Radical change is needed to unlock Thailand's potential

[Eric Loh]

53 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Yeah right. And how was any of that "tricking" down to the poor Eric?

 

Had the coup not happened, the rice scheme would still have been running. still without any audited accounts, still with contradictory figures being issued by various ministries, still riddled with fraud and mismanagement and probably still having meetings without the Chair bothering to attend. And the same bunch would've got their hands on a 2.2 trillion baht loan, which they intended to keep off the books, away from parliamentary scrutiny and spent without accountability.

 

You really think that was the radical change to unlock Thailand's potential?

 

Maybe the rice scheme may end up good in general or maybe not and her party may not be re-elected. Not same with your beloved junta who is doing the same populist policies and getting away with rampant corruptions and no one can uproot them or even slap them with a corruption charge or get the constitution court to charge them with nepotism. 

[Nowisee]

5 hours ago, colinneil said:

Thailand has vast potential, but it will remain the same as always.

The elite is this country are so corrupt, and it works its way down.

Now even lowly government pen pushers demand bribes, until that is stopped ( WHICH IT NEVER WILL)

Thailands vast potential will remain untapped/ unused.

Vast?  

 

3 hours ago, maxpower said:

Jokes aside, I wouldn't want to work and live anywhere else at this moment in time. Place is a constant buzz for me.

I've cancelled my Netflix subscription.  Watching this is time consuming and much more entertaining.

[Cadbury]

9 hours ago, webfact said:

Prime Minister Gen Prayut Chan-o-cha was furious about the inactivity of authorities over the plight of a villager whose house was hit by a fallen tree.

Mr Grumpy stamping his feet again. I think the man needs anger management therapy.

No one in their right mind would go and cut up a dead tree in Thailand. Not long back two old men were jailed for this serious criminal offence. Police are out there just waiting for someone to try so they can extort some money from them.

Would it occur to Prayut to use his Article 44 to change the stupid "cutting up dead tree laws".

 

[HocusPocus67]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Yeah right. And how was any of that "tricking" down to the poor Eric?

 

Had the coup not happened, the rice scheme would still have been running. still without any audited accounts, still with contradictory figures being issued by various ministries, still riddled with fraud and mismanagement and probably still having meetings without the Chair bothering to attend. And the same bunch would've got their hands on a 2.2 trillion baht loan, which they intended to keep off the books, away from parliamentary scrutiny and spent without accountability.

 

You really think that was the radical change to unlock Thailand's potential?

 

 

Same old refrain. Same old nonsense.

[Momofarang]

5 hours ago, Ceruhe said:

I'd already see a massive improvement if people could lift their feet while walking, if they could learn and execute that, I'll up their rating in my book already.

 

Yes, the bar is quite low.

Yes, where is the "potential" ?

[WhizBang]

21 hours ago, sharecropper said:

Let's face it, only invasion or revolution could change the sorry mess the country finds itself in.

 

Yes, and invasion is unlikely, so that only leaves one other solution.   I keep asking myself how much longer are Thais willing to put up with the daily crap we get from this junta.  It is up to the Thai people to wake up, smell the coffee (or is it the house burning) and actually do something.  Until then there will be no moving forward, just the daily slide backwards.  I strongly suspect that the end goal is to go back to a pre-1930 Thailand.

[YetAnother]

I agree with all the points and the concluding statements

unfortunately ,we're back in the same impasse that the people that actually know what to do are not in a position to do it

And the people in positions of authority have no will or incentive to act

[metisdead]

A post in violation of fair use policy has been removed. 

[Smarter Than You]

49 minutes ago, WhizBang said:

 

Yes, and invasion is unlikely, so that only leaves one other solution.   I keep asking myself how much longer are Thais willing to put up with the daily crap we get from this junta.  It is up to the Thai people to wake up, smell the coffee (or is it the house burning) and actually do something.  Until then there will be no moving forward, just the daily slide backwards.  I strongly suspect that the end goal is to go back to a pre-1930 Thailand.

 

Thaksin tells Thailand's red shirt opposition - 'play dead ...

 

At some stage, probably at Thaksin's choosing, I suspect things will come to a rapid conclusion

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Smarter Than You

[Baerboxer]

7 hours ago, soalbundy said:

That's what happens when nobody wanted to colonize you, it was a mess then and it hasn't changed

 

Hmmm. Zimbabwe was colonized. So were most of the other sub Saharan states that have been run into the ground by corrupt politicians and ethnic violence since independence. Vietnam, Cambodia were colonized - didn't work out too well for them either since independence. 

 

Colinization works well for those in charge, who squeeze out what they want then leave the mess.

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, HocusPocus67 said:

 

Same old refrain. Same old nonsense.

 

Boring.

 

Always get one boring old let's claim everything is nonsense post. Care to demonstrate your understanding and expand on your reasoning?

