75% of Thai-Sino rail project’s budget set to hire Thai workers: Transport Ministry

[rooster59]

75% of Thai-Sino rail project’s budget set to hire Thai workers: Transport Ministry

supawadee wangsri

 

BANGKOK, 17 June 2017 (NNT) - Transport Ministry Permanent Secretary Chatchai Thipsunawee said that the Article 44 order of the Prime Minister will address legal problems which have delayed the Thai-Sino rail project. 

Though the Thai Engineers Act calls for foreign professionals to pass the examination for a license, Thailand will provide training or orientation courses for Chinese engineers to familiarize them with the routes, resources and terrains instead of forcing them to take an exam, he said. 

Under the Thai law, a government project which may cost more than five billion baht needs to be scrutinized by a procurement superboard, but such legal obligations could be a time-consuming process. The legal requirement for clear median prices could also pose a problem as the project price is still being negotiated. Reference prices would be used instead. 

The major obstacle is the route of the railway which will encroach upon designated farmland, or Sor Por Kor land. By law, such land cannot be used for any other purpose and to overcome such legal restriction, the Article 44 is needed, he said. 

He insisted that the government will focus on the effectiveness of the project implementation and take into account the benefits of the people and transparency. 

He confirmed that 75 percent of the project’s budget or about 136 billion will be used to employ Thai workers and only 25 percent of it or about 43,000 million baht will be used to employ Chinese personnel. In addition, both Thailand and China will benefit from technology transfers and knowledge exchanges.

 

 

 

-- nnt 2017-06-18

[Ricardo]

If 75% of the project's budget is paying Thai-workers, and the remaining 25% goes on Chinese experts, how would they pay for the land used for the project, or the construction-materials ?

 

As so often seen, poor reporting or confusing presentation of the facts, makes the OP less-than-clear !

[ChrisY1]

I think when they mention Thai workers....they really mean Burmese and Cambodian slaves.

The 75% content may be close, but there'll be a flood of "specialist" Chinese companies that will open here......and once they start they'll probably never leave.

The next civilian government, if ever there is one, will be hammered with huge debts for years, and an extremely expensive rail system to manage.

[coulson]

If 75% of the project's budget is paying Thai-workers, and the remaining 25% goes on Chinese experts, how would they pay for the land used for the project, or the construction-materials ?

 

As so often seen, poor reporting or confusing presentation of the facts, makes the OP less-than-clear !

 

Look closer.....

 

75% = 136 billion baht

25% = 43 million baht

 

But the most confusing thing of all is why anyone would bypass due diligence for Chinese Engineering expertise !?!?

 

This project has disaster written all over it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[halloween]

17 minutes ago, coulson said:

 

Look closer.....

 

75% = 136 billion baht

25% = 43 million baht

 

But the most confusing thing of all is why anyone would bypass due diligence for Chinese Engineering expertise !?!?

 

This project has disaster written all over it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Due diligence? What language do you think the test would be in? How much of that test would be relevant to high-speed rail construction; any?

Who is more likely to have in-depth knowledge of high speed rail, Thai engineers or the Chinese who have working on it for years?

[halloween]

24 minutes ago, ChrisY1 said:

I think when they mention Thai workers....they really mean Burmese and Cambodian slaves.

The 75% content may be close, but there'll be a flood of "specialist" Chinese companies that will open here......and once they start they'll probably never leave.

The next civilian government, if ever there is one, will be hammered with huge debts for years, and an extremely expensive rail system to manage.

"...... a flood of "specialist" Chinese companies that will open here......and once they start they'll probably never leave."  

 

aka foreign investment, allegedly a positive. They will also have a very good dual track rail line producing foreign income for handling Chinese freight. A somewhat better investment than warehouses full of rotting rice.

[coulson]

Due diligence? What language do you think the test would be in? How much of that test would be relevant to high-speed rail construction; any?

Who is more likely to have in-depth knowledge of high speed rail, Thai engineers or the Chinese who have working on it for years?

 

Due diligence also means extending to the International market.

 

The Chinese only developed high speed rail this Century. The Japanese and French have been working on it for a little bit longer.

 

My point is this is not at all about building a sustainable project, it is about pandering to the Chinese.

 

Stonehenge 2 coming soon to a town near you.

 

[halloween]

2 hours ago, coulson said:

 

Due diligence also means extending to the International market.

 

The Chinese only developed high speed rail this Century. The Japanese and French have been working on it for a little bit longer.

 

My point is this is not at all about building a sustainable project, it is about pandering to the Chinese.

 

Stonehenge 2 coming soon to a town near you.

