Thai definition of urban & suburban

[troysantos]

:)

Anyone know? I've looked on internet, including the National Statistical Office's website but haven't found a definition of urban or sub-urban/peri-urban, not even the Thai words เมือง & ชานเมือง. If anyone has a spare minute (or more!) and isn't busy with anything else, please give a look around and help this poor farang who hasn't found an answer  I've looked on the Thai and English Wikipedia entries for these terms and done general internet searches, I've asked the local municipal office ... coming up empty. But I did see one English language website that says these definitions are determined by a country's national statistical offices. 

:)

[wildewillie89]

1 hour ago, troysantos said:

เมือง & ชานเมือง

Doesn't the first word just mean city?

And the second word just mean the outskirts of the city? Not rural, but not the centre point of the city.

 

So the same as the English definition?

[troysantos]

1 hour ago, wildewillie89 said:

Doesn't the first word just mean city?

And the second word just mean the outskirts of the city? Not rural, but not the centre point of the city.

 

So the same as the English definition?

:)

Yep, they translate as city and suburb, but I want definitions, either in Thai or in English, as defined by the Thai gov't! Since posting this, I decided to ask on Pantip Forum, and have gotten a response. A lady said to go to a gov't website where there's lotsa info. Indeed there is. I didn't find the detailed definition that I was expecting, but got what I want just the same 

:)

[wildewillie89]

1 minute ago, troysantos said:

:)

Yep, they translate as city and suburb, but I want definitions, either in Thai or in English, as defined by the Thai gov't! Since posting this, I decided to ask on Pantip Forum, and have gotten a response. A lady said to go to a gov't website where there's lotsa info. Indeed there is. I didn't find the detailed definition that I was expecting, but got what I want just the same 

:)

Legal definitions? I think that would be a level of Thai language that few Thai's would even understand lol

[troysantos]

2 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

Legal definitions? I think that would be a level of Thai language that few Thai's would even understand lol

But you know ... it was worth a shot. The info I found is in Thai, and pretty easy to understand. It is a document using pretty simple terms, not like legal jargon :) 

[Chou Anou]

2 hours ago, wildewillie89 said:

Legal definitions? I think that would be a level of Thai language that few Thai's would even understand lol

Why would you say something like that?  Based on my experience, your statement is highly misinformed.

 

Thais, even low-educated Thais, tend to have a quite large vocabulary of official and legal terms, including administrative ones.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say that comparing the vocabulary of the average Thai with only a middle-school education with their American counterpart (I chose "American" because that's where I'm from, and besides Thailand, that's where I have the most experience talking to both educated and low-educated people), the Thai will generally have a much more sophisticated and extensive vocabulary.  Take, for example, a statement like, "well, they may understand the theory involved, but they don't get the execution or application correct."  I can't imagine such a statement in a conversation with a fellow American who has only completed middle school, but that exact statement has come up quite often in my conversations with low-educated Thais.

 

Anyway, I think it's very interesting...and probably due to Thais needing to know a fairly wide range of formal vocabulary in order to converse properly (the whole social hierarchy thing, and how it is often encoded in vocabulary) with government officials, etc....but as I said, the reality of the average Thai's knowledge of abstract and complex vocabulary is pretty much the polar opposite of what you claim in your post.

[wildewillie89]

10 hours ago, Chou Anou said:

Why would you say something like that?  Based on my experience, your statement is highly misinformed.

 

Thais, even low-educated Thais, tend to have a quite large vocabulary of official and legal terms, including administrative ones.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say that comparing the vocabulary of the average Thai with only a middle-school education with their American counterpart (I chose "American" because that's where I'm from, and besides Thailand, that's where I have the most experience talking to both educated and low-educated people), the Thai will generally have a much more sophisticated and extensive vocabulary.  Take, for example, a statement like, "well, they may understand the theory involved, but they don't get the execution or application correct."  I can't imagine such a statement in a conversation with a fellow American who has only completed middle school, but that exact statement has come up quite often in my conversations with low-educated Thais.

 

Anyway, I think it's very interesting...and probably due to Thais needing to know a fairly wide range of formal vocabulary in order to converse properly (the whole social hierarchy thing, and how it is often encoded in vocabulary) with government officials, etc....but as I said, the reality of the average Thai's knowledge of abstract and complex vocabulary is pretty much the polar opposite of what you claim in your post.

