France's Macron says EU door remains open to UK

[dunroaming]

4 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

How can you substantiate your last sentence? Seriously, you have no way of knowing. It could be the same, less or even more surely?

All this is pointing to the need for a second referendum.  The only way to settle it, don't you think?

[dunroaming]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

'You gov' did a survey and the results are as follows. I know you will come back with some spin on it. Can you provide any evidence to the contrary?

It's a poll.  Does anyone anywhere believe polls?

[vogie]

Just now, dunroaming said:

It's a poll.  Does anyone anywhere believe polls?

You come up with something better, I'm always willing to listen?

[Baerboxer]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

'You gov' did a survey and the results are as follows. I know you will come back with some spin on it. Can you provide any evidence to the contrary?

 

1. There is still not much Bregret

There is still little sign of any “Bregret”. There is a media appetite for a narrative of the public changing their mind and some newspaper stories based on open-access voodoo polls or cherry-picking individual polls, but the broad picture is consistent: the vast majority of people still think the way they voted in June 2016 was correct.

 

" YouGov: Stephan Shakespeare, the firm's CEO as of 2017, once stood as a Conservative candidate for Colchester; he was also a Conservative Party pollster."  Source: Wkipedia

 

No bias there then!

Edited June 14, 2017 by Baerboxer

[vogie]

Just now, Baerboxer said:

 

" YouGov: Stephan Shakespeare, the firm's CEO as of 2017, once stood as a Conservative candidate for Colchester; he was also a Conservative Party pollster." 

 

No bias there then!

Any proof that we don't want to come out now?

[Baerboxer]

5 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

All this is pointing to the need for a second referendum.  The only way to settle it, don't you think?

 

Either a referendum, which I think is a political copout or a full parliamentary debate with a free vote without party whips.

 

Britain is a representative democracy in which those elected to parliament should represent the views of their electorate. Cameron used the referendum as a tool to try and quash dissent and divisiveness in his own party and the growing UKIP threat. He should have taken the result and there should have been a full parliamentary debate. But that would have exposed the bitter rifts in the Conservative party; so he resigned!

 

Had that happened, I doubt parliament would've supported leaving the EU. Their would've been cries for an election and the chances are the Conservatives would have either got a similar result to this or worse. So they bottled it. 

 

This has at least exposed the untrustworthy cynical hypocrisy of many current British politicians, and got young people interested in voting and understanding manifestos before voting too.

[Baerboxer]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

Any proof that we don't want to come out now?

 

No - just the same as there is no proof we do.

[Airbagwill]

Corbyn is a closet Brexiteer.

What he has failed to realise is the relative success he had is actually down to the remain vote.

If he wants to continue on his present course he needs to bear in mind 2 things.

Firstly he didn't win the last election and secondly he needs to scrap Brexit.

[lamyai3]

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

You come up with something better, I'm always willing to listen?

Given that the pollsters largely misdirected the public in the first referendum, here's something better to chew on. A second referendum, to make sure. 

[vogie]

Just now, Baerboxer said:

 

No - just the same as there is no proof we do.

So basically what you have said comes from where, nowhere? give me the credit of at least coming up with some facts, even if they are not to your liking. We are leaving the EU and it might be a good idea to listen to the majority that has chosen to leave, how ever much it must hurt your pride. 

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

Given that the pollsters largely misdirected the public in the first referendum, here's something better to chew on. A second referendum, to make sure. 

As I said, come up with something better and I'm willing to listen. You lost the vote, simple as that, no more referendums!

 

[nauseus]

32 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Then a second referendum would make sense wouldn't it?  Now that people know the reality of brexit and have realised all the promises were lies and we aren't going to stop people coming here from the EU countries.  Surely given that, the people do have the right of another vote.  But as I said the people are sick of being asked to make their own decisions so why not make them for them?

Aha  a Junckerite!

[nauseus]

15 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

Given that the pollsters largely misdirected the public in the first referendum, here's something better to chew on. A second referendum, to make sure. 

They were sure - chew on that!

[dunroaming]

19 minutes ago, vogie said:

As I said, come up with something better and I'm willing to listen. You lost the vote, simple as that, no more referendums!

 

Clearly the thought of a second referendum scared you.  So much denial but you aren't prepared to test your theory that the Brexiteers still think the same way.

[dunroaming]

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Aha  a Junckerite!

Were would you guys be without your labels!

[lamyai3]

20 minutes ago, vogie said:

As I said, come up with something better and I'm willing to listen. You lost the vote, simple as that, no more referendums!

 

Your answer is a cop out, for the following reasons.

- The original referendum was a botched decision by Cameron to quell disunity in his own party and should never have been foisted on the public as a majority vote with so little information.

 

- The months running up to the referendum displayed massive media bias in the tabloids, influencing heavily the target demographic who mostly voted. A vast majority of articles in the press at this time were pro-Brexit, with very little spelling out of the implications if it went ahead.

