Thai School In Chiang Mai

[alohatiger]

I had been thinking of going to Union in Bangkok in the mornings, then AUA in the afternoons, but maybe I don't want to be in Bangkok right now. Hmm, I can go to school in the magical city of Chiang Mai!

So, where do I go? I know they have an AUA here, but I'm also looking for some more concrete learning programs. The Union program in Bangkok looked good: 4 hours a day, 8am-12pm, 5 days a week. Yes, it require commitment, but I'll at least get a head start things.

I DO like Union style program. I've also heard the YMCA Chiang Mai has a good Thai program. How about the universities here? Can you advise on their reputations? I heard Payap is mostly for Rich Thais (good for us, since it's only about 100,000 baht PER YEAR) and they probably speak a great deal of english. Do they have courses in english?

On the list of my studies: outdoor nature studies. Eventually, I might attach myself to a foundation or non-profit organization and live and work out here.

Of course I have to study Thai first. At this point, I really do not mind a little commitment to learning Thai.

[mongoose]

Payap has good Thai Language classes for foreigners. Could be the best but depends on what you want.

Payap is not just for rich Thais anymore. A few years back (and probably continuing today) they had some programs that were considered to be better than CMU's offerings.

Edited January 1, 2007 by mongoose

[BlackArtemis]

I would start off on the union program. When I first arrived in Thailand for my semester abroad we had 4hrs a day 5 days a week for 2 weeks and then 2hrs a day for the next 3 months. The onslaught of four hours really helped make a great starting point.

[Rasseru]

Payap has good Thai Language classes for foreigners. Could be the best but depends on what you want.

Two months ago I signed up for their Thai language class for foreigners, beginners' level. For a true beginner like myself, at least, it was not at all good. The other six people in the class, all native English-speaking farangs (like myself), had substantial exposure to Thai before taking the course, and the teacher moved the class at a speed that worked for them, and not for true beginners. There was no textbook and no tapes or language lab of any kind. No effort was made to teach any writing system for representing the Thai words we were learning. I quit in frustration after going to three classes.

Two days later I audited a beginners' course at the YMCA, which I liked and then joined. What did I like? Well, they have a textbook and an effort is made at the outset to teach a method of representing the sounds of the Thai language. When one leaves the class, one has some method of trying to memorize words based on their sounds, something that was effectively impossible in the Payap course. As a real beginner, I was able both to follow and keep up. There were more students, which is of course not an unmixed blessing, but I very much liked the fact that the students in the class came in a greater variety of flavors, including Japanese, Koreans, Germans, Finns and Philippinos. The class finished just over a week ago, and next week I am starting their second level course.

Oh yes, and the YMCA courses are not only better, but cost only about 1/3 of what the Payap courses do.

[PeaceBlondie]

Perhaps bungalowbill will be along soon to tell us about his attendance at the YMCA. I'm thinking of enrolling, but want to go to Angkor Wat first. About 1,600 baht for 16 hours of instruction, Monday and Wednesday, for four weeks. Sounds good.

There must be an existing thread in the Chiang Mai Forum. CityLife magazine had a feature on this topic about 2.5 years ago.

[Rasseru]

There must be an existing thread in the Chiang Mai Forum.

There is, but it mentions only AUA and Payap and ignores the YMCA school, or at least did when I checked it several months ago when researching where to go, which had a lot to do with why, in the first instance, I picked Payap. I had intended for some time to post something there about the experiences I described above, but having done so here, will probably leave it at that.

Should perhaps mention too that the YMCA beginner one and two courses, at least, run for two hours on each of Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

Edited January 1, 2007 by Rasseru

[meadish_sweetball]

Thanks for sharing Rasseru, I wasn't aware the YMCA course existed.

Do they teach Thai writing at all, or do they use a transliteration system? If so, could you give some examples of what the system is like?

[Rasseru]

Thanks for sharing Rasseru, I wasn't aware the YMCA course existed.

