Good start, not enough: EU leaders mull May's Brexit offer

[nong38]

The UK cannot drop the plan, the public voted to leave, it seems to be that its the EU, if what we read and hear is to be believed, who have drawn the red lines and is not prepared to negotiate on certain issues. I hope that this approach is not they way it ends, I hope that a good deal for both sides can be done, its early days but I also believe that when the outcome is decided that others may well want to consider their position within the EU.

In the UK Cameron was pushed into a referendum, the outcome of which he seemed surprised at although a trip round the country out of London might have told a different story. In other countries of the EU there may well be a popular vote for leaving if the politicians will dare to give the public a choice.

[rockingrobin]

12 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Thanks, makes tedious reading, but essentially says much the same as the UK proposal.

There are some trap doors that the EU likes to see in case they screw up.

The jurisdiction of the ECJ is one, and actual dates to go with time spans is another, and I expect there are more if you examine it carefully.

 

Why haven't we seen this in the British Press? I guess because it isn't controversial enough, and is actually a very small indicator the EU will play ball.

I have not seen the UK proposal, understand it is going to the EU on monday.

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, nong38 said:

The UK cannot drop the plan, the public voted to leave, it seems to be that its the EU, if what we read and hear is to be believed, who have drawn the red lines and is not prepared to negotiate on certain issues. I hope that this approach is not they way it ends, I hope that a good deal for both sides can be done, its early days but I also believe that when the outcome is decided that others may well want to consider their position within the EU.

In the UK Cameron was pushed into a referendum, the outcome of which he seemed surprised at although a trip round the country out of London might have told a different story. In other countries of the EU there may well be a popular vote for leaving if the politicians will dare to give the public a choice.

TBH if we can't come away amicably i'd be quite happy to see a forced exit followed by divorce based on desertion with UK getting the 'female' share.

 

In the meantime...

 

Government pledges to help improve access to UK markets for world’s poorest countries post-Brexit

Edited June 25, 2017 by evadgib

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, nong38 said:

The UK cannot drop the plan, the public voted to leave, it seems to be that its the EU, if what we read and hear is to be believed, who have drawn the red lines and is not prepared to negotiate on certain issues. I hope that this approach is not they way it ends, I hope that a good deal for both sides can be done, its early days but I also believe that when the outcome is decided that others may well want to consider their position within the EU.

In the UK Cameron was pushed into a referendum, the outcome of which he seemed surprised at although a trip round the country out of London might have told a different story. In other countries of the EU there may well be a popular vote for leaving if the politicians will dare to give the public a choice.

Nonsense. It was a political decision to hold the referendum. If there's enough public support to hold another and the MPs pass a bill authorizing it, it can be done.  In other words, another political decision will be taken. It's so convenient to frame the rejection of a second referendum as a matter of principle when the principle happens to align with the the results one desires.

[dunroaming]

21 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

I would imagine also you voted Labour in the election on the promise of more money for everything, by borrowing vast amounts and letting the great grandchildren pay for it...

You see you are making presumptions (like I often do),  I have never and would never vote for labour with their mindset.  I voted against the government and indeed ousted the Tory candidate but it was not for labour.  It was a protest vote along with many others.  I have a son growing up in the UK and everything I want now is for his future.  That is why I am passionate about the way the country is being screwed up by the present government.  What I wanted in the election (as I have said here many times) was for the Tories to stay in but with a reduced majority so that they couldn't push through the ludicrous hard brexit without being held to account.  That has been achieved and quite rightly they now have changed tack and have accepted a much softer approach. I do believe that if we re-visited brexit it would fail but that isn't going to happen so we have to make the best out of it.  My frustration is the dogged denial that people have that brexit will still deliver what they voted for.  I am still waiting for someone explain what they think they will achieve through brexit.  Stupid comments like "Quite simply to get that dinosaur relic stuck in a 20th Century time warp called the EU off the UK's back" doesn't explain what will actually be gained through leaving. 

 

20 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Immigration has to be the same until (a deal is reached and) we leave.

If we "leave" but stay in the single market immigration , and just about everything will be the same as staying in.

Absolutely it will be the same as staying except we won't have any say and we won't have a seat at the table.  How clever will that be!

[nong38]

On 6/25/2017 at 7:07 AM, ilostmypassword said:

Nonsense. It was a political decision to hold the referendum. If there's enough public support to hold another and the MPs pass a bill authorizing it, it can be done.  In other words, another political decision will be taken. It's so convenient to frame the rejection of a second referendum as a matter of principle when the principle happens to align with the the results one desires.

There will be no second referendum whether you like it or not, your views are the ones peddled by the people in Brussels whereby if the result did not go the way it should have, we will have another go until you get it right.

[ilostmypassword]

5 minutes ago, nong38 said:

There will be no second referendum whether you like it or not, your views are the ones peddled by the people in Brussels whereby if the result did not go the way it should have, we will have another go until you get it right.

Are you that secret party, hinted at and whispered about, in charge of the political future of the UK? If so, I concede that you speak with absolute authority. If not, you're just some punter making a prediction.

[nong38]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

Are you that secret party, hinted at and whispered about, in charge of the political future of the UK? If so, I concede that you speak with absolute authority. If not, you're just some punter making a prediction.

Like yourself then, I have my opinion which is diametrically opposite to yours, my view of what will happen in the future of the UK is only my opinion, predicting the future is fraught with danger and you only have to look at the recent GE to see that, May thought it would be a walkover. Her campaign was the worst I can remember, she did not focus or was not allowed to focus on the real issues, she did not involve her cabinet and she let Corbyn close the gap, appear as an allround good chap and dictate the race, he is good on the hustings, she is not, he can promise the earth and he sounds believable, Throw in the terrorist activity and the predictable result suddenly changed.

