Police rush to London Bridge after reports of van hitting pedestrians

[7by7]

20 hours ago, vogie said:

21 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

The families of the Manchester victims that I have seen interviewed have expressed opinions far closer to the post you are quoting, than the many extremist Islamophobic views on this thread.

If one of your siblings had been murdered this way BB, do you think you would be so apathetic?

 I can't speak for brewsterbudgen; but I hope that I would have the courage and dignity of Mellissa McMullan, whose brother James was killed in the terrible attacks last Saturday, as reported on Sky News and most other broadcast and print media in the UK

Quote

"While our pain will never diminish it is important for us to all carry on with our lives in direct opposition to those who would try to destroy us.

"And remember that hatred is the refuge of small-minded individuals and will only breed more. This is not a course we will follow despite our loss.

 

And you have the nerve to call such views apathetic!!! I dare you to say that to her face, and to the face of the families of the other victims, most of whom have expressed similar views.

[Morch]

22 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Again, you seem completely resistant to evidence that there is plenty being done to fight terrorists. Actually, the best way for the public to fight terrorists would be to react as little as possible. Like trolls on this website, terrorists live, or rather die for the fear and hostility they incite.  The number of people they are killing in the UK in relation to the entire population of 65 million is just a pinprick.

So go ahead. So go ahead. Keep reacting the way you do.  You may not think you are on their side, but in effect you are.  For the terrorists, with enemies like you, who needs friends?

 

Wonder if you gave much thought to the "pinprick" comment before posting. Not the most appropriate, to put it mildly.

 

And no, reacting as little as possible is neither the best way nor a plausible one. Trolls, even on this website, are essentially harmless. People blowing up kids in concerts, or stabbing people at pubs aren't. Sticks and stones may hurt my bones and all that.

[7by7]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

How does insisting such people are "unIslamic", "do not represent" and so on, contribute to de-radicalization ? Wholesale smearing of all Muslims is wrong. But wholesale denial of such elements being integral doesn't help much either.

 

 

 Such labelling by myself and others on internet forums does nothing.

 

But when such labels come from Muslim leaders, especially Imams and other religious leaders, it can have an enormous effect on those being targeted by the terrorists for recruitment..

 

More than 130 imams refuse to perform Islamic burials for Manchester and London attackers.

[transam]

7 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

By the same token, the Jewish and Christian bibles are open to their interpreters, as the dismal history of Christianity (jews not so much if only because they were mostly powerless unless you treat some rather dismal episodes in the Jewish bible as actual history) and war waged in its name, shows.

We do know that for most of its history, Islam civilization was far more tolerant of Jews (and Christans) than was Christian civilization of Jews and Muslims. In the retaking of Spain, the Christians murdered 300,000 jews and then expelled another 300,000. Who took them in? The muslim Turks who also allowed the Orthodox Church to flourish in the Balkans. And Christian communities also flourished in the mideast for most of Islam's history.

OFF TOPIC.......

[transam]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

 

More than 130 imams refuse to perform Islamic burials for Manchester and London attackers.

What about the rest.............Do you have that "insider" info.....?

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Wonder if you gave much thought to the "pinprick" comment before posting. Not the most appropriate, to put it mildly.

 

And no, reacting as little as possible is neither the best way nor a plausible one. Trolls, even on this website, are essentially harmless. People blowing up kids in concerts, or stabbing people at pubs aren't. Sticks and stones may hurt my bones and all that.

I am looking at this from a global standpoint. If there is a war going on, as so many of the posters on here maintain, then there will be casualties.  And as some terrorism expert pointed out just yesterday in the NY Times, the very fact that these people are committing terrorist attacks in europe may actually be a sign of success in the war against Islamist extremism. That's because in the past these 3 probably would have gone to join Isis but now that Isis is in a massive retreat, this is their only option.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Such labelling by myself and others on internet forums does nothing.

 

But when such labels come from Muslim leaders, especially Imams and other religious leaders, it can have an enormous effect on those being targeted by the terrorists for recruitment..

