PM asks people not to hate military

[Srikcir]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

Why let others clean up her mess and take responsibility.

I don't think Suthep's PDRC, the Constitutional Court nor Prayut's coup gave her such an option.

But that's enough about your favorite personality. Onward to loving the coup!

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

I don't think Suthep's PDRC, the Constitutional Court nor Prayut's coup gave her such an option.

But that's enough about your favorite personality. Onward to loving the coup!

She had plenty of time to do something before she stepped down, when she still had the power. But she did no such thing again more incompetence on her side. (onward defender of incompetence and corruption). As a result people killed themselves because of her oversight and negligence. 

[JCauto]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

In Vietnam and other countries they are farmers too.. but producing much more rice per rai and lower cost per rai. So the Thais are doing something wrong. YL her plan of just sending out money (and letting her minions steal from it) did not work and benefitted mainly the big rice producers.. not the smaller ones. If she was genuine then there would have been a maximum to be brought in so it would benefit the small farmers more. 

 

Anyway if the farmers won't change their methods and / or learn more then pumping in money time after time is not going to change a bit. Education is the key many farmers who have changed are doing well. Having read reports and news-articles many farmers just don't want to change its easier to get a handout.  

 

Its totally unfair that all that money is being spend on farmers while the whole of Thailand could have benefited if the 500 billion had gone into healthcare. Only reason the farmers get that money all the time is that they are a voting block. That is a big problem as they don't want to change (re educate do new stuff set up cooperatives ect) and they have power. I guess you would not mind it as if you were a taxpayer in your own country and the people in welfare would be the ones controlling the amount of money they got.. while not wanting to study to get a paying job.. and you as a taxpayer paying it all.

 

It just does not work like this and farmers should be forced to either study and apply new stuff or not get money. I am all for handing out loans without any interest (would be tricky to check it all) for new farm equipment and or bridging credits when they change the way they farm.

 

I grew up in a farming community in Holland I know a thing or 2 about farmers.. the old ones died out and went broke because they would not change the  younger and innovative ones grew and made money. 

 

Its totally unfair to help farmers all the time.. but not others.. if somchai starts a noodle shop and it goes bust.. too bad for him.. but a farmer gets the help all the time.... why.. voting block. 

So the decades of pretty much not helping farmers at all while the money flooded into Bangkok and into the coffers of the rich and connected didn't bother you despite the farmers being the major voting block. The farmers having to break up their families so that the parents migrated to Bangkok and the surrounding areas for factory jobs while their kids stayed back on the farm with the grandparents didn't bother you. Only when the major voting block finally unites and starts to direct the majority of funding to farmers, then it's "unfair" to help farmers all the time but not others. And if you think that money was going to help Somchai in his noodle shop, you're completely unaware of how the economy and politics work in Thailand. This is nothing more than hypocrisy. You know who brought in the closest thing they've had to universal healthcare? You got it - Thaksin. Despite the many decades in power, the Amart never managed to pull that off. Wonder why? You know who has been managing the education system in this country for decades? The same people. So you identify the farmers as having never been trained properly as the main issue (it's not, as you probably realize it's a multi-faceted and complex problem), you fail to note that the people whom they voted against had the power to change this but repeatedly did nothing about it for a long long time, then you place this unrealistic condition on top of the farmers as a basis for them receiving ANY money in future despite them being the major voting block. Nice. This is basically institutionalizing poverty and putting the blame for it on the rural poor.

While it's refreshing that someone on the other side would actually have some experience in farming, you would likely discover that farming in Holland and farming in Isarn are two completely different things. Perhaps you could provide these stupid farmers with the benefit of your experience? Fact is, if the Amart had bothered to do anything to improve the livelihoods or living conditions of the farmers, they'd have their votes and not have to continuously resort to seizing power via the military. Instead, they simply ignore them and continue to lecture them from on high, regularly interrupting their attempts to elect someone who will try to improve their situation. Was Yingluck a poor administrator and the rice scheme unsuccessful in achieving those goals? Seems so. But you know why nobody from the other side can point to their efforts and say "that's how you should have done it"? Because they never even tried.