Pleased to share. I was surprised, actually, at how big a program it is. The Payap beginners' course I first signed up for had seven students. The YMCA program expanded its beginners' course to two classes in the just finished session, due to the number of students. Each of the two classes was, at 15 students each, fully booked, and I had to wait for a cancellation in order to get in. That level of attendance is apparently not unusual. After a week or so, the number of students in our class who actually attended fell to about 11 or 12. Probably also not unusual, but I don't know that.

Do they teach Thai writing at all, or do they use a transliteration system?

Both. In the beginners' classes (the level one course I took and the level two course that I will be taking starting next week), at least, a transliteration system is used. I don't know what happens in the higher level classes, since I have not had to look into that yet. At least two separate courses for reading and writing the Thai script are also offered. I will be taking the introductory course also starting next week, which is possible because the speaking courses (for lack of a better word) are offered in the morning and the reading/writing courses are offered in the afternoon.

If so, could you give some examples of what the system is like?

I don't know how to describe it easily, because I know no other systems of transliteration and so cannot compare. If it would be helpful to you, I could scan a page of the text book and email it to you.

[highonthai]

Where is the YMCA located in CM?

[mongoose]

In the past, Payap did not teach a transliteration system which made it a bit slower at the start and possibly not so good if you are only after basic conversation skills. If you really wanted to learn Thai including reading, the Payap system was better because it avoided the step of learning a transliteration system, and no transliteration system will put Thai sounds into English script because they just do not fit.

Depends on what you want, conversation only with a less than clear transliteration system or Thai with reading skills.

[meadish_sweetball]

Thanks for sharing Rasseru, I wasn't aware the YMCA course existed.

Pleased to share. I was surprised, actually, at how big a program it is. The Payap beginners' course I first signed up for had seven students. The YMCA program expanded its beginners' course to two classes in the just finished session, due to the number of students. Each of the two classes was, at 15 students each, fully booked, and I had to wait for a cancellation in order to get in. That level of attendance is apparently not unusual. After a week or so, the number of students in our class who actually attended fell to about 11 or 12. Probably also not unusual, but I don't know that.

Do they teach Thai writing at all, or do they use a transliteration system?

Both. In the beginners' classes (the level one course I took and the level two course that I will be taking starting next week), at least, a transliteration system is used. I don't know what happens in the higher level classes, since I have not had to look into that yet. At least two separate courses for reading and writing the Thai script are also offered. I will be taking the introductory course also starting next week, which is possible because the speaking courses (for lack of a better word) are offered in the morning and the reading/writing courses are offered in the afternoon.

If so, could you give some examples of what the system is like?

I don't know how to describe it easily, because I know no other systems of transliteration and so cannot compare. If it would be helpful to you, I could scan a page of the text book and email it to you.

Cheers for your reply. I was basically just curious if they used an IPA-based system or one based on the pronunciation of a particular language (assuming English). No need to do any scanning, that seems like far too much hard work for a New Year's Day.

Here are some examples of transcribing the word ที่ meaning 'place'; 'at', and also used as a reflexive pronoun (that/which/who) which takes the falling tone - does one of these look familiar to you?

1. thîi

2. thî:

3. têe

4. thêe

5. tèe

[meadish_sweetball]

In the past, Payap did not teach a transliteration system which made it a bit slower at the start and possibly not so good if you are only after basic conversation skills. If you really wanted to learn Thai including reading, the Payap system was better because it avoided the step of learning a transliteration system, and no transliteration system will put Thai sounds into English script because they just do not fit.

Depends on what you want, conversation only with a less than clear transliteration system or Thai with reading skills.

This discussion has been had many times before. The advantage of the good transliteration systems is that they actually do show the exact pronunciation of a Thai word, provided you learn to assign the right sounds to the letters.

Obviously this means you have to learn to look at Roman letters in a new way, and also typically learn some 10 symbols from IPA.