[Baerboxer]

2 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

Maybe the rice scheme may end up good in general or maybe not and her party may not be re-elected. Not same with your beloved junta who is doing the same populist policies and getting away with rampant corruptions and no one can uproot them or even slap them with a corruption charge or get the constitution court to charge them with nepotism. 

 

Eric - you know very well that I don't love the junta. If you think repeating that somehow enhances your comments then your misguided - again.

 

You think the Shins weren't rampantly corrupt? Any more than others?

 

As for the rice scheme - you actually want to postulate that is could end up good - i.e. really be self financing or even make a profit? Have you seen the accounts then? Because no one else seems to have.

 

Her party - you mean the one her brother owns?

[Baerboxer]

Radical - as in a free society, a democracy, a meritocracy where all are given a chance to be their best? A classless society where money, family, connections, are not the currency of privilege?

 

A society with robust educational systems based on the latest educational thinking; a robust justice system that is fair, impartial and consistent in enforcement to all; and a political system that is democratic, observes the constitution and abides by the laws and procedures with robust checks and balances and full transparency and accountability?

 

Oh, maybe not quite that Radical!!

[Nowisee]

1 hour ago, WhizBang said:

 

Yes, and invasion is unlikely, so that only leaves one other solution.   I keep asking myself how much longer are Thais willing to put up with the daily crap we get from this junta.  It is up to the Thai people to wake up, smell the coffee (or is it the house burning) and actually do something.  Until then there will be no moving forward, just the daily slide backwards.  I strongly suspect that the end goal is to go back to a pre-1930 Thailand.

IMO they are too passive and unwilling to do much about it.  They are scared from the fear based leadership.... and they should be.  

They are awake, they're just watching the Lakorn and waiting for next weeks episode.   The longer it goes on, the weaker they are, the less effective they are.  
Think of countries that have stood up to their govt in the last 25 years.  It usually comes from or starts at the universities where students want a future and want reform.  

I admit not knowing much about the uni level education here, but are they capable of such a movement?  ...and here there's the historic memory of Thammasat.  

I'm reminded of the people gathered in S.Korea recently, they were serious, they wanted reform/change, they wanted Park gone.  Just imagine if that many thais came out onto the streets.  

 

16 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Radical - as in a free society, a democracy, a meritocracy where all are given a chance to be their best? A classless society where money, family, connections, are not the currency of privilege?

 

A society with robust educational systems based on the latest educational thinking; a robust justice system that is fair, impartial and consistent in enforcement to all; and a political system that is democratic, observes the constitution and abides by the laws and procedures with robust checks and balances and full transparency and accountability?

 

Oh, maybe not quite that Radical!!

Wow... tell me you're not describing thailand?  555  They could only hope.

 

I'm burned out on the Lakorn... it's become a show that needs to be canceled.   I'm channel surfing now, looking for a better show, hell, a better TV... pun intended.

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Nowisee

[Eric Loh]

9 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Radical - as in a free society, a democracy, a meritocracy where all are given a chance to be their best? A classless society where money, family, connections, are not the currency of privilege?

 

A society with robust educational systems based on the latest educational thinking; a robust justice system that is fair, impartial and consistent in enforcement to all; and a political system that is democratic, observes the constitution and abides by the laws and procedures with robust checks and balances and full transparency and accountability?

 

Oh, maybe not quite that Radical!!

 

Where did you copy that gallant description of a system that allows democracy to flourish and with continuity and not truncated by military seizure of governments, ripped the constitutions and re-wrote one that favour appointments (rather than  meritocracy) and forced the constitution down the citizens' throats. Radical change will start when the military denounce future coups and generals who have been corrupted with power and money brought to justice just like politicians from Thaksin's side. 

[Smarter Than You]

7 minutes ago, Nowisee said:

IMO they are too passive and unwilling to do much about it.  They are scared from the fear based leadership. 

They are awake, they're just watching the Lakorn and waiting for next weeks episode.   The longer it goes on, the weaker they are, the less effective they are.  
Think of countries that have stood up to their govt in the last 25 years.  It usually comes from or starts at the universities where students want a future and want reform.  I admit not knowing much about the uni level education here, but are they capable of such a movement?  ...and here there's the historic memory of Thammasat.  

 

Wow... tell me you're not describing thailand?  555  They could only hope.

 

I'm burned out on the Lakorn... it's become a show that needs to be canceled.   I'm channel surfing now, looking for a better show, hell, a better TV... pun intended.

 

You might want to google the events of 2010 and see what the 90 people shot dead by the military were doing.

[chainarong]

Thailand will be a basket case for decades to come and will never quite become a vital part of the international community , ingrained outdated old fashioned ideas clashing with the 21st century  and it starts with the military and what their actuall responsability  is and big bannana's in the big house or whereever..................................