[robblok]

1 minute ago, JCauto said:

So the decades of pretty much not helping farmers at all while the money flooded into Bangkok and into the coffers of the rich and connected didn't bother you despite the farmers being the major voting block. The farmers having to break up their families so that the parents migrated to Bangkok and the surrounding areas for factory jobs while their kids stayed back on the farm with the grandparents didn't bother you. Only when the major voting block finally unites and starts to direct the majority of funding to farmers, then it's "unfair" to help farmers all the time but not others. And if you think that money was going to help Somchai in his noodle shop, you're completely unaware of how the economy and politics work in Thailand. This is nothing more than hypocrisy. You know who brought in the closest thing they've had to universal healthcare? You got it - Thaksin. Despite the many decades in power, the Amart never managed to pull that off. Wonder why? You know who has been managing the education system in this country for decades? The same people. So you identify the farmers as having never been trained properly as the main issue (it's not, as you probably realize it's a multi-faceted and complex problem), you fail to note that the people whom they voted against had the power to change this but repeatedly did nothing about it for a long long time, then you place this unrealistic condition on top of the farmers as a basis for them receiving ANY money in future despite them being the major voting block. Nice. This is basically institutionalizing poverty and putting the blame for it on the rural poor.

While it's refreshing that someone on the other side would actually have some experience in farming, you would likely discover that farming in Holland and farming in Isarn are two completely different things. Perhaps you could provide these stupid farmers with the benefit of your experience? Fact is, if the Amart had bothered to do anything to improve the livelihoods or living conditions of the farmers, they'd have their votes and not have to continuously resort to seizing power via the military. Instead, they simply ignore them and continue to lecture them from on high, regularly interrupting their attempts to elect someone who will try to improve their situation. Was Yingluck a poor administrator and the rice scheme unsuccessful in achieving those goals? Seems so. But you know why nobody from the other side can point to their efforts and say "that's how you should have done it"? Because they never even tried.

My experience in farming is to get exploited by the farmers who are forever complaining about prices and saying they are poor while having big houses and nice cars. I done quite a bit of backbreaking work in the tulips to earn some extra money. But I have seen that the younger farmers that innovated did better then those who did not. Here there are farmers that innovate and they do well. 

 

You keep talking about the rich and connect and stuff like that I am more a defender of the middle class I have nothing with the rich at all. Thaksin and his ilk are rich too.. they just feed a few scraps to the poor. I have always found it unfair that a voting block gets all the benefits while others don't and yes that includes a noodle shop. I feel its unfair that when a farmer fails (and fails fails fails fails and does not change) is helped but someone setting up a noodle shop or something else and fails has to shoulder the burden of failure him / herself. The fact that farmer families were cut up is sad but its just progress.. farming is the past (small scale like it is now). If things go well their kids will have it better. But by keeping the farmers small scale you keep the poverty and problems for generations to come.

 

As for the education system.. junta... PTP.. democrats.. they all failed. (YL failed even more with her tablet scam.. care to report on that one). Thailand is pumping in massive amounts of money and getting almost no good returns. You cant blame anyone. I will applaud Thaksin for his healthcare.. however nobody not PTP nor Democrats has ever provided enough funding for it. Its going totally wrong right now the money from the rice program would have been better spend on the health system benefiting everyone. 

 

I am against the army its budget rise and made that clear in the past, i put it in other topics too.. reason Thailand is not progressing is its corruption. Everyone in power wants a cut and the anti corruption agencies work to slow and are paper tigers. 

[JCauto]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

My experience in farming is to get exploited by the farmers who are forever complaining about prices and saying they are poor while having big houses and nice cars. I done quite a bit of backbreaking work in the tulips to earn some extra money. But I have seen that the younger farmers that innovated did better then those who did not. Here there are farmers that innovate and they do well. 

