Cohousing And Permaculture

[wjta]

Has anyone thought of the possibilities of cohousing development in Thailand? It is very successful in Europe (esp Denmark), but has limited success in the US because of zoning regulations there. The idea is to design for the right balance of privacy and community instead of centering everything around the bloody automobile.

We farangs drive up property values when we build houses. Why not work together so we benefit each other? Cohousing provides all the benefits of an upscale development at the cost of land + infrastructure. Plus we can design what we like. Myself, I'm into organic vegies (permaculture/biodynamic), tropical waterscape, and Asian-inspired architecture (ala Aman Puri). I guess I like Phuket as a location, but I'm flexible--I do need DSL, though.

[khunlom]

Good to see someone else is thinking along the same lines......

We are looking for land around Trat Province, near to the Eastern Isles (Koh Chang, Koh Mak, Koh Kut, Koh Wai) as the place offers some real seclusion, and is close to undiscovered mainland beaches. Not too expensive yet either!!!

There's even a Teso Lotus and Airport not too far away!

Anyway.................good to network.........

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Good to see someone else is thinking along the same lines......

We are looking for land around Trat Province, near to the Eastern Isles (Koh Chang, Koh Mak, Koh Kut, Koh Wai) as the place offers some real seclusion, and is close to undiscovered mainland beaches. Not too expensive yet either!!!

There's even a Teso Lotus and Airport not too far away!

Anyway.................good to network.........

How will you overcome the land ownership issues ?

[wjta]

My e-mail address is [email protected]. Koh Chang is a little remote for me, but if there is an airport nearby and plenty of fresh water, I'd like to take a look. I'll be in Phuket at the beginning of July, but I'm just renting and can hop on a plane to Bangkok to visit whenever.

Cohousing has worked out what does and doesn't work in community through practical experience. My recollection of the key principles are:

1. Use tried and tested methods of holding title. Usually a condominium association works best. Everyone needs to be free to own and sell their own share.

2. No ideological bar to ownership. Anyone who can contribute their share of money or sweat equity is welcome. This ensures personal freedom and liquidity of the investment.

3. Design for both privacy and daily contact. This means encouraging people to walk instead of drive wherever possible.

4. Maximize sharing. One big common swimming pool, vegie garden, commercial kitchen, or party room is nicer than everyone trying to build and maintain their own. Everyone still has a private kitchen--common meals are best when not compulsory.

Let me know what you think.

William

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The authorities may well see the plan as foreign ownership of land which, as you know, is a big no no hereabouts

[wjta]

You asked a question regarding land ownership. I partly addressed that, but I think you mean as a foreigner.

I'd suggest putting the land title in the name of a corporation owned 51% by Thais which then leases the land to the individual owners for three consecutive 30-year leases.

Owners get a 90-year lease, all of their personal improvements, and a share in the corporation.

I'd need to talk to a Thai lawyer to work out the details, but this much should work.

My friend in Phuket just paid $250,000 USD for a 90-year lease on a condo there, so the idea of three consecutive leases appears to be valid.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

As long as you are thinking about it. No pomplem

[taxexile]

wasn't there a book and a film about something like that called the "beach".?

a group of foriegners wanting to develop a utopian set up in thailand.

[SeaVisionBurma]

a group of foriegners wanting to develop a utopian set up in thailand.

I just had a really good soapy massage at a place called Utopia in Bangkok the other night - is that similar? The sharing theme seemed to be in play there, as I noticed some of the ladies would go off with groups of fellows together, laughing a lot, and saying something about feeling great shortly.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

a group of foriegners wanting to develop a utopian set up in thailand.

I just had a really good soapy massage at a place called Utopia in Bangkok the other night - is that similar? The sharing theme seemed to be in play there, as I noticed some of the ladies would go off with groups of fellows together, laughing a lot, and saying something about feeling great shortly.

Is there a Mrs Sea Vision Burma ? If so you had best deny her viewing computer access awhile lest the duck gets fed.

[taxexile]

and saying something about feeling great shortly.

sure it wasn't "feeling a shorty"

[SeaVisionBurma]

Is there a Mrs Sea Vision Burma ?  If so you had best deny her viewing computer access awhile lest the duck gets fed.

Thanks for the advice, Doc. Don't worry about Mrs SVB, she has not taken much of an interest in the forum, and of course my visit to Utopia was purely educational.

sure it wasn't "feeling a shorty"

tax I need a few minutes to pick myself up off the floor

[piet pompies]

Dear wjita,

concept is OK. someting like this exists in Samui. Your idea of 51% Thai is not valid for a corporation to hold land. see a major law frim which can help you if problems arise. eg. Johnson Stokes and Master, or Baker and Mackenzie or other. If you don't have 1m USD or more, it is not practical, unless you have a Thai wife you can trust and you want to do it in another pleasant area eg. Mekhong riverbank. Please remember the part about the law firm!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Is there a Mrs Sea Vision Burma ?  If so you had best deny her viewing computer access awhile lest the duck gets fed.