[HocusPocus67]

34 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Boring.

 

Always get one boring old let's claim everything is nonsense post. Care to demonstrate your understanding and expand on your reasoning?

 

Nope. But thanks anyway.

[Nowisee]

5 minutes ago, Smarter Than You said:

You might want to google the events of 2010 and see what the 90 people shot dead by the military were doing.

My reference was about a demonstration at a university.  Most won't know what it was about, only what happened.

 

[Crossy]

6 hours ago, Lupatria said:

 

and (oddly enough) banned in Thailand.

[ianf]

As an expat who has been here for 9 years, I see the major problems as:

1.The education system: Indeed the whole hierarchical system reinforced and learned both in the family and at school. In school the teacher is always right and you cannot question the teacher; there is no free thought, there is no creativity. It's learning in a straight jacket, learning by rote, not thinking for yourself. This applies to the family where the father, as the ehad of the house, is always right. He may be a totally dumb fool, but he cannot be questioned.  Off course this spills over into:

2. The workplace: You have learned not to question, you have learned to obey those 'above' you and do exactly as you have been told. With a lack of creativity and questioning you are not going to be an innovator. We've all see this so many times when dealing with people in restaurants or shops or Government services. Try asking for something which deviates from the one line that the employee has been taught and you'll confuse them. Not a clue. No idea how to find creative solutions. But remember you cannot question those above you which means that ......

3. Corruption is easy: I asked one high-ranking Thai if corruption has improved since the Generals took over. "Yes" he said, "It has become more expensive". Here we go at every level of society and we could all come up with countless anecdotes to reinforce our view. Try this: Outside our Moo Baan we have a nice dual carriageway with a perfect road surface. It's a connecting road about 1.5km long. I know how good the surface is because I cycle on it every day. Last week they began to dig it up ready to lay a new surface. Local traders were aghast and one even closed his restaurant and went off on holiday due to the mess created. But upon asking around about why this road has been redone when it clearly didn't need to be the answer from Thais and farangs alike was "Corruption". There was money left in the kitty, the job could be justified because people 'of higher standing' use it from time to time and if the budget wasn't spent the top three guys in the Tambon administration would lose out on a hefty payback. Or how about the shops selling wooden objects who are only allowed to operate because of the weekly payments that are made to certain officials? This is without mentioning customs import agents and officers, police and and people in Government departments.

 

Those who can effect real and positive change have too much to lose if they open their mouths. And besides their training from day one in the family, through school and now in the workplace, has conditioned them to accept the status quo. Bearing that in mind, I can't see change coming - not in my lifetime nor, I suspect in the lifetime of the poor kids in the local Kindergarten.

[ianf]

45 minutes ago, Smarter Than You said:

You might want to google the events of 2010 and see what the 90 people shot dead by the military were doing.

I think impartial reasoning would point the finger at a certain political movement, egged on by an exiled politician may well have caused the majority of these deaths.

[Smarter Than You]

1 minute ago, ianf said:

I think impartial reasoning would point the finger at a certain political movement, egged on by an exiled politician may well have caused the majority of these deaths.

If you think that then you are wrong.

[Smarter Than You]

5 minutes ago, ianf said:

As an expat who has been here for 9 years, I see the major problems as:

1.The education system: Indeed the whole hierarchical system reinforced and learned both in the family and at school. In school the teacher is always right and you cannot question the teacher; there is no free thought, there is no creativity. It's learning in a straight jacket, learning by rote, not thinking for yourself. This applies to the family where the father, as the ehad of the house, is always right. He may be a totally dumb fool, but he cannot be questioned.  Off course this spills over into:

Democracy is the answer.

 

5 minutes ago, ianf said:

2. The workplace: You have learned not to question, you have learned to obey those 'above' you and do exactly as you have been told. With a lack of creativity and questioning you are not going to be an innovator. We've all see this so many times when dealing with people in restaurants or shops or Government services. Try asking for something which deviates from the one line that the employee has been taught and you'll confuse them. Not a clue. No idea how to find creative solutions. But remember you cannot question those above you which means that ......

Democracy is the answer.

 

5 minutes ago, ianf said:

3. Corruption is easy: I asked one high-ranking Thai if corruption has improved since the Generals took over. "Yes" he said, "It has become more expensive". Here we go at every level of society and we could all come up with countless anecdotes to reinforce our view. Try this: Outside our Moo Baan we have a nice dual carriageway with a perfect road surface. It's a connecting road about 1.5km long. I know how good the surface is because I cycle on it every day. Last week they began to dig it up ready to lay a new surface. Local traders were aghast and one even closed his restaurant and went off on holiday due to the mess created. But upon asking around about why this road has been redone when it clearly didn't need to be the answer from Thais and farangs alike was "Corruption". There was money left in the kitty, the job could be justified because people 'of higher standing' use it from time to time and if the budget wasn't spent the top three guys in the Tambon administration would lose out on a hefty payback. Or how about the shops selling wooden objects who are only allowed to operate because of the weekly payments that are made to certain officials? This is without mentioning customs import agents and officers, police and and people in Government departments.

