British dual nationals asked to change names when applying for a new British passport

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, Eff1n2ret said:

That is a point I was thinking of making in my letter to HMPO, whose attitude does appear like arrogance to me.

 

I read on another site a complaint by a German who had lived in the UK for 30 years and had taken British citizenship under a name like John Smith that he felt allowed him to blend in to British society better than his birth name.  When the time came to renew his British passport he was forced to change back to his birth name of Johann Schecklegrueber or some such, since he wanted to keep his German nationality in view of Brexit and was not allowed to change to his British name in his German ID card and passport.  There have also been a lot of people who had to cancel holidays and business trips because they could not get this sort of nonsense done in time and no general warning has been issued by HMPO.  Outrageous arrogance and disdain for the citizenry in a country that openly allows and even encourages dual or multiple citizenship.  

[Drago]

On 5/30/2017 at 4:30 PM, Arkady said:

An interesting question would arise for a Thai who naturalised as British and changed his or her gender officially while living in the UK.   The passport office would no doubt tell them to go and change their gender in their Thai ID card and passport before applying for a British passport. Since  this is impossible under Thai law, their only option might be to change their gender back again in the UK, possibly transforming an officially opposite sex marriage into a same sex one.    

I doubt that would affect many people as the next generation of British passports are more than likely going to be genderless.

[7by7]

11 hours ago, Drago said:

I doubt that would affect many people as the next generation of British passports are more than likely going to be genderless.

Not quite.

 

The result of a case currently going through the courts could mean that people would have the option of a gender neutral passport if the wished. An option already enjoyed in some other countries.

 

Campaigner takes gender-neutral passport case to High Court

Quote

The Home Office is facing a challenge to provide gender-neutral passports to UK citizens at a High Court hearing on Wednesday.

Campaigner Christie Elan-Cane, who has given evidence to Parliament about transgender equality, believes the current passport application process in Britain is inappropriate.

The push for a judicial review comes after Canada last month became the 10th country to offer citizens gender-neutral travel documents. Ireland, Australia, Denmark, Germany, Malta, New Zealand, Pakistan and India had already done so.

Under the UK’s current process, applicants must state whether they are male or female. If the new proposals were introduced, the option “X”, which stands for unspecified, would be added to the M or F options.

 

Maybe someone with the funds and/or backing could start a similar case over this stupid and pointless name rule for dual nationals?

 

How about a Parliamentary petition? 10,000 signatures will get a response, 100,000 and it will be debated in Parliament. Might not change anything, but get 10,000 signatures and at least HMPO or their masters at the Home Office would have to come up with some sort of explanation for this rule.

 

 

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Not quite.

 

The result of a case currently going through the courts could mean that people would have the option of a gender neutral passport if the wished. An option already enjoyed in some other countries.

 

Campaigner takes gender-neutral passport case to High Court

 

Maybe someone with the funds and/or backing could start a similar case over this stupid and pointless name rule for dual nationals?

 

How about a Parliamentary petition? 10,000 signatures will get a response, 100,000 and it will be debated in Parliament. Might not change anything, but get 10,000 signatures and at least HMPO or their masters at the Home Office would have to come up with some sort of explanation for this rule.

 

 

 

I think the problem is that HMPO slyly and deliberately take people by surprise when they come to renew their passports.  Most probably have to find a way to comply as quickly as possible, however inconvenient because they need a British passport.  Then once its done its done.  I guess it is part of Theresa May's unenviable legacy from her 6 years at the Home Office.   

[MaeJoMTB]

On 5/30/2017 at 1:24 PM, Arkady said:

Yes and, as a dual national, she would not be eligible to apply online

You said her Filipino nationality had automatically been revoked.

Therefore she wasn't of dual nationality.

Edited October 13, 2017 by MaeJoMTB

[Arkady]

10 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

You said her Filipino nationality had automatically been revoked.

Therefore she wasn't of dual nationality.

 

The situation for Filipinos is that their Filipino nationality gets technically revoked when they are naturalised as aliens but there is a process for them to get it reinstated through an oath of allegiance.  Thus she was temporarily deFilipinoed with reinstatement pending.

[blackcab]

There is one other option. The Thai wife keeps her surname and the non-Thai husband changes his surname to match her (Thai) surname.

 

If the wife gains dual British nationality then there will be no problems as her Thai name and her married name match.

[Arkady]

17 minutes ago, blackcab said:

There is one other option. The Thai wife keeps her surname and the non-Thai husband changes his surname to match her (Thai) surname.

 

If the wife gains dual British nationality then there will be no problems as her Thai name and her married name match.