 

2/3 of the world's high speed rail tracks are in China, and they are building the line through Laos. but let's not "pander".

BTW Stonehenge attracted 1.3 million tourists last year; not a bad little earner.

[Srikcir]

6 hours ago, rooster59 said:

Thailand will provide training or orientation courses for Chinese engineers to familiarize them with the routes, resources and terrains

Question: In what country are Bangkok and Nakhon Ratchasima located?

Answer:    Thailand

PASS

[Dumbastheycome]

9 hours ago, coulson said:

 

Look closer.....

 

75% = 136 billion baht

25% = 43 million baht

 

But the most confusing thing of all is why anyone would bypass due diligence for Chinese Engineering expertise !?!?

 

This project has disaster written all over it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why  so ? Due  diligence  for a project  that  Thai  have  no  real experience  in but the  Chinese  do?

 

[coulson]

Why  so ? Due  diligence  for a project  that  Thai  have  no  real experience  in but the  Chinese  do?
 

It's more than that.

They haven't got off the ground for a number of cost analysis disputes. The memorandum of understanding was signed on the basis that it is not a profit making exercise, more of a friendship building.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/thai-china-rail-project-will-continue

If the budget runs out and China are expected to finish it, how would that basis of agreement turn out?.....like an abandoned concrete skyscraper.

When I said due diligence, I was also referring to a minor factor such as Feasibility Study and Environmental Assessment.

The last time a joint venture rail project was rushed ahead in Thailand without these fundamental analysis, we can all see what happened when we get a cab to Don Mueng.

[Dumbastheycome]

8 minutes ago, coulson said:

 

It's more than that.

They haven't got off the ground for a number of cost analysis disputes. The memorandum of understanding was signed on the basis that it is not a profit making exercise, more of a friendship building.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/thai-china-rail-project-will-continue

If the budget runs out and China are expected to finish it, how would that basis of agreement turn out?.....like an abandoned concrete skyscraper.

When I said due diligence, I was also referring to a minor factor such as Feasibility Study and Environmental Assessment.

The last time a joint venture rail project was rushed ahead in Thailand without these fundamental analysis, we can all see what happened when we get a cab to Don Mueng.
 

 

Although  it is true  there was  no  feasibility  study  done  prior  to  commencing  that project the main  cause  of it's  failure  for  completion  was the financial demise of that era coupled  with gross  corruption. 

The  feasibility  of  the  route   to  Don Mueang  is  now  basically  confirmed  as an overdue  priority. 

As  to  other  sections  I  offer   no opinion.

The  current  project which includes  the  high speed  rail to link  China is  quite likely to be  completed  regardless  due to the  significant  advantages  of it to one  side  or the  other  but  perhaps  for   different incentive in the  current  political/economic  global   turmoil.

[Becker]

9 hours ago, halloween said:

"...... a flood of "specialist" Chinese companies that will open here......and once they start they'll probably never leave."  

 

aka foreign investment, allegedly a positive. They will also have a very good dual track rail line producing foreign income for handling Chinese freight. A somewhat better investment than warehouses full of rotting rice.

Ah, halloween....the ultimate junta apologist. Trust him to invoke the dreaded name of Thaksin when someone dares question his beloved junta.

That got old soon after the coup but hey, if you don't have the facts on your side then I guess you use what little you've got.

PS. Are you using the same astrologer as the junta chief? I mean, since you can predict how this investment will turn out already you obviously have some serious mojo on your side.

[halloween]

3 minutes ago, Becker said:

Ah, halloween....the ultimate junta apologist. Trust him to invoke the dreaded name of Thaksin when someone dares question his beloved junta.

That got old soon after the coup but hey, if you don't have the facts on your side then I guess you use what little you've got.

PS. Are you using the same astrologer as the junta chief? I mean, since you can predict how this investment will turn out already you obviously have some serious mojo on your side.

Becker, my favourite Shinawatra sycophant, which do think will be the better investment, a dual-track high-speed freight line connecting to China or the rice scam?

If the line costs B400 billion, would it possible for it to lose another B200 billion in 2.5 years? I suppose, even if it did, they'd have a railway, wouldn't they?

 

I know that wasn't fair, the rice scam wasn't an investment, it was the price of an election, and it cost the buyers nothing.

 

[Becker]

7 minutes ago, halloween said:

If the line costs B400 billion, would it possible for it to lose another B200 billion in 2.5 years? I suppose, even if it did, they'd have a railway, wouldn't they?

 

You mean, like they have the aircraft carrier and will have the subs, the way they have bomb detectors and blimps and.....well, you get the idea (hopefully)?