Some people feel this is too much hard work, which is fair enough - it will not help you communicate with Thais in general as only linguists will know it.

On the other hand, it has the advantage of being universally accepted among linguists, and once you have mastered an IPA-based transcription for one language, it will be helpful when you learn the next one. It is also a 100% accurate way of representing Thai sounds. This is helpful for example when you are learning words with irregular spelling and silent letters when written in Thai (English-based words and names, Sanskrit/Pali based words - and they form a large part of the advanced Thai vocabulary.).

The IPA-based transcription cuts out the silent letters and shows the actual pronunciation of each syllable. When you read Thai, you need to learn to analyse where one syllable begins and the next one ends, and then you need to internalise the rules for tone formation, which involve looking at many factors: vowel length, syllable ending sound (dead/live syllable), syllable initial consonant class and finally, if there are any tone markers. If you are dealing with a word you have never seen before, it is not an easy task to read it out correctly.

But with an IPA transcription, once learned, there is only one symbol for one tone. The ´ always means high tone. The ` always means low tone. The ^ always means falling tone, and the 'v' on top of a vowel always means rising tone. No tone marker - mid tone.

As an example, take a parallel street to Khao San Rd. in Bangkok, which using the Royal Institute system is transliterated as Thanon Chakrapongse.

The IPA-based system would give thanon+ jàkphong (using the + for rising tone, since a regular keyboard does not allow placing a rising tone symbol 'v' on top of vowels). So why does the sign say 'Thanon Chakrapongse'? Because the Royal Institute system is a weird compromise where they try to preserve sounds from original Sanskrit/Pali words - the problem is that these sounds change when pronounced in Thai - you would stand no chance in the world if you try to pronounce 'Chakrapongse' according to English to a taxi driver. Why? Because many of the letters in the Thai word are silent, but are written out in the Roman text on the sign (with extra vowels not heard in Thai, creating a word with 4 syllables, when the actual Thai pronunciation is just 2 syllables).

The transliteration Suvarnabhumi for the new airport is another case in point. But with an IPA-based system, you'd get 'sùwannáphuum' - note how neatly it shows both vowel length (two vowel signs - long vowel, one vowel sign - short vowel) and tones for each syllable.

That is the point - you may still think it's a waste of time, of course.

[Ulysses G.]

I am glad that I learned as much Thai as I have, however, I have lived here for something like 18 years and I know only two people who read, write and speak really good Thai - Joe Cummings and Raymond the German.

I'm not sure if it is worth all the effort that some of us put into it to end up sounding like a mentally retarded 3 year old.

Edited January 1, 2007 by Ulysses G.

[meadish_sweetball]

I hear you UG, but how many people *really* try to learn and give up half way, or half-arsed?

No time spent learning a language is wasted time, not in my book anyway.

Joe Cummings studied Thai formally and full time for a while, before immersion here in Thailand.

I don't know Raymond the German though.

[Ulysses G.]

I don't know Raymond the German though.

Many expats do.

He has the body of the Terminator with the head of Alfred E. Newman and speaks a bunch of languages fluently.

He has been here around 20 years and studies Thai every single day.

Thais think that he is another Thai on the telephone.

[BlackArtemis]

I have been here for 15 months, came over for a semester abroad and studied at CMU. Now I have a Thai Fiancee and only Thai friends. I am finally beginging to learn how to read and write (it was optional at CMU and I didn't need the credits) Anyways I am told my Thai is good for a farang, (I would still rate it at low, but I can hold 30-45min convos in Thai)

I have learned over and over that there are too many fun and interesting people living here to give up half way or not even try learning thai.

I know I may never have a second language fluency and I will always have a farang accent, but my goal is to really do my best and learn the language.

I don't know if it's because I am younger than many expats or if it's a personal thing though.