- Opinion polls indicated that remain would easily win, much like the Scottish referendum a year earlier. Many young people simply didn't bother to go out and vote. The high turnout of young voters in last week's election is part of the backlash relating to this.

- Pretty much everyone involved in the current process was a remainer, and just completely switched course overnight.

 

Given the above and the bad news that keeps unfolding subsequent to the referendum, why is everyone so scared of a second vote, before negotiations start?

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

Your answer is a cop out, for the following reasons.

- The original referendum was a botched decision by Cameron to quell disunity in his own party and should never have been foisted on the public as a majority vote with so little information.

 

- The months running up to the referendum displayed massive media bias in the tabloids, influencing heavily the target demographic who mostly voted. A vast majority of articles in the press at this time were pro-Brexit, with very little spelling out of the implications if it went ahead.

- Opinion polls indicated that remain would easily win, much like the Scottish referendum a year earlier. Many young people simply didn't bother to go out and vote. The high turnout of young voters in last week's election is part of the backlash relating to this.

- Pretty much everyone involved in the current process was a remainer, and just completely switched course overnight.

 

Given the above and the bad news that keeps unfolding subsequent to the referendum, why is everyone so scared of a second vote, before negotiations start?

It wasn't a legally binding referendum anyway.  And it was Nigel Farage who said that if the result turned out to be 52-48 against Brexit, he would try again.

[nauseus]

51 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Were would you guys be without your labels!

After the comment: But as I said the people are sick of being asked to make their own decisions so why not make them for them? it seemed quite appropriate! Typically undemocratic as is the EU.

Edited June 14, 2017 by nauseus

[nauseus]

44 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

It wasn't a legally binding referendum anyway.  And it was Nigel Farage who said that if the result turned out to be 52-48 against Brexit, he would try again.

What on earth has that to do with legality?? 

[ilostmypassword]

21 minutes ago, nauseus said:

What on earth has that to do with legality?? 

Because if it didn't legally bind the UK to a course of action, why can't it be done again?

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, lamyai3 said:

Your answer is a cop out, for the following reasons.

- The original referendum was a botched decision by Cameron to quell disunity in his own party and should never have been foisted on the public as a majority vote with so little information. You mean botched because the vote was to LEAVE, I suppose? the referendum was in the Tory manifesto and they were voted IN.

 

- The months running up to the referendum displayed massive media bias in the tabloids, influencing heavily the target demographic who mostly voted. A vast majority of articles in the press at this time were pro-Brexit, with very little spelling out of the implications if it went ahead. What about TV bias like the good old BBC??

- Opinion polls indicated that remain would easily win, much like the Scottish referendum a year earlier. Many young people simply didn't bother to go out and vote. The high turnout of young voters in last week's election is part of the backlash relating to this. So what? It just shows how apathetic they are!

- Pretty much everyone involved in the current process was a remainer, and just completely switched course overnight. The government is at least fulfilling its promise to honour the referendum vote. 

 

Given the above and the bad news that keeps unfolding subsequent to the referendum, why is everyone so scared of a second vote, before negotiations start? What bad news? The EU tactic is to encourage these reruns until the voters "get it right" - look at Holland, France, Ireland etc. 

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by nauseus

[nauseus]

14 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Because if it didn't legally bind the UK to a course of action, why can't it be done again?

I was referring to the legality of what Farage says. The referendum called for an instruction to government by the people - if it was not legal then why have it? It is legal and was accepted by all the UK powers as such.

[ilostmypassword]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I was referring to the legality of what Farage says. The referendum called for an instruction to government by the people - if it was not legal then why have it? It is legal and was accepted by all the UK powers as such.

Who said it wasn't legal?  It just wasn't legally binding.

And here's Nigel Farage:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

Edited June 14, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[nauseus]

Constitutionally the referendum result was decisive and binding and not just advisory. It mandates the government to give notice under Article 50. 

 

Goodnight!

[lamyai3]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

1 hour ago, lamyai3 said:

Your answer is a cop out, for the following reasons.

- The original referendum was a botched decision by Cameron to quell disunity in his own party and should never have been foisted on the public as a majority vote with so little information. You mean botched because the vote was to LEAVE, I suppose? the referendum was in the Tory manifesto and they were voted IN.

 

- The months running up to the referendum displayed massive media bias in the tabloids, influencing heavily the target demographic who mostly voted. A vast majority of articles in the press at this time were pro-Brexit, with very little spelling out of the implications if it went ahead. What about TV bias like the good old BBC??

- Opinion polls indicated that remain would easily win, much like the Scottish referendum a year earlier. Many young people simply didn't bother to go out and vote. The high turnout of young voters in last week's election is part of the backlash relating to this. So what? It just shows how apathetic they are!