Democracy is the answer

 

5 minutes ago, ianf said:

 

Those who can effect real and positive change have too much to lose if they open their mouths. And besides their training from day one in the family, through school and now in the workplace, has conditioned them to accept the status quo. Bearing that in mind, I can't see change coming - not in my lifetime nor, I suspect in the lifetime of the poor kids in the local Kindergarten.

Democracy is the answer.

[ianf]

No I'm not wrong. If you look at the history and how the sociopathic spin tried to rewrite that history then you get closer to what happened. Indeed I saw weapons being handed to people going to the city to 'demonstrate' in a village near Chiang Mai. Why would they do that for a peaceful demo? There was a very clever spin created by the exiled one and his farang backers as part of the overall strategy. I'm not stupid and I didn't fall for it. There are plenty of pieces of evidence to prove that '90' people were absolutely not killed by the military. I've posted about this before and I'm not going into details here but I am gobsmacked that people still believe the red spin on these events. It either points to an entrenched ideological position or to a lack of analytical thinking.

[ianf]

There has never been democracy in Thailand. Democracy is underpinned by the rule of law. Never seen that here. Thaksin was an anti-democrat. A dictator in waiting, who never used the word 'democrat' until it was suggested to him by R Amsterdam. Democracy per se is not the sole answer - again you demonstrate a lack of critical thinking. A social revolution is needed and then democracy, real democracy, will grow from that. Off course, you are a red. But that only shows that ideological entrenchment of whatever colour does not allow real change to take place. Well demonstrated by your posts. My original points apply to both Thaksin's dictatorship and the military rule we have now = equally.

[Smarter Than You]

4 minutes ago, ianf said:

There has never been democracy in Thailand. Democracy is underpinned by the rule of law. Never seen that here. Thaksin was an anti-democrat. A dictator in waiting, who never used the word 'democrat' until it was suggested to him by R Amsterdam. Democracy per se is not the sole answer - again you demonstrate a lack of critical thinking. A social revolution is needed and then democracy, real democracy, will grow from that. Off course, you are a red. But that only shows that ideological entrenchment of whatever colour does not allow real change to take place. Well demonstrated by your posts. My original points apply to both Thaksin's dictatorship and the military rule we have now = equally.

"There has never been democracy in Thailand"

 

And look at the state it is in.

 

C'mon, say it with me ...democracy is the answer.

 

Thaksin was voted in which means he could be voted out.

 

Is a social revolution more likely to occur under a repressive and unaccountable censorship happy section 44 wielding Junta or an elected government?

Do a little critical thinking and answer that one bro.

 

 

[InMyShadow]

Democracy is the answer.

Wrong. Your injecting your view of western democracy onto Thailand.

That type of democracy is 50 years away.

Thais can't even get the basics right. Accept a democratic election even if your side didn't win.

On no we lost, let's make bangkok burn!!!

[ianf]

2 minutes ago, Smarter Than You said:

"There has never been democracy in Thailand"

 

And look at the state it is in.

 

C'mon, say it with me ...democracy is the answer.

 

Thaksin was voted in which means he could be voted out.

 

Is a social revolution more likely to occur under a repressive and unaccountable censorship happy section 44 wielding Junta or an elected government?

Do a little critical thinking and answer that one bro.

 

 

You really don't get it. Just voting for someone doesn't mean you have democracy. People vote for Mugabe, Hun Sen and so on. Are these democratic leaders? Absolutely not. Did Thaksin head a democracy? Did Yingluck head a democracy. 100% Not in either case. Is this regime any more or any less unaccountable or repressive than Thaksin's? Same same if you ask me. But Thaksin leads in the repressive stakes with his extra-judicial killings of 3000 so-called drug dealers. And as I have already said democracy per se is not the sole answer. Most people here don't understand what democracy is anyway.....

[Smarter Than You]

1 minute ago, InMyShadow said:

Wrong. Your injecting your view of western democracy onto Thailand.

That type of democracy is 50 years away.

Thais can't even get the basics right. Accept a democratic election even if your side didn't win.

On no we lost, let's make bangkok burn!!!

All Thais can't get it right or a dwindling well connected, well armed and well financed minority can't get it right.

Demographics combined with the emergence of social media and a taste of what democracy can achieve (universal health care anyone?) means this all ends only one way ... a democratic Thailand.

It will take time and the road will be bumpy but they will get there a lot sooner than your pessimism has allowed you to think.