 

More than 130 imams refuse to perform Islamic burials for Manchester and London attackers.

If it doesn't matter, why hotly insist on the matter on each and every topic?

 

Enormous effect how? Are there less potential recruits? Are there less attacks?

 

I should think that a sizeable portion of the sales pitch would incorporate disregarding such religious leaders and their condemnations as evidence to themselves being "unIslamic".

 

To bring up something from another post, most modern people are able to accept that there are various schools of thought within a religion. Denial, without even the power to excommunicate is rather lame.

 

 

[7by7]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

What about the rest.............Do you have that "insider" info.....?

 Insider info? No, I only have the info published in many media that more than 130 Imams have  refused to conduct Muslim funerals for these murderous scum and are urging all Imams to do the same

Quote

"We will not perform the traditional Islamic funeral prayer for the perpetrators and we also urge fellow imams and religious authorities to withdraw such a privilege. This is because such indefensible actions are completely at odds with the lofty teachings of Islam," said the statement.

.

Hopefully, all Imams will follow their urging.

 

[transam]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 Insider info? No, I only have the info published in many media that more than 130 Imams have  refused to conduct Muslim funerals for these murderous scum and are urging all Imams to do the same

.

Hopefully, all Imams will follow their urging.

 

Unless I have missed a reply from you, have you watched any vids yet regarding the many radicals doing their stuff on the streets in the UK.....?

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

I am looking at this from a global standpoint. If there is a war going on, as so many of the posters on here maintain, then there will be casualties.  And as some terrorism expert pointed out just yesterday in the NY Times, the very fact that these people are committing terrorist attacks in europe may actually be a sign of success in the war against Islamist extremism. That's because in the past these 3 probably would have gone to join Isis but now that Isis is in a massive retreat, this is their only option.

 

It still doesn't make the "pinprick" comment any less callous, though.

 

And it still doesn't relate to the "react as little as possible" prescription.

 

No idea which expert is cited, but it is not exactly surprising that ISIS will turn to such attacks. It was both anticipated long ago, and communicated by ISIS themselves. Wouldn't know that it's much of a victory, or that a victory in any absolute sense is in the cards.

 

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, Morch said:

 

It still doesn't make the "pinprick" comment any less callous, though.

 

And it still doesn't relate to the "react as little as possible" prescription.

 

No idea which expert is cited, but it is not exactly surprising that ISIS will turn to such attacks. It was both anticipated long ago, and communicated by ISIS themselves. Wouldn't know that it's much of a victory, or that a victory in any absolute sense is in the cards.

 

 It's questionable that Isis really had anything material to do with the attack at all whatever their claims may be. If you all need is a truck and some knives to stage one of these attacks, why need Isis be even involved in its planning? It's simply not reasonable to think that zero casualties is a reasonable or attainable goal. Unless you want to turn your country into a version of North Korea.

As for my remarks being callous, maybe so. But even worse, they reflected a reasonably objective evaluation of the situation.  And most of the people whose tender feelings I outraged, to judge by their response, were inditing some very bloodthirsty comments. It's hard to care much about the feeling of such people who capitalize on every situation that arises, no matter how tragic, to vent such repulsive rants.

[7by7]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

14 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Such labelling by myself and others on internet forums does nothing.

 

But when such labels come from Muslim leaders, especially Imams and other religious leaders, it can have an enormous effect on those being targeted by the terrorists for recruitment..

 

More than 130 imams refuse to perform Islamic burials for Manchester and London attackers.

If it doesn't matter, why hotly insist on the matter on each and every topic?

 

Enormous effect how? Are there less potential recruits? Are there less attacks?

 

I should think that a sizeable portion of the sales pitch would incorporate disregarding such religious leaders and their condemnations as evidence to themselves being "unIslamic".

 

To bring up something from another post, most modern people are able to accept that there are various schools of thought within a religion. Denial, without even the power to excommunicate is rather lame.

 

 

The Islamaphobes on this forum continuously post that the terrorists represent Islam because Muslims do not condemn them, do not protest against them.