One, we are talking all of Thailand, not Bangkok where students (from memory), receive 4 times more funding per head on education. Distribution of educational funds is quite interesting in Thai. Not saying you were directly talking about BKK, just putting it out there.

Maybe we have different experiences then (as everyone does in the country).

Seeing as the majority of 'bachelor' educated Thais I have found find the 'Thai' component of the government job entrance exam the hardest (out of your usual English, science, maths, etc), then it stands to reason that your non-educated (most of the country), would probably find the relevant definitions difficult (if the 'educated' cant even pass the language needed to be used in a government job). These people who do pass are usually from your 'better' universities if you like also (ranked top 600-700 in the world - top 10 in Thailand). It is one reason they are respected in society and must be listened to.  

I used to work with a couple of people who had PhD's in the maths and science fields and were able to pass all components of the test, except the 'Thai' part. They too went to top 10 universities. I work within a government institution, and my colleagues have the same problem. My family also work within government institutions and our friends show me their test results. They can pass the English component no worries, but fail the Thai component. 

Seeing as the definitions wanted would have most probably been written in a harder style of language, as all countries do tend to write legal definitions in the type of language you need to pay someone to comprehend for you, then yes, I find few Thais would probably understand it. 

[Chou Anou]

32 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

One, we are talking all of Thailand, not Bangkok where students (from memory), receive 4 times more funding per head on education. Distribution of educational funds is quite interesting in Thai. Not saying you were directly talking about BKK, just putting it out there.

Maybe we have different experiences then (as everyone does in the country).

Seeing as the majority of 'bachelor' educated Thais I have found find the 'Thai' component of the government job entrance exam the hardest (out of your usual English, science, maths, etc), then it stands to reason that your non-educated (most of the country), would probably find the relevant definitions difficult (if the 'educated' cant even pass the language needed to be used in a government job). These people who do pass are usually from your 'better' universities if you like also (ranked top 600-700 in the world - top 10 in Thailand). It is one reason they are respected in society and must be listened to.  

I used to work with a couple of people who had PhD's in the maths and science fields and were able to pass all components of the test, except the 'Thai' part. They too went to top 10 universities. I work within a government institution, and my colleagues have the same problem. My family also work within government institutions and our friends show me their test results. They can pass the English component no worries, but fail the Thai component. 

Seeing as the definitions wanted would have most probably been written in a harder style of language, as all countries do tend to write legal definitions in the type of language you need to pay someone to comprehend for you, then yes, I find few Thais would probably understand it. 

Well, I certainly wasn't saying that in general, Thai education isn't crap, because I know it is...and I don't know what exactly comprises those exams you refer to...but I would think poor education would manifest itself more in poor analytical skills more than in lack of vocabulary.  At any rate, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find an adult Thai who didn't know the term ชามเมือง, for instance.

 

It is interesting to me the level of general "complex" vocabulary--again, in my experience--that one finds not just among low-educated Thais, but also among similar groups in neighboring countries, especially when one compares that knowledge to what I perceive to be a much lower level of complex vocabulary among Westerners without a great deal of education.  I teach a Southeast Asian language (not Thai), and I'm always having to stress to my [American] students that, "just because this is a 'fancy' word with its origins in Sanskrit/Pali, don't think you can get away without learning it, because virtually everyone, regardless of educational level, knows and uses it." 

[wildewillie89]

2 hours ago, Chou Anou said:

Well, I certainly wasn't saying that in general, Thai education isn't crap, because I know it is...and I don't know what exactly comprises those exams you refer to...but I would think poor education would manifest itself more in poor analytical skills more than in lack of vocabulary.  At any rate, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find an adult Thai who didn't know the term ชามเมือง, for instance.

 

It is interesting to me the level of general "complex" vocabulary--again, in my experience--that one finds not just among low-educated Thais, but also among similar groups in neighboring countries, especially when one compares that knowledge to what I perceive to be a much lower level of complex vocabulary among Westerners without a great deal of education.  I teach a Southeast Asian language (not Thai), and I'm always having to stress to my [American] students that, "just because this is a 'fancy' word with its origins in Sanskrit/Pali, don't think you can get away without learning it, because virtually everyone, regardless of educational level, knows and uses it." 

There are definitions and there are definitions. Yes, most of society would know a basic common definition. Your every day language if you like. The OP could have just googled that, or asked around if he wanted that. I cannot even speak Thai and knew the word meaning just from living in the place. However, it is only the most educated that would generally be able to comprehend the more difficult definitions (generally those that are written in government legislation). It is why we have lawyers in all countries, as your average day to day person generally cannot comprehend these definitions (especially in Thai as the education system is well below par). 