You see halloween, we're talking about Thailand, where e.g. minor issues like maintenance and upkeep rarely are factored in when making decisions about large public projects, which makes the use of the almighty article 44 to rush things through a particularly bad idea. So for you to claim that this will certainly benefit Thailand more than the rice subsidy ever did is just a teeny bit premature.

Unless you have that aforementioned mojo, of course. But since the junta leader gave himself and his fellow co-conspirators a whopper of an amnesty for all past, present and future "transgressions" they can't be held accountable if this thing goes south, right?

[halloween]

2 minutes ago, Becker said:

You mean, like they have the aircraft carrier and will have the subs, the way they have bomb detectors and blimps and.....well, you get the idea (hopefully)?

You see halloween, we're talking about Thailand, where e.g. minor issues like maintenance and upkeep rarely are factored in when making decisions about large public projects, which makes the use of the almighty article 44 to rush things through a particularly bad idea. So for you to claim that this will certainly benefit Thailand more than the rice subsidy ever did is just a teeny bit premature.

Unless you have that aforementioned mojo, of course. But since the junta leader gave himself and his fellow co-conspirators a whopper of an amnesty for all past, present and future "transgressions" they can't be held accountable if this thing goes south, right?

The miitary hardware doesn't come close to the losses from the rice scam. As an American, you might want to think about your own country's military expenditure, or are you just snotty because your mob aren't the suppliers?

You may have heard, the dual tracking south is also being accelerated - couldn't be done before, the rice budget took too much - and in my lifetime I may be able to experience a reasonably smooth fast train trip to the relatives in the North.

BTW it's easy to claim more benefit than the rice scam because it didn't have any.

[Ricardo]

12 hours ago, coulson said:

 

Look closer.....

 

75% = 136 billion baht

25% = 43 million baht

 

But the most confusing thing of all is why anyone would bypass due diligence for Chinese Engineering expertise !?!?

 

This project has disaster written all over it.

 

 

Look at the OP again,  it says  " only 25 percent of it or about 43,000 million baht will be used to employ Chinese personnel",  where do you get "25% =  43 million baht"  from  ?

[coulson]

 
Look at the OP again,  it says  " only 25 percent of it or about 43,000 million baht will be used to employ Chinese personnel",  where do you get "25% =  43 million baht"  from  ?

And so it does, my bad!

[Becker]

2 hours ago, halloween said:

The miitary hardware doesn't come close to the losses from the rice scam. As an American, you might want to think about your own country's military expenditure, or are you just snotty because your mob aren't the suppliers?

You may have heard, the dual tracking south is also being accelerated - couldn't be done before, the rice budget took too much - and in my lifetime I may be able to experience a reasonably smooth fast train trip to the relatives in the North.

BTW it's easy to claim more benefit than the rice scam because it didn't have any.

Firstly, I don't know what the rice subsidy will end up costing and neither do you. You claim it did not benefit any of the people it was suppose to be helping. I dispute that. As I have said before, the rice subsidy was poorly though out and even worse executed. No doubt (as with all public projects in Thailand) it was rife with corruption. (You see, I have no problem criticising the elected governments but I will continue to defend their right to be elected. You, OTOH, can only see the faults of the Shin administrations and automatically defend anything the junta does - including it's human rights abuses. It almost seems to be a Pavlovian reaction. Pretty sad.)

 

Secondly, if factoring in the purchase and running costs of the aircraft carrier for decades, the same costs for the subs etc, ect we will no doubt end up with a huge sum of money. How much? Impossible to say but I'm sure we're talking hundreds of billions.

 

Thirdly,  who told you I was an American?

[Chris Lawrence]

"Under the Thai law, a government project which may cost more than five billion baht needs to be scrutinized by a procurement superboard, but such legal obligations could be a time-consuming process. The legal requirement for clear median prices could also pose a problem as the project price is still being negotiated. Reference prices would be used instead. "

 

This is the safety net to go over the project details and hopefully ensure money is well spent. Take this out and you get back to 'rice scheme' and 'bomb detecting machine' problems.

 

If you add up the spending that the General and the 'good people' are spending and you are going to surpass any 'rice scheme' budgets.
 

[jerojero]

Reduce qualifying for Chinese engineers, reference prices (guesstimates) only, project go fast fast.....Recipe for disaster, or megaproject mess at least.