 

As part of the debate, myself and others show that, in fact Muslims across the world do condemn the terrorists, do protest against them. A fact usually ignored by the Islamaphobes, unfortunately.

 

Of course, such debate on this forum will have little effect in the real world.

 

As to the effect of this condemnation on potential recruits to the terrorists ranks; who knows? But if it has dissuaded just one, then in my opinion it has had a positive effect.

 

As for this latest denial of a Muslim funeral to terrorists, a positive move which may very well have an increased effect in dissuading potential recruits.

 

Yes, the terrorists do try and persuade those they have targeted for recruitment that their way is the true way, even though the actual leaders of ISIS are motivated more by politics than religion. 

 

Surely you are not suggesting that the Muslim population, especially religious leaders, do nothing to counter these arguments?

 

 

[7by7]

16 minutes ago, transam said:

Unless I have missed a reply from you, have you watched any vids yet regarding the many radicals doing their stuff on the streets in the UK.....?

 I replied to the content of such videos when the first was posted; I have nothing to add to that reply.

 

As you have forgotten it, here it is again

23 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 Unlike the majority of self appointed experts on life in the UK posting here, I actually live in the UK. So I can't watch it as it is blocked in the UK by Channel 4 on copyright grounds.

 

But based upon poster's comments, I can guess the contents.

 

I have never denied that there is a major problem with radicalisation among British Muslims, especially amongst young men.

 

I have never denied that this radicalisation leads some into joining terrorist organisations and then committing terrorist acts of murder etc.

 

It is a problem which needs to be solved, and solved urgently.

 

The UK government's Channel programme is designed to identify those at risk of being drawn into radicalisation and terrorism early enough to lead them away. There are various Muslim charities doing the same.

 

The success of these programmes is, of course, hard to quantify.

 

But the problems of Islamic radicalisation, extremism and terrorism in the UK, or anywhere else, will only be solved with the help of the majority of the Muslim population, it will not be solved by demonising and attacking that majority!

 So what is your point?

[brewsterbudgen]

>> Most people can grasp that there are more that one flavor within a religion.
... that's just the point...most racists can't grasp anything other than blind unthinking hatred, and people like you only pander to that by bandying about slogans.
 
But the very fact that you are intelligent enough to know the difference between Islamic terrorism and Islamist terrorism, yet disingenuously insist with faux indignation on using the former pretending there is no difference, betrays your hidden agenda.

I prefer the late Muhammad Ali's take on the subject...
"I am a Muslim and there is nothing Islamic about killing innocent people in Paris, San Bernardino, or anywhere else in the world. True Muslims know that the ruthless violence of so called Islamic jihadists goes against the very tenets of our religion.
We as Muslims have to stand up to those who use Islam to advance their own personal agenda."
 
https://www.indy100.com/article/remembering-when-muhammad-ali-destroyed-donald-trump-in-just-132-words--bk3pFYAimW

Such a shame he's not around any more, for many reasons. But in the current situation, his voice of reason may well have had a positive effect in calming down tensions and silencing ignorant talk.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

The Islamaphobes on this forum continuously post that the terrorists represent Islam because Muslims do not condemn them, do not protest against them.

 

As part of the debate, myself and others show that, in fact Muslims across the world do condemn the terrorists, do protest against them. A fact usually ignored by the Islamaphobes, unfortunately.

 

Of course, such debate on this forum will have little effect in the real world.

 

As to the effect of this condemnation on potential recruits to the terrorists ranks; who knows? But if it has dissuaded just one, then in my opinion it has had a positive effect.

 

As for this latest denial of a Muslim funeral to terrorists, a positive move which may very well have an increased effect in dissuading potential recruits.

 

Yes, the terrorists do try and persuade those they have targeted for recruitment that their way is the true way, even though the actual leaders of ISIS are motivated more by politics than religion. 

 

Surely you are not suggesting that the Muslim population, especially religious leaders, do nothing to counter these arguments?