- Pretty much everyone involved in the current process was a remainer, and just completely switched course overnight. The government is at least fulfilling its to honour the referendum vote, as promised. 

 

Given the above and the bad news that keeps unfolding subsequent to the referendum, why is everyone so scared of a second vote, before negotiations start? What bad news? The EU tactic is to encourage these reruns until the voters "get it right" - look at Holland, France, Ireland etc. 

 

Botched because it was never meant to take place in the first place, it was just a tactic by Cameron to placate members of his own party. And botched in that it's widely agreed that the public really knew nothing about the substance of what they voted for (and aren't that much wiser a full year later. You must have heard the phrase "Brexit with no plan"? 

 

The tabloids ran articles in a ratio of 2:1 favouring leave. Everything from rulings about toasters and vacuum cleaners to the Queen supporting it. There was a barrage of misdirection and misinformation. As to the BBC and similar outlets, they themselves created a lot of the problem by indicating right up to the point the results were being announced that it would almost certainly be a remain vote.

 

Your third comment is plain irresponsible, the public was completely misinformed about what Brexit meant and where the results were headed. Effectively, the only propaganda given to the younger generation was nothing to worry about here.

 

Regarding the government, why is it not in their interests (as well as the public) to hold a second, informed referendum now more is known about what it means? 

 

As to bad news, you've obviously had your head buried in the sand (or maybe the Daily Mail). Here's an example being discussed right now in another thread, London is the world's biggest financial centre, and looks set to lose 100,000 jobs, and a £1.5 trillion industry - how can this be anything other than a disaster? 

.

 

 

 

[vogie]

8 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

Your answer is a cop out, for the following reasons.

- The original referendum was a botched decision by Cameron to quell disunity in his own party and should never have been foisted on the public as a majority vote with so little information.

 

- The months running up to the referendum displayed massive media bias in the tabloids, influencing heavily the target demographic who mostly voted. A vast majority of articles in the press at this time were pro-Brexit, with very little spelling out of the implications if it went ahead.

- Opinion polls indicated that remain would easily win, much like the Scottish referendum a year earlier. Many young people simply didn't bother to go out and vote. The high turnout of young voters in last week's election is part of the backlash relating to this.

- Pretty much everyone involved in the current process was a remainer, and just completely switched course overnight.

 

Given the above and the bad news that keeps unfolding subsequent to the referendum, why is everyone so scared of a second vote, before negotiations start?

My answer is not a "cop out" please remember that most of the country is happy with the referendum result, it is just a pity that remainers cannot accept the democratic decision of those who voted to leave the EU.

 

The brexiters won for many reasons, but the most important factor is they won, you cannot keep dragging your heels, wake up and rejoice.

 

And to keep harping on about 'we were lied to' well I have news for you, we were both lied to, but to keep using this as an excuse is totally pathetic.

 

Nobody is scared of yet another referendum, because hardly anybody wants one, the only people that want another referendum are the 5% of remainers who have not accepted the referendum result. Most level headed remainers have now accepted the correct decision to leave, and it appears that only the 'flat earth society' branch of the remainers have a problem with it.

Edited June 15, 2017 by vogie

[nontabury]

11 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

Actually, it's an open question, you don't need to reply if you don't understand it. 

 

For anyone who actually might have an informed opinion, is there a reason that a second referendum is off the table? The cost of Brexit was not remotely spelt out before the original referendum, and the polls all indicated remain would happen, causing large complacency and non voting in large sections of the younger population (many of whom have woken up to their mistake in last week's election). 

 

If the will of the British electorate is so clear, what would be the harm in a second referendum to make sure? "The people have spoken" is being trotted out ad nauseam by the government and yet they seem terrified to take any kind of step to find out if this is actually true. 

Can we have another General election, as I don't think the electorate understood the financial implications of Corbyns manifesto, and more importantly I did't agree how the election panned out. 

[nontabury]

11 hours ago, vogie said:

Oh you started your post off so well, but you are missing the point, the British electorate do not want Brexit to be scrapped. When you say "I am pretty certain that more people want that today than those who don't." You would be wrong, As many people today still want to leave the EU.

Probably more people now support Brexit, as many thought at the time that  the earth would cease to exist upon Brexit, well that's what the Remoaners predicted.

 Instead they can now see the true intentions of our masters in the Brussels Bureacracy.

[Orac]

Can we have another General election, as I don't think the electorate understood the financial implications of Corbyns manifesto, and more importantly I did't agree how the election panned out. 

Of course you can - it is the law that we have one every five years of whenever parliament loses confidence in the PM.

[rockingrobin]

57 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Probably more people now support Brexit, as many thought at the time that  the earth would cease to exist upon Brexit, well that's what the Remoaners predicted.

 Instead they can now see the true intentions of our masters in the Brussels Bureacracy.

The only way to know is to ask them