For example, the last referendum vote, one criticism of it was the way the questions were written. One Election Commission member said that 'even some of those those who completed grade 9 can't read it'. 

So in reference to legal definitions of terms, my opinion stays, they are probably written in a level of Thai that few would understand. 

From working in the schooling system, having family who are all government officials, so speak a high level of Thai, and my wife being awarded the second highest score in all of Thailand for Thai language in M6, and is now used by the government for educational broadcasting and to represent Thai in ASEAN meetings in Malaysia. I would say i am at least a little bit informed, rather than 'highly misinformed'. There are aspects of Thai language that many of us don't even know exist. It is why even bachelor educated people, even people with PhD's (but in science) from top universities still cannot work as a government official. Again, it comes back down to hierarchy/elitism. The richer/powerful/better educated generally will always be at the top. Which is incredibly sad. 

[tgeezer]

But you know ... it was worth a shot. The info I found is in Thai, and pretty easy to understand. It is a document using pretty simple terms, not like legal jargon :) 

What I find interesting is that help is saught, help is given, a discussion is started, only to be closed by this! The poster has 'buggered off" happy, but leaving the rest of us whose interest he excited to find out for ourselves.


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[DavidHouston]

A sample sentence using these terms from Prachathai:

"โครงการรถไฟฟ้าความเร็วสูงซึ่งมีข้อดีในการผลักดันเศรษฐกิจทางอ้อมอย่างมหาศาลดังที่กล่าวมาแล้วนั้นควรเป็นโอกาสของการกระจายอำนาจทางเศรษฐกิจที่เปิดโอกาสแก่หัวเมืองและชานเมืองให้สามารถโตขึ้นเองได้โดยไม่จำเป็นต้องผูกตัวเข้ากับกรุงเทพฯตลอดเวลา "

Here's an example  from Matichon Weekend:

"การขยายเส้นทางรถไฟฟ้าให้ครอบคลุมพื้นที่สำคัญต่างๆ ในกรุงเทพฯ และปริมณฑล เพื่อเชื่อมโยงแหล่งที่อยู่อาศัยในชานเมืองกับแหล่งงานในตัวเมือง กำลังเป็นที่สนใจอย่างยิ่งของคนกรุงอยู่ในขณะนี้ "

[troysantos]

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

What I find interesting is that help is saught, help is given, a discussion is started, only to be closed by this! The poster has 'buggered off" happy, but leaving the rest of us whose interest he excited to find out for ourselves.

:)

I asked for definitions, not translations. Nevertheless, I apologize for not thanking you wildewillie89 :) I actually read every comment, but honestly, the content of the discussion that followed wasn't one that I wanted to get involved in. 

 

For whatever it's worth, the definition I found of city is that it is a place with 10,000 or more inhabitants! Now, this document, from the Dep't of Public Works and Town & Country Planning (DPT, for short) was written in Thai, using pretty simple language. I'll upload it here, in case anyone's interested. I also wanted a definition of suburb, or at least rural area, but didn't find one, either on DPT's site or anywhere else. In case you want to just read the part that says 10,000 or more people, it's right at the top ... can't miss it :)

 

I'm a uni student, finishing up a master's degree, and need to have these terms defined for my thesis. Since I didn't find what I want, I just made do with what I got. A concise definition isn't all that important for my research, but important enough that I had to do some searching. 

:)

At least 10,000.html

[wildewillie89]

50 minutes ago, troysantos said:

:)

I asked for definitions, not translations. Nevertheless, I apologize for not thanking you wildewillie89 :) I actually read every comment, but honestly, the content of the discussion that followed wasn't one that I wanted to get involved in. 

 

For whatever it's worth, the definition I found of city is that it is a place with 10,000 or more inhabitants! Now, this document, from the Dep't of Public Works and Town & Country Planning (DPT, for short) was written in Thai, using pretty simple language. I'll upload it here, in case anyone's interested. I also wanted a definition of suburb, or at least rural area, but didn't find one, either on DPT's site or anywhere else. In case you want to just read the part that says 10,000 or more people, it's right at the top ... can't miss it :)

 

I'm a uni student, finishing up a master's degree, and need to have these terms defined for my thesis. Since I didn't find what I want, I just made do with what I got. A concise definition isn't all that important for my research, but important enough that I had to do some searching. 