 

 

Thousands and thousands of Muslims are killing all around the world because of THEIR interpretation of the book MUSLIMS follow......

 

You ever heard of Jehovah Witness followers.....?.......You know, the folk who follow THEIR interpretation   of the Bible...SAME SAME......These folk will let their kids die if blood is needed in an operation...

 

They ARE Christians.......Nut jobs, but they follow a Book written by an earthbound bloke...SAME..SAME..

[transam]

4 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 I replied to the content of such videos when the first was posted; I have nothing to add to that reply.

 

As you have forgotten it, here it is again

 So what is your point?

So someone like you who protects a religion that does kill, and knows everything about it, CANNOT find or want to look at that religions bad guys in the UK cos it does not fit in with your mindset or upset it....

 

[7by7]

Very interesting column in yesterday's Standard from Simon Jenkins. Not a man whose opinions I always share, but I think he makes some very valid points here.

 

Simon Jenkins: Our best defence must be to attack extremism at its roots

Quote

Londoners are sensible enough to accept there are things that can be done, and things that cannot. The three knife attacks in London in four years should be seen in context. Their severity is nowhere near that of the IRA campaigns of the 1970s and 1990s, when there were fatal explosions every other month. In today’s London some innocent person is stabbed to death every week — in one week in April there were six deaths. 

Terrorists are different in claiming divine inspiration for their deeds. But they are criminals and their crimes are no different for the nature of their motivation. Just as the IRA were denied the glamour of “political status”, so too should the jihadists be.

 

[vogie]

49 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 I can't speak for brewsterbudgen; but I hope that I would have the courage and dignity of Mellissa McMullan, whose brother James was killed in the terrible attacks last Saturday, as reported on Sky News and most other broadcast and print media in the UK

 

And you have the nerve to call such views apathetic!!! I dare you to say that to her face, and to the face of the families of the other victims, most of whom have expressed similar views.

I really don't care what you think of me, all I know is what most people think about you! I had the decency to write and tell you that I would not exchange dialogue with you, please show me some respect and do not exchange dialoge with me. You know you can't resist calling me racial, I say again, it is better to view but say nothing!

[transam]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Very interesting column in yesterday's Standard from Simon Jenkins. Not a man whose opinions I always share, but I think he makes some very valid points here.

 

Simon Jenkins: Our best defence must be to attack extremism at its roots

 

The IRA were all let out of jail.......

[7by7]

6 minutes ago, transam said:

Thousands and thousands of Muslims are killing all around the world because of THEIR interpretation of the book MUSLIMS follow......

 

You ever heard of Jehovah Witness followers.....?.......You know, the folk who follow THEIR interpretation   of the Bible...SAME SAME......These folk will let their kids die if blood is needed in an operation...

 

They ARE Christians.......Nut jobs, but they follow a Book written by an earthbound bloke...SAME..SAME..

 Your point?

 

Thousands and thousands of Muslims may be killing around the world because of their interpretation of the Koran; but that still leaves well over a billion who are not!

 

Not sure why you have brought Jehovah's Witnesses into this, especially as you constantly shout "OFF TOPIC" when comparisons are made between Islam and other religions!

 

BTW, you are wrong; Jehovah's witnesses do not consider themselves to be Christians as they do not consider Jesus to be divine.

 

It seems that your ignorance of Islam extends to other religions as well!

[dick dasterdly]

43 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Such labelling by myself and others on internet forums does nothing.

 

But when such labels come from Muslim leaders, especially Imams and other religious leaders, it can have an enormous effect on those being targeted by the terrorists for recruitment..

 

More than 130 imams refuse to perform Islamic burials for Manchester and London attackers.

 

34 minutes ago, Morch said:

If it doesn't matter, why hotly insist on the matter on each and every topic?

 

Enormous effect how? Are there less potential recruits? Are there less attacks?

 

I should think that a sizeable portion of the sales pitch would incorporate disregarding such religious leaders and their condemnations as evidence to themselves being "unIslamic".

