Get workpermit without degree, how to do?

[Backpacker1990]

Hi guys(or girls), 

 

Currently I'm living in Thailand and now I get a job offer to be a teacher. The problem is, I don't have a degree. 

 

The school really wants me to work with them, I know some of the teachers over there and they can't find a farang easily cause it's in a rural area. I know there are some ways to get a work permit without a degree and that is that they hire me as a trainer or a teacher assistant. 

 

I can't find much information about this. Anyone some idea's/advice how the rules are at the moment? 

 

Please, only helpful information and thanks in advance for all the advice! 

 

Edit: I'm on a Non-O multiple entry right now. 

Edited June 12, 2017 by Backpacker1990

[tonray]

What does the school say ? If they are willing to hire you without a degree AND you want the job, what is the issue ?

[Backpacker1990]

The issue is that they don't know exactly how to get me a WP. I'm the first foreigner to work for them so try to figure out how to get me correct on the books. 

[tonray]

4 minutes ago, Backpacker1990 said:

The issue is that they don't know exactly how to get me a WP. I'm the first foreigner to work for them so try to figure out how to get me correct on the books. 

You already know the answer, you cannot be hired legally as a teacher, but can take a job with a different title. 

[Backpacker1990]

5 minutes ago, tonray said:

You already know the answer, you cannot be hired legally as a teacher, but can take a job with a different title. 

Will that be safe if the immigration comes to check? I mean, I'm teaching a class alone what makes me a teacher instead of an assistant.... Can they make problems about that? 

[tonray]

11 minutes ago, Backpacker1990 said:

Will that be safe if the immigration comes to check? I mean, I'm teaching a class alone what makes me a teacher instead of an assistant.... Can they make problems about that? 

I would not worry about it to that degree. But if the school wants to make it as authentic as possible your salary will be lower than what a standard teacher in that area would make...that would legitimize your status. If they pay you scale wage (same as other foreign teachers in same area) then you might have an issue...but the likelihood of immigration investigating a proper teacher assistant with WP are slim to none. They can't even find the teachers without permits let alone determining whether a teacher is teaching or assisting.

[lemonjelly]

Side note: if you're on a non-o visa based on marriage; you can get a work permit with this visa, meaning you only have to deal with the labor dept rather than the labor dept and immigration office.

[Pungdo]

I have a mate that has been teaching here for years, he always gets a work permit somehow and he doesn't have a degree

[scorecard]

10 hours ago, Backpacker1990 said:

The issue is that they don't know exactly how to get me a WP. I'm the first foreigner to work for them so try to figure out how to get me correct on the books. 

 

There's a thread at the start of the TV site with heaps of information and form downloads in both Thai and English.

 

Note that the wording / the employment requirement etc., for education institutes / job descriptions / minimum salary etc., is a little different from say an engineer position in an engineering company. 

 

I have a WP from a Thai university. For uni's there are two possibilities:

 

a. Full employment on a one year renewable written contract with small salary, plus additional paid teaching hours -  well accepted by the labour dept.

 

b. Part-time employment on the basis that the uni. guarantees, in writing, to give me at least 4 courses per semester - well accepted by the labour dept.

 

I realize your not talking about a university, I'm just sharing that for schools the approach is a bit different.

 

In reality the application form is not difficult to complete. The documents which must be included from the employer and basic everyday forms which all schools / employers use all the time for various business situations.

 

The hardest part is the wording in the letter of employment from the school, to state a Job Title and simple job description which is accepted by the labour dept., and lines up with your qualifications / education. 

 

Can I suggest you print the documents and take them to the school, perhaps even complete as much as you can on the English version.

 

Post another message here on TV for specific help on the right words to use for this situation from those who have been this route. There must be quite a few members who are in this category and hopefully they have copies of the documents in Thai and maybe even in English and willing to scan and share, maybe cover the school name etc.

 

Or ask TV members for the name of a school which has gone this route and also a contact name. Get your school to call them (not the easiest process, Thai government workers don't like to call other gov't workers for advice, loss of face, but give it a try). 