 

 

[halloween]

8 hours ago, Becker said:

Firstly, I don't know what the rice subsidy will end up costing and neither do you. You claim it did not benefit any of the people it was suppose to be helping. I dispute that. As I have said before, the rice subsidy was poorly though out and even worse executed. No doubt (as with all public projects in Thailand) it was rife with corruption. (You see, I have no problem criticising the elected governments but I will continue to defend their right to be elected. You, OTOH, can only see the faults of the Shin administrations and automatically defend anything the junta does - including it's human rights abuses. It almost seems to be a Pavlovian reaction. Pretty sad.)

 

Secondly, if factoring in the purchase and running costs of the aircraft carrier for decades, the same costs for the subs etc, ect we will no doubt end up with a huge sum of money. How much? Impossible to say but I'm sure we're talking hundreds of billions.

 

Thirdly,  who told you I was an American?

You dispute that - OK show us who benefits. Landlords who put the rent up, land developers who built rice storage, rice smugglers?

I don't automatically defend the junta where ctiticism is due. I defend against the knee-jerk Pavlovian criticism of everything they do whether it is justified or not, and the attempts to insert the cost of a less than average military budget into every financial equation. Just as you do in this post. The junta has plenty of faults, but nowhere near as many as those they replaced.

Nobody had to tell me, it shows.

[Chris Lawrence]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

You dispute that - OK show us who benefits. Landlords who put the rent up, land developers who built rice storage, rice smugglers?

I don't automatically defend the junta where ctiticism is due. I defend against the knee-jerk Pavlovian criticism of everything they do whether it is justified or not, and the attempts to insert the cost of a less than average military budget into every financial equation. Just as you do in this post. The junta has plenty of faults, but nowhere near as many as those they replaced.

Nobody had to tell me, it shows.

 

 

Hallo it would appear that your quotes or attacks are more of a conditioned response as your train of thought here is without true logic. The budgets of the armed forces always increase during their rein in power. Fact. If you add the spending on the military plus the police buildings it is up around the 20 billion baht mark. Now there is section 44 being used to remove checks and balances on the new rail system. No one independent has put a cost on the rice scheme, but it is agreed that it went overboard. There is also the election. This keeps getting put back, while more people are being roped in for views not shared by the Govt. The new constitution is looking to only "good people" holding office, so long as these good people have repented past sins?

 

Pavlovian criticism, knee-jerk, I would say it is you with the bells in your head, salivating when someone has a view that differs from you. Your responses are conditioned and structured like a reflex concept that has little merit. Just another hungry Pavlov dog.

[halloween]

2 minutes ago, Chris Lawrence said:

 

 

Hallo it would appear that your quotes or attacks are more of a conditioned response as your train of thought here is without true logic. The budgets of the armed forces always increase during their rein in power. Fact. If you add the spending on the military plus the police buildings it is up around the 20 billion baht mark. Now there is section 44 being used to remove checks and balances on the new rail system. No one independent has put a cost on the rice scheme, but it is agreed that it went overboard. There is also the election. This keeps getting put back, while more people are being roped in for views not shared by the Govt. The new constitution is looking to only "good people" holding office, so long as these good people have repented past sins?

 

Pavlovian criticism, knee-jerk, I would say it is you with the bells in your head, salivating when someone has a view that differs from you. Your responses are conditioned and structured like a reflex concept that has little merit. Just another hungry Pavlov dog.

Nice little rant, what was it supposed to mean? Do you know why nobody independent has costed the rice scam - because PTP deliberately refused to release records of a scheme estimated to have LOST B200 billion, with turnover multiples of that. You don't dispute that at 1.45% GDP (2016) the military budget is significantly less than world average (and we better leave the debt-ridden US well out of it) but now try to add in RTP expenditure as well in a petty scrabble to build numbers.

The big point is, this expenditure is to buy infrastructure which improve national GDP as well as earn foreign income, and whine like a spoilt child when someone compares that to the massive expenditure of the last government which gained nothing. Where were the checks and balances for that? As I said, I will defend the junta against unjustified criticism. You can call that what you want, but you better come up with some justification to retain credibility.

For starters what does the next election have to do with a railway? Is that all you've got, re-stating the bleeding obvious that the junta isn't elected, as a basis to criticise every step they take?

[Becker]

3 hours ago, halloween said:

As I said, I will defend the junta against unjustified criticism. You can call that what you want, but you better come up with some justification to retain credibility.

Wrong. You have a knee jerk reaction to any perceived slight of the junta - even when they are criticised for human rights abuses(!), and most of the time your reaction is to refer to something one of the Shin administrations did years ago while spectacularly failing to acknowledge that they are not the ones running the country now, it's the bunch of dinos who took power that's doing that. You know, the ones that gave themselves the mother of all amnesties. So the one with (huge) credibility issues is you.Sorry to restate the bleeding obvious but it doesn't seem to penetrate your skull.