Thanks for the advice, Doc. Don't worry about Mrs SVB, she has not taken much of an interest in the forum, and of course my visit to Utopia was purely educational.

sure it wasn't "feeling a shorty"

tax I need a few minutes to pick myself up off the floor

Feeling a "shorty" is OK as long as it is for educational purposes and Mrs SVB remains disinterested in the forum. Any ducks in Burma SVB ?

[SeaVisionBurma]

Feeling a "shorty" is OK as long as it is for educational purposes and Mrs SVB remains disinterested in the forum. Any ducks in Burma SVB ?

Yes, plenty of ducks here Doc, but fortunately they are of the variety that cannot be forced to eat chopped up willys.

I'm back in Perth on a short holiday by the way, and its bl**dy freezing here. 3.3 when I got off the plane!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

There's a break Sea Vision. Vegetarian ducks should be mandatory throughout the Asian region. Enjoy your break in the Sand Groper's Land.

[wjta]

Hey Taxelle, I'm amazed at your superficial reply. Do you think that "the Beach" had anything to do with Thailand? Is what you know about Thailand (and life) based on such bad movies? If so, you must believe that there are man-eating sharks in Koh Pipi! You must be afraid to go swimming in Thailand, which is nobody's loss but your own!

Cohousing is about shared investment and responsibility with traditional forms of ownership. It isn't an escapist fantasy for drifters and pot-heads. It simply questions the wisdom of designing communities as though automobiles are more important than people. People who just want to take what they can get out of life while giving as little as possible in return need not apply.

If the tone of the replies in this forum is any indicator, ex-pats may have little interest in actually *building* anything in Thailand. Sadly, Thailand is full of pretas (hungry ghosts), who have rejected their ancestors and wander endlessly hoping to find something to ease the ache in their huge distended bellies. But their mouths are so tiny, they can't actually swallow anything.

I can only pray that the Mother of Compassion opens all our mouths so we can enjoy the banquet of love that this world offers!

[taxexile]

well thanks for putting me straight on that wjta , you actually sound remarkably like one of the characters out of that film/book that i superficially mentioned earlier.

california and wales were full of such set ups 20 or 30 years ago until they all fell apart through petty squabbling and jealousies and people leaving to move on and live in the real world.

your ideas may sound fine on paper or when earnestly discussed sitting on the veranda of a beach hut during your gap year but they dont take into account the practicalities of life or the darker side of human nature.

If the tone of the replies in this forum is any indicator, ex-pats may have little interest in actually *building* anything in Thailand. Sadly, Thailand is full of pretas (hungry ghosts), who have rejected their ancestors and wander endlessly hoping to find something to ease the ache in their huge distended bellies. But their mouths are so tiny, they can't actually swallow anything.

i'll take the diesel,jaded expats and the ghosts anytime over the hairbrained nirvana that you are proposing. you wouldnt last ten minutes in thailand.

I can only pray that the Mother of Compassion opens all our mouths so we can enjoy the banquet of love that this world offers!

and i can only pray that the mother of all dreamers and her followers dont set up camp anywhere near "taxexile towers".

[maerim]

california and wales were full of such set ups 20 or 30 years ago until they all fell apart through petty squabbling and jealousies and people leaving to move on and live in the real world.

If on the other hand you do decide to build this paradise on earth may I suggest that the investors make very sure that they have rich parents to bail them out when the crunch ( and it will ) comes.

There is one of these " utopias" in Lampeter in Wales the U.K. propped up by dole contributions and people with more money than sense.

[Khun Larry]

Cohousing is about shared investment and responsibility with traditional forms of ownership. It isn't an escapist fantasy for drifters and pot-heads. It simply questions the wisdom of designing communities as though automobiles are more important than people. People who just want to take what they can get out of life while giving as little as possible in return need not apply.

This concept probably works best with a homogenious group which may be available in Europe.

Sharing investment will scare off most farangs. Too risky in LOS.

Only areas with high concentration of farangs are BKK and tourist areas. Don't see the fit in either place. Never met anyone interrested in building something here, seems to be discouraged by various laws.

Not too many farangs I know with automobiles.

Basically sounds like a great concept at the wrong time and place and target audience.