 

If you can establish there's another school not too far away who have done the same thing, why not print everything you can and go visit them with a professional looking Thai person and ask them very politely for some guidance and hopefully some copies of the documents they used. No guarantee they would help buy hey, try anything. 

 

Another possibility, go the the various websites (for Thailand) for teachers, there are many of them and some are very professional and comprehensive, I'm guessing there will be comments and threads on this subject.

Edited June 13, 2017 by scorecard

[GarryP]

Gobsmacked by the level of assistance rendered here. From the who do you think you are, holier than thou who demand a PhD in Education in order to teach English in a rural school, to the never work for a school who does not know how to do the paperwork, regardless of the fact that they have never done it before ilk. 

 

I'm with "scorecard" on this.

[jwest10]

12 hours ago, tonray said:

I would not worry about it to that degree. But if the school wants to make it as authentic as possible your salary will be lower than what a standard teacher in that area would make...that would legitimize your status. If they pay you scale wage (same as other foreign teachers in same area) then you might have an issue...but the likelihood of immigration investigating a proper teacher assistant with WP are slim to none. They can't even find the teachers without permits let alone determining whether a teacher is teaching or assisting.

Tonray Your probably right, but knowing some people's luck !!! I also wonder if the Thais have degrees in English, let alone a degree. let alone a Native English speaker

In addition, some schools insist on the 60-year-old and must be retired, even though they have much more commitment  and dedication to teaching and often have heard in the past a student as said "Can you please explain what my Thai or Filipino has taught me in English"  and the subject is English

[balo]

Plenty of non-native English teachers without degrees working in Thailand.   And most of them do a good job. 

[jaiyenyen]

To the OP.

I went to the British embassy and signed a statutory declaration stating that I considered that the qualifications I had, plus my recent work experience was, in my opinion, the equivalent of a modern day degree.

I got a work permit.

[Preacher]

Teaching at a regular school requires a work permit and a teaching license, working without them are separate criminal offenses. Without a degree you will not receive a waiver of the teaching license, with will be required by both labour office and immigration.

If on a non-O based on marriage, you can get an extension of stay for reason of that (if you have enough money). In that case immigration might not check your work permit and will not be concerned with a teaching license waiver. The labour office still will.

 

The way around it not being a teacher but a teaching assistant, but that has its own requirements. One of the requirements is that it concerns a private school and not a government school. Another requirement is that you have relevant experience.

 

It is of course possible to teach illegally, but that leaves you constantly exposed. Checks are always possible and also consider what will happen if for example a student has an accident in your class or there is another serious incident.

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic, troll, inflammatory posts and replies removed.   This is the teaching forum.   Pontificating about the quality of teachers is not permitted.   The OP asked a straight forward question and it deserves a straightforward answer.  

 

So many experts on teaching, but still can't comprehend a question and then answer it.   You may well find yourself on suspension.  

 

To the OP:   The rules are going to vary greatly from one province to another.   You can get a WP as an assistant/consultant/trainer, BUT be aware that most immigration offices still want someone with a degree.   Those positions are usually used to get around the requirement for a degree in Education.  

 

I have worked with schools in several different provinces, some will approve a WP for someone without a degree, others will not.   They will not generally be approved as a teacher, because they can't get the Teacher's License or Waiver.

 

The school will have to make the application for whatever position is decided.   For a lot of the rural schools, they do not have anyone designated to assist with visas, so they will have to assign someone to do it.   It's not easy for someone who doesn't regularly do it.   At the schools I worked with, they have a designated person to take care of the visa issues, Teacher's License and Work Permit and when that person leaves and a new one starts it takes about 3 months for them to get a handle on the requirements and what they could and couldn't do.  

 

Most teachers do not have a WP when they start work and immigration is generally fairly understanding as long as the paperwork is in process -- that by the way was told to me by an immigration officer when we had a teacher who fell afoul of the law due to a fake Thai document submitted by a visa girl who eventually went to jail.   Initially the employee was charged and held by immigration.   When I talked with the immigration officer, he assured me that the teacher would not be charged with working illegally because the paperwork was submitted -- fake document and all.

 

That said, it is illegal and keep that in mind.   If you go to see labor or immigration, be very polite and follow the instructions they give you.  