 

You can plan like this, if you about the problem years in advance but the problem is that most people are taken by surprise when they apply for a passport.  If you have the luxury to plan ahead the wife can change her name to husband's surname in Thailand very easily and cheaply. Most of these couples are living in the UK, in order for the wife to get British nationality, and I would think they would be better off with a farang name in that case. Imagine having to keep explaining why you have a lengthy Thai surname, as a Brit living in the UK, and having to spell it out over the phone.  

[Eff1n2ret]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 5:58 PM, Arkady said:

 

I read on another site a complaint by a German who had lived in the UK for 30 years and had taken British citizenship under a name like John Smith that he felt allowed him to blend in to British society better than his birth name.  When the time came to renew his British passport he was forced to change back to his birth name of Johann Schecklegrueber or some such, since he wanted to keep his German nationality in view of Brexit and was not allowed to change to his British name in his German ID card and passport.  There have also been a lot of people who had to cancel holidays and business trips because they could not get this sort of nonsense done in time and no general warning has been issued by HMPO.  Outrageous arrogance and disdain for the citizenry in a country that openly allows and even encourages dual or multiple citizenship.  

Following my wife's recent passport application I wrote to HMPO to point out, inter alia, the defects in their published guidance to dual nationals. The relevant part of their reply is as follows:-

 

I have passed on your feedback regarding our guidance to the relevant department.  If a situation does exist were someone is unable to comply with the one name policy due to the legal requirements of another country, additional options are available, however these are only available in specific circumstances.

 

What that means is anybody's guess.
 

[OJAS]

3 hours ago, Eff1n2ret said:

Following my wife's recent passport application I wrote to HMPO to point out, inter alia, the defects in their published guidance to dual nationals. The relevant part of their reply is as follows:-

 

I have passed on your feedback regarding our guidance to the relevant department.  If a situation does exist were someone is unable to comply with the one name policy due to the legal requirements of another country, additional options are available, however these are only available in specific circumstances.

 

What that means is anybody's guess.
 

Sounds to me like a variant of the standard HMG mantra of "each case will be determined on the basis of its particular circumstances" - which, in practice, will probably mean excessive delays in the issuing of new passports while these "particular circumstances" are analysed in depth and detail in the corridors of power, and travel plans having to be postponed or even cancelled as a result.

[Arkady]

33 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Sounds to me like a variant of the standard HMG mantra of "each case will be determined on the basis of its particular circumstances" - which, in practice, will probably mean excessive delays in the issuing of new passports while these "particular circumstances" are analysed in depth and detail in the corridors of power, and travel plans having to be postponed or even cancelled as a result.

 

Yes. It is quite likely to involve a lengthy review followed by a terse reply to the effect that the rules is the rules and there is nothing they can to bend them in your particular case.  I hope I am proved wrong.

[MikeSJC]

Happy to come across this thread, but also horrified that we have come to a point where it is still necessary...

 

My situation is a bit different but I am still being driven nuts by HMPO... 

 

I am a UK citizen living in the US with dual nationality (UK & Canadian). I have never had any problems renewing my UK passport (it has been renewed 3 or 4 times), until this last week - now I have run into a brick wall.

 

I was born in the UK, my birth certificate is in my full name MICHAEL JAMES XXXXXX and my UK passport has also always been in the same full name.

 

Just submitted the application to renew my UK passport and, as per recent changes, submitted a copy of my Canadian passport (which is in the name MICHAEL XXXXXXXX.

 

Shocked and upset that HMPO is refusing to renew my UK passport on the grounds that my Canadian passport is showing a different name...

 

I have not changed my name by deed-poll, I don't even have the issue of married vs. maiden names... What exactly constitutes a "DIFFERENT name"... ?

 

They asked for a copy of my US Green Card - I sent this and of course to confuse matters, it's in the name MICHAEL J. XXXXXX

 

They are now telling me that they will only consider renewing my UK passport if I get my Canadian passport re-issued in the name of MICHAEL J. XXXXXX... 

 

<deleted>...

 

As far as I am concerned, this is not an issue with using different names at all... After being alive for 50 years and living in 3 different countries, we all have docs that are in SLIGHTLY different names - we often have no control over whether an authority issues a document with a full middle name, middle initial, or no middle name at all...

 

Following some advice on another thread, I have just sent a Sworn Affidavit, together with a number of Notarized ID documents , to HMPO in the hope that I can persuade them to renew my UK passport...

 

I wish everybody luck, particularly those having to deal with married vs maiden name issues - I understand 'some' of the reasoning behind recent policy changes, but the way many examiners are interpreting the policy, seems totally inept...

 

Thanks

Mike

Edited November 29, 2017 by Arkady
Removed posters surname

[MUSTYJACK]

Does the requirement to have the same surname on both passports apply  only for those dual nationals applying for their first  UK passport, or does it apply for those wishing to renew their existing UK passport at expiry date time?