 

You keep talking about the rich and connect and stuff like that I am more a defender of the middle class I have nothing with the rich at all. Thaksin and his ilk are rich too.. they just feed a few scraps to the poor. I have always found it unfair that a voting block gets all the benefits while others don't and yes that includes a noodle shop. I feel its unfair that when a farmer fails (and fails fails fails fails and does not change) is helped but someone setting up a noodle shop or something else and fails has to shoulder the burden of failure him / herself. The fact that farmer families were cut up is sad but its just progress.. farming is the past (small scale like it is now). If things go well their kids will have it better. But by keeping the farmers small scale you keep the poverty and problems for generations to come.

 

As for the education system.. junta... PTP.. democrats.. they all failed. (YL failed even more with her tablet scam.. care to report on that one). Thailand is pumping in massive amounts of money and getting almost no good returns. You cant blame anyone. I will applaud Thaksin for his healthcare.. however nobody not PTP nor Democrats has ever provided enough funding for it. Its going totally wrong right now the money from the rice program would have been better spend on the health system benefiting everyone. 

 

I am against the army its budget rise and made that clear in the past, i put it in other topics too.. reason Thailand is not progressing is its corruption. Everyone in power wants a cut and the anti corruption agencies work to slow and are paper tigers. 

I understand your point about Dutch farmers, and it's relevant to many farmers in the other countries of the West. But isn't that the inevitable end result of your proposed solution? You support farmers to consolidate, move from small-scale farming to other non-agricultural jobs, support the ones who stay to modernize and increase/improve production and then they prosper and drive around in nice cars and live in big houses? And what happens then? They continue to dominate politics disproportionately because there are political parties who can take advantage of the rules to gain larger political share than would be justified by their population because they occupy much more land area physically. So your solution is somewhat a non-solution based on your own experience in your own country. 

Yes, I understand you're defending the middle class - but you're doing so at the expense of the majority who are the poor. The middle class only exist in the cities. We're seeing all sorts of environmental and social problems as a result of the increasing urbanization of the developing world. Your solution would exacerbate this unless you're talking somehow of changing industry and production to increase the amount that occurs in rural areas. Something like a "One Tambon One Product" type thing that might spur some investment and maintain non-farm value-added jobs in the rural areas so the migration doesn't occur. Let's see, who implemented that policy idea? Oh right, it was Thaksin again! That nefarious evil guy! He's so clever at manipulating the rural people by inventing new policies that the previous governments might well have done themselves if they'd cared even a little bit. But they never did. Same like the health care. Same like decentralizing power and budget to the Tambons so rural people could choose what they wanted to do with their share of tax dollars/revenues. 

As to your postulation that farmers have been allowed to "fail and fail and fail" and still get helped, this is not actually true. They've been allowed to do so a few times, but before they get helped the government gets overthrown and the Amart take over, and from that point on, you can forget about any support for rural Thailand. Oh, except for Southern Rubber farmers. They get helped over and over again even as they fail and fail and fail. Because, after all, they're OUR farmers! As to your noodle shop owners, observe how they're now trying to get all the vendors off the street? This is going to help them? Well, it will help one group - the better off people who actually own or can rent a shop. So again, you're going to help the better off segment of the poor (the smallest part) at the expense of the poorer part (the larger part).

Regarding education and what spending ought to have been done with the rice program, we're in agreement. But that's the point. There is no substantive improvement in these issues when the Amart are in power, hence they're not going to address these fundamental structural issues either. So what is their basis for support? If you're going to get useless incompetent government that enriches itself at the expense of the country, I'd as soon get the one that provides more benefit to the poorest people and has demonstrated that it can implement some positive policies for rural areas than one that has never done so despite having all the power, means and time to do so in the past repeatedly. And yes, watching the military go on a shopping spree at the luxury weapons mall while whining about the rice scheme must be very satisfying for you. 

I do not claim that Thaksin or any other elected government of the Red persuasion would be competent, un-corrupt or otherwise much better than the alternative. Just that it would move things along the eventual path where they would develop the institutions and democratic values that lead to that. By your own words you recognize that there is not a major difference or improvement in the ones we get otherwise. So why not let the majority rule?