:)

At least 10,000.html

I don't speak Thai as I have said, so I could be speaking out of my arse (as I havent't confirmed this with anyone lol), but surely with that definition you will need to stipulate it is purely a definition by population. As each province only has the one 'city', but there will be many districts that have populations over 10,000 but aren't actually classified as 'cities' within the province. 

[troysantos]

:)

Definitions of megalopolis, metropolis, city, municipality, town, village whether in my country (the US) or Thailand are confusing. And considering that I am not always clear what a municipality is ... it all gets more complicated than I care to get clarity on. I'm sure the Thai gov't has very clearly defined what constitutes city, suburb, etc, but because I'm not so interested and have a million other things on my mind .... 

 

Interesting that you say that each province has only 1 city. Songkhla Province, for example, has at least 2 cities, I think - Hat Yai and Songkhla. Just my study area (which I can't imagine is considered a city), has about 11,000 people, but is called a community, within a municipal area. By the above definition from DPT, it is a city, and by that definition, there are tons more in the province. 

:)

[wildewillie89]

52 minutes ago, troysantos said:

:)

Definitions of megalopolis, metropolis, city, municipality, town, village whether in my country (the US) or Thailand are confusing. And considering that I am not always clear what a municipality is ... it all gets more complicated than I care to get clarity on. I'm sure the Thai gov't has very clearly defined what constitutes city, suburb, etc, but because I'm not so interested and have a million other things on my mind .... 

 

Interesting that you say that each province has only 1 city. Songkhla Province, for example, has at least 2 cities, I think - Hat Yai and Songkhla. Just my study area (which I can't imagine is considered a city), has about 11,000 people, but is called a community, within a municipal area. By the above definition from DPT, it is a city, and by that definition, there are tons more in the province. 

:)

Is Hat Yai really a city? Isn't it just a district within the province also. I was under the impression it just had a more famous name than the actual Songkhla city (Meuang), as it is a bit of a tourist spot, but is not a 'city/meuang' itself...could be wrong. I guess that is why the definitions are important lol. 

[troysantos]

2 hours ago, wildewillie89 said:

Is Hat Yai really a city? Isn't it just a district within the province also. I was under the impression it just had a more famous name than the actual Songkhla city (Meuang), as it is a bit of a tourist spot, but is not a 'city/meuang' itself...could be wrong. I guess that is why the definitions are important lol. 

:)

Is Hat Yai really a city? Well, by the 10,000 people and more population definition, absolutely. I don't know the population of the downtown part, but it's a high population, high density area. I really don't get it. The other thing that sometimes gets incorporated into the definition of ... I should use the term urban area ... is extensive and complex infrastructure. Hat Yai definitely has that ... along with the daily traffic jams starting about 3pm! 

 

The statistics I have for Hat Yai district, for 2015 are: HY district: 45,971 people HY municipality: 159,687 people Kho Hong municipality (where I did my research): 45,283. Now, these terms (district and municipality) are in Thai, and I never got a handle on these terms' legal definitions. What constitutes a district, a municipality, and a mueang? I still don't get it. I've asked a few Thai officials, a long time ago, but so far as I remember, the explanations weren't clear to me. And, again, it's not all that important for my research. 

 

Ah, one more thing ... density is also often a component of the definition of urban area. The density of my study site is about 4200 people per sq. km! Even more than Bangkok, which is about 3500 or so! I was shocked to learn this, and had a hard time believing it, but I got reliable stats on population and area of the community that was my study site, and of the density of Bangkok, so ... I've suspended belief. 

:)

[wildewillie89]

22 minutes ago, troysantos said:

:)

Is Hat Yai really a city? Well, by the 10,000 people and more population definition, absolutely. I don't know the population of the downtown part, but it's a high population, high density area. I really don't get it. The other thing that sometimes gets incorporated into the definition of ... I should use the term urban area ... is extensive and complex infrastructure. Hat Yai definitely has that ... along with the daily traffic jams starting about 3pm! 

 

The statistics I have for Hat Yai district, for 2015 are: HY district: 45,971 people HY municipality: 159,687 people Kho Hong municipality (where I did my research): 45,283. Now, these terms (district and municipality) are in Thai, and I never got a handle on these terms' legal definitions. What constitutes a district, a municipality, and a mueang? I still don't get it. I've asked a few Thai officials, a long time ago, but so far as I remember, the explanations weren't clear to me. And, again, it's not all that important for my research. 