[Arkady]

18 minutes ago, MUSTYJACK said:

Does the requirement to have the same surname on both passports apply  only for those dual nationals applying for their first  UK passport, or does it apply for those wishing to renew their existing UK passport at expiry date time?

You need to have the same first middle and surnames whenever you apply for a British passport, whether it is your first or subsequent ones.

[evadgib]

MODS: feel free to move this if there's a better place for it.

 

"The online passport renewal service, which takes an average of 10 minutes to complete, has previously only been available to people over the age of 26.

An HMPO survey found that 63 percent of people would prefer to renew their passport online. Over 300,000 16 to 25 year olds renew their passport each year, the expansion means that they will all be able to benefit from the service which provides an easy, convenient and secure service to British nationals across the globe".

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/ten-minute-passport-renewal-service-extends-to-16-to-25-year-olds

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by evadgib

[nellyp]

My son's name on his Uk passport has 2 middle names, but the Thai passport only allows for 1. Do you think this will be a problem? As his British birth certificate shows 2 middle names I do not see how I can alter that, and it seems impossible to get his Thai passport altered as they do not allow the 2 middle names.

[OJAS]

22 hours ago, nellyp said:

My son's name on his Uk passport has 2 middle names, but the Thai passport only allows for 1. Do you think this will be a problem? As his British birth certificate shows 2 middle names I do not see how I can alter that, and it seems impossible to get his Thai passport altered as they do not allow the 2 middle names.

Might be worth your while seeking clarification from HMPO in the UK on this point.

Contact info is here: https://www.gov.uk/passport-advice-line

[OJAS]

On 12/9/2017 at 4:54 PM, evadgib said:

"The online passport renewal service, which takes an average of 10 minutes to complete, has previously only been available to people over the age of 26."

But not to those living in Thailand, though 

[nellyp]

57 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Might be worth your while seeking clarification from HMPO in the UK on this point.

Contact info is here: https://www.gov.uk/passport-advice-line

I rang them up yesterday. they said I would need a letter from the Thai Embassy or Passport office stating that it is the truth that the passport office would not put 2 middle names on the passport. Looks like this is going to get complicated

 

[samran]

On 26/02/2018 at 3:53 PM, nellyp said:

My son's name on his Uk passport has 2 middle names, but the Thai passport only allows for 1. Do you think this will be a problem? As his British birth certificate shows 2 middle names I do not see how I can alter that, and it seems impossible to get his Thai passport altered as they do not allow the 2 middle names.

My Thai passport has my two middle names on it. It reflects what is written on my Thai birth certificate and Thai ID card. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by samran

[nellyp]

13 hours ago, nellyp said:

I rang them up yesterday. they said I would need a letter from the Thai Embassy or Passport office stating that it is the truth that the passport office would not put 2 middle names on the passport. Looks like this is going to get complicated

 

Embassy will not give me a letter and said passport office won' to either. I have to change the name on the tabian ban and get a new passport. No idea how British passport office will look at all this. I have to show all passports. Now he will have 2 Thai passports with different names 

[nellyp]

2 hours ago, samran said:

My Thai passport has my two middle names on it. It reflects what is written on my Thai birth certificate and Thai ID card. 

When we did the birth certificate for my son they would not let me put 2 middle names on the certificate. They made me choose 1. As we used the birth certificate for his Thai passport, perhaps that was where things got messed up 

[OJAS]

8 hours ago, nellyp said:

When we did the birth certificate for my son they would not let me put 2 middle names on the certificate. They made me choose 1. As we used the birth certificate for his Thai passport, perhaps that was where things got messed up 

I therefore find it puzzling as to how you managed to get your son's middle name included in his British passport, bearing in mind that the certified English translation of his birth certificate which you presumably had to provide in support of the application you made on his behalf didn't include it either, I take it!

[nellyp]

2 hours ago, OJAS said:

I therefore find it puzzling as to how you managed to get your son's middle name included in his British passport, bearing in mind that the certified English translation of his birth certificate which you presumably had to provide in support of the application you made on his behalf didn't include it either, I take it!