[Grubster]

3 minutes ago, JCauto said:

I understand your point about Dutch farmers, and it's relevant to many farmers in the other countries of the West. But isn't that the inevitable end result of your proposed solution? You support farmers to consolidate, move from small-scale farming to other non-agricultural jobs, support the ones who stay to modernize and increase/improve production and then they prosper and drive around in nice cars and live in big houses? And what happens then? They continue to dominate politics disproportionately because there are political parties who can take advantage of the rules to gain larger political share than would be justified by their population because they occupy much more land area physically. So your solution is somewhat a non-solution based on your own experience in your own country. 

Yes, I understand you're defending the middle class - but you're doing so at the expense of the majority who are the poor. The middle class only exist in the cities. We're seeing all sorts of environmental and social problems as a result of the increasing urbanization of the developing world. Your solution would exacerbate this unless you're talking somehow of changing industry and production to increase the amount that occurs in rural areas. Something like a "One Tambon One Product" type thing that might spur some investment and maintain non-farm value-added jobs in the rural areas so the migration doesn't occur. Let's see, who implemented that policy idea? Oh right, it was Thaksin again! That nefarious evil guy! He's so clever at manipulating the rural people by inventing new policies that the previous governments might well have done themselves if they'd cared even a little bit. But they never did. Same like the health care. Same like decentralizing power and budget to the Tambons so rural people could choose what they wanted to do with their share of tax dollars/revenues. 

As to your postulation that farmers have been allowed to "fail and fail and fail" and still get helped, this is not actually true. They've been allowed to do so a few times, but before they get helped the government gets overthrown and the Amart take over, and from that point on, you can forget about any support for rural Thailand. Oh, except for Southern Rubber farmers. They get helped over and over again even as they fail and fail and fail. Because, after all, they're OUR farmers! As to your noodle shop owners, observe how they're now trying to get all the vendors off the street? This is going to help them? Well, it will help one group - the better off people who actually own or can rent a shop. So again, you're going to help the better off segment of the poor (the smallest part) at the expense of the poorer part (the larger part).

Regarding education and what spending ought to have been done with the rice program, we're in agreement. But that's the point. There is no substantive improvement in these issues when the Amart are in power, hence they're not going to address these fundamental structural issues either. So what is their basis for support? If you're going to get useless incompetent government that enriches itself at the expense of the country, I'd as soon get the one that provides more benefit to the poorest people and has demonstrated that it can implement some positive policies for rural areas than one that has never done so despite having all the power, means and time to do so in the past repeatedly. And yes, watching the military go on a shopping spree at the luxury weapons mall while whining about the rice scheme must be very satisfying for you. 

I do not claim that Thaksin or any other elected government of the Red persuasion would be competent, un-corrupt or otherwise much better than the alternative. Just that it would move things along the eventual path where they would develop the institutions and democratic values that lead to that. By your own words you recognize that there is not a major difference or improvement in the ones we get otherwise. So why not let the majority rule?

If you want to see subsidies for farmers just wait till the banks and the wealthy own the land, then you will see massive farm subsidies, Hi-Sos feed Hi-Sos .

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, JCauto said:

I understand your point about Dutch farmers, and it's relevant to many farmers in the other countries of the West. But isn't that the inevitable end result of your proposed solution? You support farmers to consolidate, move from small-scale farming to other non-agricultural jobs, support the ones who stay to modernize and increase/improve production and then they prosper and drive around in nice cars and live in big houses? And what happens then? They continue to dominate politics disproportionately because there are political parties who can take advantage of the rules to gain larger political share than would be justified by their population because they occupy much more land area physically. So your solution is somewhat a non-solution based on your own experience in your own country. 