 

To bring up something from another post, most modern people are able to accept that there are various schools of thought within a religion. Denial, without even the power to excommunicate is rather lame.

 

 

Probably a good time for the first poster to admit he was extremely callous referring to the deaths being 'pin-pricks' - and the other poster to admit that he's biased against moslems, whilst pretending this is not the case....

 

Assuming its true that moslem leaders have refused to perform islamic burials for the murderers - then this must be a 'good thing', and not just treated as irrelevant.

[7by7]

9 minutes ago, transam said:

The IRA were all let out of jail.......

Those interned without trial were, those convicted of criminal offences served their sentences.

 

With the obvious exceptions of those whose convictions were overturned on appeal.

[transam]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 Your point?

 

Thousands and thousands of Muslims may be killing around the world because of their interpretation of the Koran; but that still leaves well over a billion who are not!

 

Not sure why you have brought Jehovah's Witnesses into this, especially as you constantly shout "OFF TOPIC" when comparisons are made between Islam and other religions!

 

BTW, you are wrong; Jehovah's witnesses do not consider themselves to be Christians as they do not consider Jesus to be divine.

 

It seems that your ignorance of Islam extends to other religions as well!

As usual you are dodging......You are cornered....As usual....You come up with zillions of links to good guy Muslims in the UK but can't find any on bad guy Muslims in the UK.....Tut, Tut.....Why is that....? 

[7by7]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Probably a good time for the first poster to admit he was extremely callous referring to the deaths being 'pin-pricks' - and

I am the first poster you quoted, so presumably that remark is addressed to me?

 

I did not call the deaths pin pricks!

[transam]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Probably a good time for the first poster to admit he was extremely callous referring to the deaths being 'pin-pricks' - and the other poster to admit that he's biased against moslems, whilst pretending this is not the case....

 

Assuming its true that moslem leaders have refused to perform islamic burials for the murderers - then this must be a 'good thing', and not just treated as irrelevant.

Let's wait and see WHO buries them.............

[ilostmypassword]

14 minutes ago, vogie said:

I really don't care what you think of me, all I know is what most people think about you! I had the decency to write and tell you that I would not exchange dialogue with you, please show me some respect and do not exchange dialoge with me. You know you can't resist calling me racial, I say again, it is better to view but say nothing!

There is a function on thaivisa called "ignore." Since your feeling are so tender, it might be wise to use it.

[7by7]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

As usual you are dodging......You are cornered....As usual....You come up with zillions of links to good guy Muslims in the UK but can't find any on bad guy Muslims in the UK.....Tut, Tut.....Why is that....? 

Pathetic.

 

I repeat, I have never denied that there are Islamic extremists in the UK.

 

I have never denied there are Islamic terrorists in the UK.

 

Why do you find that so difficult to comprehend?

Edited June 7, 2017 by 7by7
typo

[dick dasterdly]

21 minutes ago, transam said:

Thousands and thousands of Muslims are killing all around the world because of THEIR interpretation of the book MUSLIMS follow......

 

You ever heard of Jehovah Witness followers.....?.......You know, the folk who follow THEIR interpretation   of the Bible...SAME SAME......These folk will let their kids die if blood is needed in an operation...

 

They ARE Christians.......Nut jobs, but they follow a Book written by an earthbound bloke...SAME..SAME..

First time I've heard jehovah's witnesses compared to moslem terrorists!

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, 7by7 said:

I am the first poster you quoted, so presumably that remark is addressed to me?

 

I did not call the deaths pin pricks!

Have to admit I can't remember who said the deaths were pin-pricks.

 

If it wasn't you, I can only apologise.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Pathetic.

 

I repeat, I have never denied that there are Islamic extremists in the UK.

 

I have never denied there are Islamic terrorists in the UK.

 

Why do you find that so difficult to comprehend?

Pathetic eh, YOU have stated you have NOT watched the UK Muslim bad guy vids because you cannot...Pathetic, you have all the answers on good guys but cannot see in REAL LIFE what the bad guy Muslims are up to in the UK..........Good grief.........