 

Best of luck.  

 

[Backpacker1990]

Update:

 

Got all the paperwork ready what the ministry of labor wants to see. As follow:

 

Copy marriage certificate

Copy yellow book

Copy pink ID card

Copy passport

Contract

Job description 

Teacher license application 

Copy diploma + translation

Copy visa

 

Anyways, a lot of paperwork. What I'm concerned about. They have a application form to get a teacher license. In my opinion, I don't need it because on the contract my position is "teacher assistant" 

 

What are your thoughts about this? 

 

Thanks for the replies! 

[jaiyenyen]

I think you'll also need a medical certificate.

[metisdead]

A post using ALL CAPS has been removed, please turn off your Caps Lock when posting. 

[1SteveC]

3 hours ago, Backpacker1990 said:

Update:

 

Got all the paperwork ready what the ministry of labor wants to see. As follow:

 

Copy marriage certificate

Copy yellow book

Copy pink ID card

Copy passport

Contract

Job description 

Teacher license application 

Copy diploma + translation

Copy visa

 

Anyways, a lot of paperwork. What I'm concerned about. They have a application form to get a teacher license. In my opinion, I don't need it because on the contract my position is "teacher assistant" 

 

What are your thoughts about this? 

 

Thanks for the replies! 

 

You certainly do not need either a yellow book or ID card. Many people have neither,

 

If they want a teachers' licence application for you are screwed, the TCT will never give you a waiver without a degree.

 

PS Your opinion means nothing to the powers that be.

 

PPS I know this is frowned upon, but IF you are proposing to teach English - don't.

[mommysboy]

On 13/07/2017 at 8:13 PM, 1SteveC said:

 

You certainly do not need either a yellow book or ID card. Many people have neither,

 

If they want a teachers' licence application for you are screwed, the TCT will never give you a waiver without a degree.

 

PS Your opinion means nothing to the powers that be.

 

PPS I know this is frowned upon, but IF you are proposing to teach English - don't.

 

OP wrote: 'Please, only helpful information and thanks in advance for all the advice!' 

 

I don't know if this is watertight, however, by at least going through the proper channels you stand a chance; I would have thought.  It would be unlikely for instance that you would charged with working illegally because you have at least submitted the documents.  But, yes, without a degree you would most likely be rejected and told to stop working.  Some alternative approach might also present itself if the school is hard pressed to fill the vacancy. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by mommysboy

[stubuzz]

All of our "teaching assistants" were rejected by immigration when they went to extend their permission to stay.  They were told the loophole is now closed and a degree is needed for a non B extension. This is in the outskirts of BKK.

[aidenai]

2 hours ago, stubuzz said:

All of our "teaching assistants" were rejected by immigration when they went to extend their permission to stay.  They were told the loophole is now closed and a degree is needed for a non B extension. This is in the outskirts of BKK.

Most interesting. The rule was always there but never enforced. Below is the relevant screenshot of Police Order 327/2557'. What about upcountry? Any info?

 

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by aidenai

[pearciderman]

On 6/14/2017 at 8:39 AM, Preacher said:

Teaching at a regular school requires a work permit and a teaching license, working without them are separate criminal offenses. Without a degree you will not receive a waiver of the teaching license, with will be required by both labour office and immigration.

If on a non-O based on marriage, you can get an extension of stay for reason of that (if you have enough money). In that case immigration might not check your work permit and will not be concerned with a teaching license waiver. The labour office still will.

 

The way around it not being a teacher but a teaching assistant, but that has its own requirements. One of the requirements is that it concerns a private school and not a government school. Another requirement is that you have relevant experience.

 

It is of course possible to teach illegally, but that leaves you constantly exposed. Checks are always possible and also consider what will happen if for example a student has an accident in your class or there is another serious incident.

 

No it is not !

[ozmeldo]

On 06/13/2017 at 12:57 PM, balo said:

Plenty of non-native English teachers without degrees working in Thailand.   And most of them do a good job. 

Rubbish. Pretty much none under 50 as well.

 

OP not been back in months. We can assume he was not successful. Another group of kids saved from the salary seekers.