 

Ah, one more thing ... density is also often a component of the definition of urban area. The density of my study site is about 4200 people per sq. km! Even more than Bangkok, which is about 3500 or so! I was shocked to learn this, and had a hard time believing it, but I got reliable stats on population and area of the community that was my study site, and of the density of Bangkok, so ... I've suspended belief. 

:)

I mean in relation to the one city per province, as there is only one เมือง in the province. So in Songkla is would be Tessaban Meuang Songkla (เทศบาลเมือง). Where as in Hat Yai, as you say, it is Tessaban Kho Hong, along with many other Tessabans. 

That is why I said you probably need to stipulate the context of your definition in your paper (to avoid confusion depending on what the topic of study is). State whether it is a population based definition or not. It is kind of how you ask someone which district they live in. Even though their district may be a population greater than 10,000 (a city by your definition), they will say something like it is 40kms from the city (Meuang). Also depends on how well known a place is. 

 

Anyway, a different sort of topic for the forum haha
 

[Chou Anou]

4 hours ago, troysantos said:

:)

Is Hat Yai really a city? Well, by the 10,000 people and more population definition, absolutely. I don't know the population of the downtown part, but it's a high population, high density area. I really don't get it. The other thing that sometimes gets incorporated into the definition of ... I should use the term urban area ... is extensive and complex infrastructure. Hat Yai definitely has that ... along with the daily traffic jams starting about 3pm! 

 

The statistics I have for Hat Yai district, for 2015 are: HY district: 45,971 people HY municipality: 159,687 people Kho Hong municipality (where I did my research): 45,283. Now, these terms (district and municipality) are in Thai, and I never got a handle on these terms' legal definitions. What constitutes a district, a municipality, and a mueang? I still don't get it. I've asked a few Thai officials, a long time ago, but so far as I remember, the explanations weren't clear to me. And, again, it's not all that important for my research. 

 

Ah, one more thing ... density is also often a component of the definition of urban area. The density of my study site is about 4200 people per sq. km! Even more than Bangkok, which is about 3500 or so! I was shocked to learn this, and had a hard time believing it, but I got reliable stats on population and area of the community that was my study site, and of the density of Bangkok, so ... I've suspended belief. 

:)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Thailand

[wildewillie89]

Looks like the search for definitions has to start all over again OP hahah. 

[troysantos]

:)

That Wikipedia page was interesting and helps me understand the differences. Thanks Chou Anou :) After reading that, I remembered seeing somewhere that a meuang nakhon is defined as having 50,000 or more people. I guess meuang nakhon, and not simply meuang, should be translated as city. In everyday language, meuang surely is often the way to say city, but I guess not in more formal language. And now this is making sense! That 10,000 figure is for a meuang, while the 50,000 is for ... a city (meuang nakhon) :) Got it :) Thanks everyone ... now I've got a definition of city :) 

:)

[wildewillie89]

1 hour ago, troysantos said:

:)

That Wikipedia page was interesting and helps me understand the differences. Thanks Chou Anou :) After reading that, I remembered seeing somewhere that a meuang nakhon is defined as having 50,000 or more people. I guess meuang nakhon, and not simply meuang, should be translated as city. In everyday language, meuang surely is often the way to say city, but I guess not in more formal language. And now this is making sense! That 10,000 figure is for a meuang, while the 50,000 is for ... a city (meuang nakhon) :) Got it :) Thanks everyone ... now I've got a definition of city :) 

:)

Now you just need to find a credible source, as surely Wiki will not be accepted in a thesis. At least you are on the right path now thanks to Chou Anou. Good luck :)

[troysantos]

[tgeezer]

I don't pretend to know how people who write theses think but this is a strange topic.
It begins with asking about the meaning of English adjectives, urban, suburban, compares them to Thai เมือง ชานเมือง (noun, noun-adj.) then equates เมือง to city and tries to define city!
Which language are you discussing?


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[troysantos]

:)

Okay. So I arguably worded my posts in a sort of screwy fashion :) I needed to define "urban area" and "peri-urban area" for my thesis. Turned in the draft thesis yesterday and will know within a few days if my advisor will accept the definitions or not. Adjective to noun ... doesn't matter much as long as I got my definitions. That post from Anou with the Wikipedia link helped, believe it or not. No need to cite Wikipedia as my advisor told me to make a definition that applies to my study area. Still, I thought there must be a Thai gov't definition somewhere. Didn't find one and unless I'm told to find one, I'm done with this trifling affair!

:)