Chookdee wjta

[wjta]

It just isn't helpful to confuse cohousing with communes and other ideological forms of intentional community. Rule number one in the current cohousing movement is to avoid all ideology. What I am talking about is simply a way to design communities to recreate old-fashioned neighborhoods where people used to know their neighbors.

Cohousing communities are prospering all over the states. They sell out before the foundations are poured and they have the same investment value as any other condominium investment.

Khun Larry provides rational discouragement for which I'm grateful. The point of a forum should be rational discussion and not hysteria and misinformation. I've made previous attempts to generate interest on the ground in Chiengmai where I lived for about a year (I have an 8-year old son born there in 1995) so I have no illusions about how easy it is to get farangs in Thailand to do anything.

The point of my posting was to see if anything had changed, and I'm grateful for rational criticism about the viability of the ideas I'm proposing. The change that I'm observing is that the U.S. is becoming an increasingly unfriendly place for middle-class retirees, while Thailand appears to be opening its doors. I think it will be interesting to see what happens in the next five years.

Given how easy it is now to get a retirement visa to live in Thailand (just got mine :-) and the number of baby boomers in the States with minimal retirement portfolios (like me :-), I don't think the idea of building community in Thailand is as absurd as trying to retire in the U.S. on social security. I may change my mind about it myself, but I think it is an idea worthy of serious debate without confusing the real issues with hysterical stereotypes.

Despite the obstacles to ownership, etc. I know for a fact that one can build something very nice in Thailand with reasonable resale value using the equity from a single California home, where the property taxes alone are enough to live comfortably in Thailand. Something extraordinary could be created through a cooperative venture, but not everyone who reads this forum may be able to appreciate that vision.

[Khun Larry]

The change that I'm observing is that the U.S. is becoming an increasingly unfriendly place for middle-class retirees, while Thailand appears to be opening its doors.  I think it will be interesting to see what happens in the next five years.

I wouldn't say the US is unfriendly, but somewhat boring for the single guy especially in the suburbs. Seems to me Thailand is closing its doors more than opening them, attitude wise that is.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Land ownership remains a major hurdle to be overcome.

[dragen]

Interesting stuff guys, I'm a recent arrival from NZ and there are some great urban co-housing models working at home - EarthSong is one with 35 homes combined with the communal buildings and grounds.

Another Auckland development is in co-operation between the latest in sustainable and low-energy technologies combined with traditional Maori community values - will be interesting to see when the rest of it is completed.

Interested to know of any Permaculture that is being done here in Thailand; if anyone knows of anything?

[wjta]

Nice to have a posting from Dragen, who actually knows what cohousing is. I'd like to connect with a group of people who are interested in doing permaculture in the context of a cohousing development. There is a couple near Pitsanulok Sawowanee and Jim, whom I haven't met:

http://www.ncacs.org/news_thailand.htm

They had a permaculture training there last year that I missed cause I was stuck at my desk in the USA. They recently had problems with their neighbors and an out-of-control agricultural fire that well illustrate the problems of trying to live in a remote location in Thailand without a support group.

I think Thailand is the absolute best place for cohousing because there are no zoning restrictions regarding mixed use, so you can have businesses, retail sales, short-term rentals, restaurants, massage, etc. on a single site, which makes the whole thing more economically and culturally interesting. And the amenities and services that can be shared in Thailand are pretty much unlimited and the shared cost would be minimal.

Also, the importance of group ownership in Thailand is greater than elsewhere, because you are otherwise at the mercy of your neighbors. E.g. Taksin might turn that beautiful hill next door into a gravel quarry, and even if you live with bars on your windows you still lose your stuff when you are away from home. Cohousing also addresses the issue of boredom and isolation that otherwise afflicts the beautiful Thai countryside.

That said, there is the well-known bar to ownership by foreigners. However, I suspect there are creative solutions, such as a 90-year lease from a Thai corporation with shares in the corporation, or even outright ownership of a condominium, which I believe is allowed under some circumstances.

[jaideeguy]

Interesting thread and amazed that it hasn't gone any further since 2004. The concept sounds do-able to me, but can see some possible personality conflicts as the average falang expat is somewhat of a loner [as I am] and privacy should be major consideration.

I had envisioned something like the OP mentioned, but with lots of space between houses [minimum 3-5 rai ea] with a communal garden and central common structure with swimming pool with shared maintenance costs.

I can see it succeding with a smallish group 5-7 investors and should definately have an odd number so that there can be majority rule on decisions.

With the current Thai lease laws, it could be structured so that a person could be 'bought out' or could 'sell out' if needed.

I've been 'going it alone' with Thai wife [and kids] up in Chiang Mai for 8 yrs now and altho I own my own house and live a somewhat solitary life, this concept does still appeal to me.