It has been a year now since the referendum and still there are those who refuse to accept the result that the British public voted to leave the EU, I imagine you are one of those people still clinging to the view that things will change and we will remain in the EU and thus a second referendum is still an option because people who voted to leave did not understand what they were voting for.

My reason for voting was to regain control of our own country again, if the Remainers had won I would have accepted that result, the pound would have given us a better exchange rate and nothing would have appeared to change, but change is happening all the time and you and I can only guess at where the direction of the EU would have taken us, for me a direction not of my choosing so I am glad we voted to leave. I may not see the benefits in my time but my children will I hope, we cannot be certain but I think I will be proved right, you are free to differ.

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, nong38 said:

Like yourself then, I have my opinion which is diametrically opposite to yours, my view of what will happen in the future of the UK is only my opinion, predicting the future is fraught with danger and you only have to look at the recent GE to see that, May thought it would be a walkover. Her campaign was the worst I can remember, she did not focus or was not allowed to focus on the real issues, she did not involve her cabinet and she let Corbyn close the gap, appear as an allround good chap and dictate the race, he is good on the hustings, she is not, he can promise the earth and he sounds believable, Throw in the terrorist activity and the predictable result suddenly changed.

It has been a year now since the referendum and still there are those who refuse to accept the result that the British public voted to leave the EU, I imagine you are one of those people still clinging to the view that things will change and we will remain in the EU and thus a second referendum is still an option because people who voted to leave did not understand what they were voting for.

My reason for voting was to regain control of our own country again, if the Remainers had won I would have accepted that result, the pound would have given us a better exchange rate and nothing would have appeared to change, but change is happening all the time and you and I can only guess at where the direction of the EU would have taken us, for me a direction not of my choosing so I am glad we voted to leave. I may not see the benefits in my time but my children will I hope, we cannot be certain but I think I will be proved right, you are free to differ.

All I did was point out that you made a prediction that sounded like you believed you were the person in charge. This is a political question and the politics of Brexit can change as events develop.

[Grouse]

13 minutes ago, nong38 said:

Like yourself then, I have my opinion which is diametrically opposite to yours, my view of what will happen in the future of the UK is only my opinion, predicting the future is fraught with danger and you only have to look at the recent GE to see that, May thought it would be a walkover. Her campaign was the worst I can remember, she did not focus or was not allowed to focus on the real issues, she did not involve her cabinet and she let Corbyn close the gap, appear as an allround good chap and dictate the race, he is good on the hustings, she is not, he can promise the earth and he sounds believable, Throw in the terrorist activity and the predictable result suddenly changed.

It has been a year now since the referendum and still there are those who refuse to accept the result that the British public voted to leave the EU, I imagine you are one of those people still clinging to the view that things will change and we will remain in the EU and thus a second referendum is still an option because people who voted to leave did not understand what they were voting for.

My reason for voting was to regain control of our own country again, if the Remainers had won I would have accepted that result, the pound would have given us a better exchange rate and nothing would have appeared to change, but change is happening all the time and you and I can only guess at where the direction of the EU would have taken us, for me a direction not of my choosing so I am glad we voted to leave. I may not see the benefits in my time but my children will I hope, we cannot be certain but I think I will be proved right, you are free to differ.

We have always had sovereignty. TM said that herself

 

So what is the benefit? None.

 

So let's get on with the myriad tasks that frankly embarrass me.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 6/25/2017 at 7:56 PM, dunroaming said:

You see you are making presumptions (like I often do),  I have never and would never vote for labour with their mindset.  I voted against the government and indeed ousted the Tory candidate but it was not for labour.  It was a protest vote along with many others.  I have a son growing up in the UK and everything I want now is for his future.  That is why I am passionate about the way the country is being screwed up by the present government.  What I wanted in the election (as I have said here many times) was for the Tories to stay in but with a reduced majority so that they couldn't push through the ludicrous hard brexit without being held to account.  That has been achieved and quite rightly they now have changed tack and have accepted a much softer approach. I do believe that if we re-visited brexit it would fail but that isn't going to happen so we have to make the best out of it.  My frustration is the dogged denial that people have that brexit will still deliver what they voted for.  I am still waiting for someone explain what they think they will achieve through brexit.  Stupid comments like "Quite simply to get that dinosaur relic stuck in a 20th Century time warp called the EU off the UK's back" doesn't explain what will actually be gained through leaving. 

 

Absolutely it will be the same as staying except we won't have any say and we won't have a seat at the table.  How clever will that be!

So quite simply, what is the point of a "soft Brexit?"

There is no point.

However, I did come across this proposal in another thread, read it. It is a compromise that might work, certainly in the immediate situation:

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/819151/Brexit-news-Britain-join-Efta-trade-talks-EU-Carl-Baudenbacher

The article was in The Express admittedly so will put many off even reading it but idea does address many of the gaps between the pro and anti EU stance.

I too have a young son working in the UK, but I can see no advantage in remaining the EU for his future, likely the opposite.

Free movement of people (not necessarily workers) is no benefit to the UK. There will still be visas for those with jobs to go either way. If you have the needed skills it should make little difference. It should stop indiscriminate mass migration though.

Cheers

(PS. Sorry I "imagined" not presumed, as I was hoping you would confirm what you did,which you have.)

 

 

Edited June 26, 2017 by George FmplesdaCosteedback