This was because we had a British birth certificate as my son was born in the UK. Therefore no translation was necessary. The complication has arisen (I believe) because they refused to put 2 middle names on the Thai certificate. They have now refused to alter his tabien baan at the Ampur so I have to write a letter to the passport office explaining all this with no confirmation from the Ampur or the Thai passport office as they will not write letters stating that they have refused to amend anything or even confirm that the Thai rules are not letting them alter his passport or tabian baan

[Arkady]

17 hours ago, nellyp said:

This was because we had a British birth certificate as my son was born in the UK. Therefore no translation was necessary. The complication has arisen (I believe) because they refused to put 2 middle names on the Thai certificate. They have now refused to alter his tabien baan at the Ampur so I have to write a letter to the passport office explaining all this with no confirmation from the Ampur or the Thai passport office as they will not write letters stating that they have refused to amend anything or even confirm that the Thai rules are not letting them alter his passport or tabian baan

 

My Thai ID card has my two middle names on it but they are classified as part of a lengthy first name including the spaces. I registered the Thai spelling of my name when I got PR before the law was changed to allow middle names. So they just classified the whole lot as a first name.  It seemed easiest to let sleeping dogs lie and that has also guaranteed that I have what looks like the same name in both passports, since nobody knows about the long first name.

[OJAS]

18 hours ago, nellyp said:

This was because we had a British birth certificate as my son was born in the UK. Therefore no translation was necessary. The complication has arisen (I believe) because they refused to put 2 middle names on the Thai certificate. They have now refused to alter his tabien baan at the Ampur so I have to write a letter to the passport office explaining all this with no confirmation from the Ampur or the Thai passport office as they will not write letters stating that they have refused to amend anything or even confirm that the Thai rules are not letting them alter his passport or tabian baan

In that case, I would strongly suggest that you set out the issues with which you are faced by completing the HMPO enquiry form referred to in the link which I posted in #47 above. Far better, I think, to get a definitive view from HMPO on this point in writing, rather than relying on what they tell you over a crackly phone line from the UK.

 

However, if HMPO, for their inscrutable reasons, stand their ground on this issue, then the only course of action which would appear to be open to you would be to seek a formal renouncement of your son's middle name(s) in the UK by following the procedure set out at https://www.gov.uk/change-name-deed-poll/change-a-childs-name. I quite accept that you and your son's mother would almost certainly view such a course of action as unpalatable in principle - quite apart from the considerable effort and expense to which you would be put in achieving it - but I fear that this might prove to be the only way of meeting but one of a number of pointlessly stupid bureaucratic requirements which HMPO have chosen to inflict on those renewing their UK passports from Thailand in recent times.

[OJAS]

3 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

My Thai ID card has my two middle names on it but they are classified as part of a lengthy first name including the spaces. I registered the Thai spelling of my name when I got PR before the law was changed to allow middle names. So they just classified the whole lot as a first name.  It seemed easiest to let sleeping dogs lie and that has also guaranteed that I have what looks like the same name in both passports, since nobody knows about the long first name.

I strongly suspect that what we are essentially talking about in this particular instance is some fundamental conflict between Thai inconsistency on the one hand and British intransigence on the other - with potentially unfortunate (to put it mildly) consequences for those like nellyp who are caught up in the middle.

Edited March 1, 2018 by OJAS

[nellyp]

On 3/1/2018 at 4:01 AM, OJAS said:

In that case, I would strongly suggest that you set out the issues with which you are faced by completing the HMPO enquiry form referred to in the link which I posted in #47 above. Far better, I think, to get a definitive view from HMPO on this point in writing, rather than relying on what they tell you over a crackly phone line from the UK.

 

However, if HMPO, for their inscrutable reasons, stand their ground on this issue, then the only course of action which would appear to be open to you would be to seek a formal renouncement of your son's middle name(s) in the UK by following the procedure set out at https://www.gov.uk/change-name-deed-poll/change-a-childs-name. I quite accept that you and your son's mother would almost certainly view such a course of action as unpalatable in principle - quite apart from the considerable effort and expense to which you would be put in achieving it - but I fear that this might prove to be the only way of meeting but one of a number of pointlessly stupid bureaucratic requirements which HMPO have chosen to inflict on those renewing their UK passports from Thailand in recent times.

Thank you very much for this. I have sent off the enquiery form and I am looking into the deep poll suggestion. It real;y is beyond belief that I may need to change his name to simply get him back into the country, when his British passport has his full name. We are already supplying proof of ID through a counter signature, and can supply photos of him growing up and changing appearance etc. It is even further beyond belief that the Thai authorities will not simply give us a letter stating the rules that will not allow us to change his name on the Thai documents. Do they even have such a thing as deed poll in Thailand? After all people seem to change their names in Thailand and even my wife does not have the name she was born with

[nellyp]

Just looking at the deed poll application. This also becomes complex as I am in the Uk and the wife is in Thailand, but we both need to have documents signed by a solicitor and have witnesses for the forms. This could take me months to organise

Nightmare

[OJAS]

11 hours ago, nellyp said:

Just looking at the deed poll application. This also becomes complex as I am in the Uk and the wife is in Thailand, but we both need to have documents signed by a solicitor and have witnesses for the forms. This could take me months to organise

Nightmare

And all this just to satisfy a completely pointless HMPO bureaucratic requirement!