Edited September 27, 2017 by ozmeldo

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, ozmeldo said:

Rubbish. Pretty much none under 50 as well.

 

OP not been back in months. We can assume he was not successful. Another group of kids saved from the salary seekers.

 

You may be right if he was to be involved in state teaching.  He is not what we would regard as state qualified teacher, which requires a a specialised qualification.  In the UK, I think it goes under the acronym PGCE.

 

However, as far as I can tell he is a real TEFL teacher, which as initials suggest qualifies him to teach English as a second/foreign language.  What you write, then, is not cogent.

 

The degree issue is something invented by the Thai authorities.  It doesnt stop him being a properly qualified teacher.  It does however stop him from obtaining either the non-immigrant B visa required in the work permit process, and the Teacher's License waiver required to legally work as a teacher.  Thus, he can not work in Thailand.  He could in most countries, as he's a real TEFL teacher.

 

I agree with you that surely there now can not be many teaching without the required degree.  People who say it is possible are largely talking about the past.  Having said that, I do know of two, but I think it's fair to say that they are hanging in there by a thin thread and neither has a work permit or license waiver.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2017 by mommysboy

[stubuzz]

20 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

However, as far as I can tell he is a real TEFL teacher,

A real TEFL teacher will have a B.A or M.A in TESOL or linguistics or something like that and will easily obtain a work permit.

A guy with a 120 hour TEFL certificate will be shown the door.

 

[brewsterbudgen]

A real TEFL teacher will have a B.A or M.A in TESOL or linguistics or something like that and will easily obtain a work permit.
A guy with a 120 hour TEFL certificate will be shown the door.
 

Nonsense. A CELTA or Trinity TESOL qualification is accepted for TEFL jobs the world over.

[mommysboy]

Just now, stubuzz said:

A real TEFL teacher will have a B.A or M.A in TESOL or linguistics or something like that and will easily obtain a work permit.

A guy with a 120 hour TEFL certificate will be shown the door.

 

I doubt he would be 'shown the door' as you put it.  He would however be informed that it is not possible to teach in Thailand without a degree. 

 

As has been stated ad nauseum, he is a TEFL teacher because he has the industry required standard qualification.   The fact that this is not recognized as sufficient in Thailand does not change this.  You have an opinion but have stated it as fact.  I would suggest a quick edit.

 

[mommysboy]

46 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Nonsense. A CELTA or Trinity TESOL qualification is accepted for TEFL jobs the world over.

That is fact: CELTA is issued by Cambridge, and  is taught within both colleges and state higher education establishments.  It is an entry level qualifaction required to teach English as a foreign language.

 

I qualified via a CELTA course many moons ago, in the UK.  When I applied for local positions the following summer, nobody was remotely concerned with my degree, however, they all wanted a copy of the CELTA certificate. I just looked at some situations vacant in the UK.  We can all read things differently, yet it appears to me that the CELTA is the predominant requirement.  It doesn't surprise me: it was an extremely demanding course.  The current min. entry requirement is to demonstrate the same level of English required for a higher education course.

 

Having been out of higher education for a while, I really struggled on the course, and would go as far as to say I was bottom of the class, as there were some extremely capable people in my intake.  By the end of it, I was really quite competent, and transferred to the chalk face with seamless ease.

 

 

[mommysboy]

On 24/09/2017 at 6:33 PM, aidenai said:

Most interesting. The rule was always there but never enforced. Below is the relevant screenshot of Police Order 327/2557'. What about upcountry? Any info?

 

 

Not sure if you were merely commenting on the type of establishment.  Interesting, informative posting!

 

If you read 2.7(4), you will understand that it says 'degree or experience..... '.   Your screen shot was insufficient to finish the whole sentence but I think we can assume it was some exemption based on demonstrating experience and some alternative qualification.

 

2.7(1) also appears wrong- I'm sure it's not any Non-Im but a 'B' type.

 

I think I would politely describe Thailand's rules as being inscrutable.

 

Anyway, what we can all agree on in effect- and any future TEFL qualified enquiree can be sure of this- is that in Thailand anyone without a degree can not legally teach English, because the necessary documents needed will not be granted.

Edited September 27, 2017 by mommysboy