If it's ever completed will this pet project (well, apart from the subs, beach chairs and lottery prices) of the thin-skinned one ever bring any benefit to Thailand? Let's hope so, but if history is any guide then I'm not very hopeful.

[halloween]

1 hour ago, Becker said:

Wrong. You have a knee jerk reaction to any perceived slight of the junta - even when they are criticised for human rights abuses(!), and most of the time your reaction is to refer to something one of the Shin administrations did years ago while spectacularly failing to acknowledge that they are not the ones running the country now, it's the bunch of dinos who took power that's doing that. You know, the ones that gave themselves the mother of all amnesties. So the one with (huge) credibility issues is you.Sorry to restate the bleeding obvious but it doesn't seem to penetrate your skull.

If it's ever completed will this pet project (well, apart from the subs, beach chairs and lottery prices) of the thin-skinned one ever bring any benefit to Thailand? Let's hope so, but if history is any guide then I'm not very hopeful.

Still waiting for who benefited from the rice scam. Or do you defend the Shinawatras without the benefit of argument to back it? Are you adding to the argument or, like your mate, just adding personal attack in lieu?

[bheard]

Technology transfers from Thailand to China? Ummm . . .

[Becker]

2 hours ago, halloween said:

Still waiting for who benefited from the rice scam. Or do you defend the Shinawatras without the benefit of argument to back it? Are you adding to the argument or, like your mate, just adding personal attack in lieu?

And here is the answer: Probably a number of rice farmers, in addition to those who normally (and illegally) benefit from large scale public projects. Oh, and let me again remind you that this thread is about a rail project planned by your junta chief and not about the Shins. As I've said before you are obsessed with them and see reds under every bush/in every thread.

Case in point:

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/988502-suvarnabhumi-stand-off-airport-claps-back-after-being-called-ninth-worst/?do=findComment&comment=12000934

 

Again, sad.

 

[Dumbastheycome]

5 hours ago, Becker said:

Wrong. You have a knee jerk reaction to any perceived slight of the junta - even when they are criticised for human rights abuses(!), and most of the time your reaction is to refer to something one of the Shin administrations did years ago while spectacularly failing to acknowledge that they are not the ones running the country now, it's the bunch of dinos who took power that's doing that. You know, the ones that gave themselves the mother of all amnesties. So the one with (huge) credibility issues is you.Sorry to restate the bleeding obvious but it doesn't seem to penetrate your skull.

If it's ever completed will this pet project (well, apart from the subs, beach chairs and lottery prices) of the thin-skinned one ever bring any benefit to Thailand? Let's hope so, but if history is any guide then I'm not very hopeful.

Many times  I have  seen  reference to human  rights  abuse accorded  to the  current  administration.

I would really  like  some  definition of  what those  abuses  are?

[Chris Lawrence]

9 hours ago, halloween said:

Nice little rant, what was it supposed to mean? Do you know why nobody independent has costed the rice scam - because PTP deliberately refused to release records of a scheme estimated to have LOST B200 billion, with turnover multiples of that. You don't dispute that at 1.45% GDP (2016) the military budget is significantly less than world average (and we better leave the debt-ridden US well out of it) but now try to add in RTP expenditure as well in a petty scrabble to build numbers.

The big point is, this expenditure is to buy infrastructure which improve national GDP as well as earn foreign income, and whine like a spoilt child when someone compares that to the massive expenditure of the last government which gained nothing. Where were the checks and balances for that? As I said, I will defend the junta against unjustified criticism. You can call that what you want, but you better come up with some justification to retain credibility.

For starters what does the next election have to do with a railway? Is that all you've got, re-stating the bleeding obvious that the junta isn't elected, as a basis to criticise every step they take?

Hallo's school report for Comprehension: 'tries hard but does not follow any real argument with fact. Appears to use headlines used in the real world that lack substance.'

 

Your post' are usually like a 'Seinfeld' script, a story about nothing.  Anyone who does not share your extremists views is terrorised, then given a gob full of headlines that have no true merit. You sprout figures but are not backed up with where you have got them.  The lectures you offer are no more than a harangue of aggressive speech. You offer no substance.

 

Hallo you are conditioned as Pavlov conditioned his dogs.

 

There are about 11 points in your post, that do not entirely relate to what I posted. But the worst part about your writing is that it goes nowhere. I only responded to your use of pavlovian  criticism, one point. Your points raised make you appear like a troll.

 

Better luck next time.