Yes, I understand you're defending the middle class - but you're doing so at the expense of the majority who are the poor. The middle class only exist in the cities. We're seeing all sorts of environmental and social problems as a result of the increasing urbanization of the developing world. Your solution would exacerbate this unless you're talking somehow of changing industry and production to increase the amount that occurs in rural areas. Something like a "One Tambon One Product" type thing that might spur some investment and maintain non-farm value-added jobs in the rural areas so the migration doesn't occur. Let's see, who implemented that policy idea? Oh right, it was Thaksin again! That nefarious evil guy! He's so clever at manipulating the rural people by inventing new policies that the previous governments might well have done themselves if they'd cared even a little bit. But they never did. Same like the health care. Same like decentralizing power and budget to the Tambons so rural people could choose what they wanted to do with their share of tax dollars/revenues. 

As to your postulation that farmers have been allowed to "fail and fail and fail" and still get helped, this is not actually true. They've been allowed to do so a few times, but before they get helped the government gets overthrown and the Amart take over, and from that point on, you can forget about any support for rural Thailand. Oh, except for Southern Rubber farmers. They get helped over and over again even as they fail and fail and fail. Because, after all, they're OUR farmers! As to your noodle shop owners, observe how they're now trying to get all the vendors off the street? This is going to help them? Well, it will help one group - the better off people who actually own or can rent a shop. So again, you're going to help the better off segment of the poor (the smallest part) at the expense of the poorer part (the larger part).

Regarding education and what spending ought to have been done with the rice program, we're in agreement. But that's the point. There is no substantive improvement in these issues when the Amart are in power, hence they're not going to address these fundamental structural issues either. So what is their basis for support? If you're going to get useless incompetent government that enriches itself at the expense of the country, I'd as soon get the one that provides more benefit to the poorest people and has demonstrated that it can implement some positive policies for rural areas than one that has never done so despite having all the power, means and time to do so in the past repeatedly. And yes, watching the military go on a shopping spree at the luxury weapons mall while whining about the rice scheme must be very satisfying for you. 

I do not claim that Thaksin or any other elected government of the Red persuasion would be competent, un-corrupt or otherwise much better than the alternative. Just that it would move things along the eventual path where they would develop the institutions and democratic values that lead to that. By your own words you recognize that there is not a major difference or improvement in the ones we get otherwise. So why not let the majority rule?

Oh don't get me wrong I want the junta to leave, just worry about what we will get after them because Thaksin is a problem. I do see that Thailand has to move away from small scale farming.. it just does not work. Your wrong in your assessment that they have been allowed to fail only under PTP.. current junta is giving them money too and so did the democrats, all because they are a major power. 

 

Farmers should not be supporters (rubber farmers are farmers I am not talking only about rice farmers), I am also against all those subsidies in the West. 

 

The problem here is we will never get a good government until organisations like the NACC are really punishing corruption and taking back the corrupt money. Now it just pays to be in power and be corrupt be it junta.. democrats or PTP. As long as these organisations are ineffective nothing will change. Corruption (nepotism is a form of corruption) is what is bringing this country down. The money is not being spend good too much is siphoned off and too much corruption. I supported the junta because i wanted them to at least punish some of the corruption of the PTP and so they did. Now they have been in power enough and should be gone. 

 

All the extra checks and balances are a nice thing too.. though I don't have that much faith in it as money is just so powerful here. Pay off the right people and no matter if your red yellow or army you can do what you want and keep your corrupt earnings. I

[dominique355]

The question is not why people hate the military, but why the military hate and don't trust people, their people, the people who did not call them but keep paying them.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, Srikcir said:

I don't think Suthep's PDRC, the Constitutional Court nor Prayut's coup gave her such an option.

But that's enough about your favorite personality. Onward to loving the coup!

 

2 hours ago, robblok said:

She had plenty of time to do something before she stepped down, when she still had the power. But she did no such thing again more incompetence on her side. (onward defender of incompetence and corruption). As a result people killed themselves because of her oversight and negligence. 

Yes the problems of the Yingluck/PTP government were widely known, which is why there should have been an election.  It was the ideal time to reduce the power of the PTP democratically.

 

Democracy doesn't offer quick fixes to problems.  However 75 years of coups and military governments in Thailand have demonstrated that military rule also doesn't offer any quick fixes, though it does protect the elite.

[bill59]

Last I checked the military stole the government from the people. They're a little pissed!


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect