were all vaccinated against it (high fail rates). Research has also shown the vaccine gives the lepto disease itself (gives what it is meant to prevent). Usually Lepto cases are mild (many dogs have had it and beat it), and if serious enough to cause symptoms or kill, then the vaccine will offer no to little protection. 

Seeing as the majority of Lepto cases are 100% treatable, vets advise you to watch your dog for symptoms. If fever, jaundice, changes in frequency of urine etc show up, go to do a lepto test/examination. Simple doxy will kill the disease, as it does with tick diseases etc. Also to get the needed antibodies from the vaccine to protect the dog fully, you would need to do 4 shots a year of lepto vaccine. Not worth is, if you are close enough to your dogs, you will pick up on they have lepto or not. 

Lepto is grade 3 out of 4 carcinogenic. Also a simple Google will show news reports of just how deadly the vaccine is (why good vets do not stock it).  

I strongly urge all people to look into Dr. Ronald Schulz's work. Even YouTube him if you are lazy to read. He is the god father of vaccine research for pets. All world bodies set their recommendations from his research. Also, he works in a university, not a clinic, so little chance of him being corrupt and giving bullshit advice (pharmaceutical companies would hate him). 

I fall on the side of caution generally. So even though I know vaccines last a lot longer than 3 years, I will still do them all every 3 years to coincide with the rabies shot. Which is 3 years by law in most places. Thailand do know they should change to 3, and discuss it at their Rabies conventions, but just haven't got the balls to make the move like all other countries yet. I know this as my wife is the one who brings it up at the Ministry of Public Health rabies conventions. 
 

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

Some vets have changed to purely Nexgard. Others are staying with both. I personally prefer Bravecto. Nexgard I will use if there isn't Bravecto (risk analysis), however, the dog did better on Bravecto. The only thing she showed on Nexgard was a some extra itching (reasonably common side effect). 

It will be interesting to read posters experiences re. Bravecto vs Nexguard over the next few months.

 

You may well have a point about 'itching', as two of my dogs started itching more badly relatively recently!

 

I blamed it on the chicken so cut this from their diet, and started giving them an Antinol tablet a day - (which has worked), but perhaps its the Nexguard that increased the problem?  Impossible to know.

[wildewillie89]

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

It will be interesting to read posters experiences re. Bravecto vs Nexguard over the next few months.

 

You may well have a point about 'itching', as two of my dogs started itching more badly relatively recently!

 

I blamed it on the chicken so cut this from their diet, and started giving them an Antinol tablet a day - (which has worked), but perhaps its the Nexguard that increased the problem?  Impossible to know.

Could be the Nexgard if it coincides with the timing. Also if chicken never used to cause any problems, why should it now i guess? 

Like, it is not a serious issue, the itching is not as serious as the diseases the dog could get so i would still be forced to go with it. But if the Bravecto suits the make up of the individual dog then would be better. Plus it is every 3 monthly, not monthly :). 

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

Could be the Nexgard if it coincides with the timing. Also if chicken never used to cause any problems, why should it now i guess? 

Like, it is not a serious issue, the itching is not as serious as the diseases the dog could get so i would still be forced to go with it. But if the Bravecto suits the make up of the individual dog then would be better. Plus it is every 3 monthly, not monthly :). 

"Also if chicken never used to cause any problems, why should it now".

 

Good point, but as always..... its more complicated than that.

 

One started losing belly hair before taking Nexguard, so its likely that she has a chicken allergy.  Another has always had a 'back paws' problem (occasionally whining and chewing at them) which became worse after being given Nexguard - if my memory time line is correct.....

 

I would add that surely something given that lasts 3 months is likely to be more toxic than something given every month?

Edited June 30, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[wildewillie89]

12 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Also if chicken never used to cause any problems, why should it now".

 

Good point, but as always..... its more complicated than that.

 

One started losing belly hair before taking Nexguard, so its likely that she has a chicken allergy.  Another has always had a 'back paws' problem (occasionally whining and chewing at them) which became worse after being given Nexguard - if my memory time line is correct.....

 

I would add that surely something given that lasts 3 months is likely to be more toxic than something given every month?

Depends on the make up of the individual dog regarding toxicity I guess.

For example, my dog personally seems to do a lot better on the 3 monthly poison, as opposed to the 1. But I meant in reference to the actual small hassle of having to walk into the flea invested vet to buy the poisons lol. 

 

Also Nexgard has the worm protection components so obviously would need more 'poisons' in the make up of it...adding to toxicity.  

True, re the chicken, especially if the source of the chicken changes. That seems a bit more of an extreme case than mine. My dog just itches every now and then, enough for me to notice, but not enough for the Mrs to notice. 

On a separate note, I just feed from Makro usually. I know, probably full of antibiotics, but the farms where we are located I know will have more chances of passing bacteria like your Leptos if we buy directly from them (not exactly clean). 

I will give a full Mackeral fish and 1 or 2 hard boiled eggs for breakfast. At dinner, either chicken carcass, and meaty portions...also some heart, lungs, kidneys (pig, chicken, beef), Every now and then during the day a big leg bone/veggies. On the rare occasion  dog food, if Makro is out of what i need (dogs does fine with sudden changes of diet). If can get the immune system strong enough, you will find a lot of the bacteria (your Lepto's and the like) will hit the dog, but will be dealt with pretty effectively by the dog so no symptoms will show up much. 
 

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, wildewillie89 said:

Depends on the make up of the individual dog regarding toxicity I guess.

For example, my dog personally seems to do a lot better on the 3 monthly poison, as opposed to the 1. But I meant in reference to the actual small hassle of having to walk into the flea invested vet to buy the poisons lol. 

 

Also Nexgard has the worm protection components so obviously would need more 'poisons' in the make up of it...adding to toxicity.  

True, re the chicken, especially if the source of the chicken changes. That seems a bit more of an extreme case than mine. My dog just itches every now and then, enough for me to notice, but not enough for the Mrs to notice. 

On a separate note, I just feed from Makro usually. I know, probably full of antibiotics, but the farms where we are located I know will have more chances of passing bacteria like your Leptos if we buy directly from them (not exactly clean). 

I will give a full Mackeral fish and 1 or 2 hard boiled eggs for breakfast. At dinner, either chicken carca"ss, and meaty portions...also some heart, lungs, kidneys (pig, chicken, beef), Every now and then during the day a big leg bone/veggies. On the rare occasion  dog food, if Makro is out of what i need (dogs does fine with sudden changes of diet). If can get the immune system strong enough, you will find a lot of the bacteria (your Lepto's and the like) will hit the dog, but will be dealt with pretty effectively by the dog so no symptoms will show up much. 
 

Agree entirely about the poisons given to our dogs to kill ticks, but fortunately the vet I use is clean and not flea infested .  Plus, I go there on my own to buy the products anyway.

 

Using the term "having to walk into the flea invested vet" only detracts from the reasonable 'argument' about too frequent vaccinations.  It would probably be better to start a new thread on this subject?

[wildewillie89]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Agree entirely about the poisons given to our dogs to kill ticks, but fortunately the vet I use is clean and not flea infested .  Plus, I go there on my own to buy the products anyway.

 

Using the term "having to walk into the flea invested vet" only detracts from the reasonable 'argument' about too frequent vaccinations.  It would probably be better to start a new thread on this subject?

I exaggerate, but our vet is relatively small. Not uncommon to have to walk through 5 or 6 'Thai' dogs just to buy the stuff. So getting some flea bites is a given. The vet is relatively clean. Although like many medical clinics here they request you take your shoes off. I never do. Interestingly enough. the Mrs was having the ultrasound the other day as she is pregnant , and the clinic had all these posters up for HPV. I was thinking isn't one of the HPV strains foot related, and you contract it from walking on moist areas other people have walked on with the virus (doctors bathroom for example). Anyways. Probably should start another thread, but usually I don't as I hate the way forums are so pedantic halfway through a conversation I am having with someone lol.

Distemper - 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology

Parvovirus - 7 years by challenge/7 years by serology
Adenovirus - 7 years by challenge/9 years by serology
Canine Rabies - 3 years by challenge/7 years by serology

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and What We Don't Know, Proceedings-Canine Infectious Diseases: From Clinics to Molecular Pathogenesis, Ithaca, NY, 1999, Dr Ronald Schultz (University of Wisconsin's Department of Pathobiologial Sciences). 

Research is obviously still continuing, that's why there is debate about 5 or 7 year vaccinations, but yeah, the absolute minimum is considered 3 years now, to coincide with the rabies shot more than anything (so people don't forget the other core ones). 

So challenge is obviously exposure to the diseases. Serology is the blood antibody levels. As if your blood has antibodies then the cells can remember when you have exposure to the diseases and protect you. The same as when you have a hepatitis test and you have had the hepatitis b vaccine, your antibodies are through the roof. 

Vets who have the option of titer tests (regular people do to, but would be expensive here), they titer test at 4 months of age to make sure the animal is ready for the vaccinations (I would assume waiting 4 months is like waiting in human babies, the babies/puppies still have antibodies from the mother). Give the vaccination, titer again after the dose, then titer every 3 years. If antibodies are still present some dogs will never need another shot in their lives (other than rabies - and only because that is the law). 

So the 7 in 1 vaccine done every year plus rabies is 8 a year. Say the dog lives 10 years, that is 80 vaccinations. Where as three yearly will be 12 core vaccinations. Those who have access to titer testing is 4 core vaccinations (I, personally, am not a fan of non-core vaccines, seem rather dangerous, do not work, and what they vaccinate against can be treated). So risks of short term side effects, tumours (sarcoma), cancers, and auto immune diseases are very high if we do yearly and do combination vaccines. Seeing as vaccines obviously require a response from cells, we can see why they are increased risk to cancer. 

I know many wouldn't believe the above numbers, but think about it logically. The annual recommendation was set 40 years ago with no research on duration of immunity. Now we can do research. Also think human vaccinations. Humans don't have 8 shots a year. And the last thing to think is the dosage is the same for all weight classes. So a cat at home would receive the same dose as a tiger at the zoo for many vaccines, a little Chihuahua would be the same as  my Caucasian Shepherd  - not exactly weak vaccines (the core ones anyway). 

I realise you are aware of vaccinations probably being too frequent, so I talk to everyone really with that last paragraph. 

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by wildewillie89

[wildewillie89]

1 hour ago, wildewillie89 said:

I exaggerate, but our vet is relatively small. Not uncommon to have to walk through 5 or 6 'Thai' dogs just to buy the stuff. So getting some flea bites is a given. The vet is relatively clean. Although like many medical clinics here they request you take your shoes off. I never do. Interestingly enough. the Mrs was having the ultrasound the other day as she is pregnant , and the clinic had all these posters up for HPV. I was thinking isn't one of the HPV strains foot related, and you contract it from walking on moist areas other people have walked on with the virus (doctors bathroom for example). Anyways. Probably should start another thread, but usually I don't as I hate the way forums are so pedantic halfway through a conversation I am having with someone lol.

Distemper - 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology

Parvovirus - 7 years by challenge/7 years by serology
Adenovirus - 7 years by challenge/9 years by serology
Canine Rabies - 3 years by challenge/7 years by serology

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and What We Don't Know, Proceedings-Canine Infectious Diseases: From Clinics to Molecular Pathogenesis, Ithaca, NY, 1999, Dr Ronald Schultz (University of Wisconsin's Department of Pathobiologial Sciences). 

Research is obviously still continuing, that's why there is debate about 5 or 7 year vaccinations, but yeah, the absolute minimum is considered 3 years now, to coincide with the rabies shot more than anything (so people don't forget the other core ones). 

So challenge is obviously exposure to the diseases. Serology is the blood antibody levels. As if your blood has antibodies then the cells can remember when you have exposure to the diseases and protect you. The same as when you have a hepatitis test and you have had the hepatitis b vaccine, your antibodies are through the roof. 

Vets who have the option of titer tests (regular people do to, but would be expensive here), they titer test at 4 months of age to make sure the animal is ready for the vaccinations (I would assume waiting 4 months is like waiting in human babies, the babies/puppies still have antibodies from the mother). Give the vaccination, titer again after the dose, then titer every 3 years. If antibodies are still present some dogs will never need another shot in their lives (other than rabies - and only because that is the law). 

So the 7 in 1 vaccine done every year plus rabies is 8 a year. Say the dog lives 10 years, that is 80 vaccinations. Where as three yearly will be 12 core vaccinations. Those who have access to titer testing is 4 core vaccinations (I, personally, am not a fan of non-core vaccines, seem rather dangerous, do not work, and what they vaccinate against can be treated). So risks of short term side effects, tumours (sarcoma), cancers, and auto immune diseases are very high if we do yearly and do combination vaccines. Seeing as vaccines obviously require a response from cells, we can see why they are increased risk to cancer. 

I know many wouldn't believe the above numbers, but think about it logically. The annual recommendation was set 40 years ago with no research on duration of immunity. Now we can do research. Also think human vaccinations. Humans don't have 8 shots a year. And the last thing to think is the dosage is the same for all weight classes. So a cat at home would receive the same dose as a tiger at the zoo for many vaccines, a little Chihuahua would be the same as  my Caucasian Shepherd  - not exactly weak vaccines (the core ones anyway). 

I realise you are aware of vaccinations probably being too frequent, so I talk to everyone really with that last paragraph. 

 

Actually there is a product called 'VacciCheck', which measures titer levels of Parvo, Distemper and Infectious Hepatitis, gives you the result in 20 minutes. I wonder if Thai vets have it (I'll ask next time I go). It has been developed specifically so vets just don't chuck in another vaccine due to the cancer risks. It is meant to be a routine thing vets do now as part of the annual check up (in developed countries at least). A good way of doing it really, vets don't lose out on the money, and the dogs can stay healthier. 

[wildewillie89]

Interestingly enough, it was in 1978 Schulz and his colleague published the vaccination protocol the world currently uses today. So the 'annual' booster, is an idea that is more than 40 years old among the 'real' experts!!! Just goes to show you really need to quiz your vet to see if they are up to date with their research. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by wildewillie89