Just pick a course you enjoy and go out and meet new interesting people whom you want to chat with

[PeaceBlondie]

meadish, thanks for reminding me why I haven't gotten around to trying to attempt to maybe learn lots of Thai language yet. It sounds too darn difficult! Five tones - I think Chinese music only has that many! Oh, and about the IPA - I've had debates with English teachers about which version of the IPA (no kidding). Spanish was no problem for me to learn, because it's so similar in the grammar to English; it's phonetic using Roman alphabet; there are thousands of cognates; and I started learning it in my 20's.

And, the IPA is yet another alphabet; I found that the two scripts of Greek were difficult. I know you're a multi-linquist, but my brain cells may have calcified. Too much chocolate milk, maybe...

After almost four years in Thailand, today I was given a new year's day gift. I wai-ed and said to someone I'd already welcomed, "sawadee khrap."

[Rasseru]

In the past, Payap did not teach a transliteration system which made it a bit slower at the start and possibly not so good if you are only after basic conversation skills. If you really wanted to learn Thai including reading, the Payap system was better because it avoided the step of learning a transliteration system, and no transliteration system will put Thai sounds into English script because they just do not fit.

Depends on what you want, conversation only with a less than clear transliteration system or Thai with reading skills.

In fact, my understanding that Payap was supposed to do just that was an important reason for my deciding to go there. One of the first things we were told in the class, however, was that Payap had just decided to stop following that approach and that we would not "have" ("get" was my thought) to learn the Thai script in the course. By itself, that would have been acceptable, perhaps, but they did not substitute for it the use of any other method of writing, which was an issue for me.

[NukRukDee]

I had been thinking of going to Union in Bangkok in the mornings, then AUA in the afternoons, but maybe I don't want to be in Bangkok right now. Hmm, I can go to school in the magical city of Chiang Mai! ...

...

See this recent post on the subject.

BKK, CM, CR, or wherever you decide to settle, the same advice applies.

PM me if you questions.

[Rasseru]

Here are some examples of transcribing the word ??? meaning 'place'; 'at', and also used as a reflexive pronoun (that/which/who) which takes the falling tone - does one of these look familiar to you?

1. thîi

2. thî:

3. têe

4. thêe

5. tèe

I'd have to pick door number one, Bob.

Fortunately you picked one of the still very small number of vocabulary words we happen to have learned.

[Rasseru]

I am glad that I learned as much Thai as I have, however, I have lived here for something like 18 years and I know only two people who read, write and speak really good Thai - Joe Cummings and Raymond the German.

I'm not sure if it is worth all the effort that some of us put into it to end up sounding like a mentally retarded 3 year old.

Not quite clear about your point, Mr. G. Are you suggesting that Joe and Raymond sound like fluent mentally retarded three year olds?

[Ulysses G.]

You are indeed confused. They sound like fluent speakers of Thai.

The rest of us sound like mentally retarded three year olds.

[meadish_sweetball]

Here are some examples of transcribing the word ??? meaning 'place'; 'at', and also used as a reflexive pronoun (that/which/who) which takes the falling tone - does one of these look familiar to you?

1. thîi

2. thî:

3. têe

4. thêe

5. tèe

I'd have to pick door number one, Bob.

Fortunately you picked one of the still very small number of vocabulary words we happen to have learned.

It's one of the most common and useful words to know, so I am not surprised. When you have learned how to construct sentences with thîi you will also gain an understanding to why Thais often have problems remembering which reflexive pronoun to use in English.

[john b good]

I am glad that I learned as much Thai as I have, however, I have lived here for something like 18 years and I know only two people who read, write and speak really good Thai - Joe Cummings and Raymond the German.

I'm not sure if it is worth all the effort that some of us put into it to end up sounding like a mentally retarded 3 year old.

My lady heard Adam Cotton speaking (out of her sight and before she saw who it was) and she would have sworn that he was Thai.

Don't know how he goes on the read/write bit.

[Ulysses G.]

I don't think that I know Mr. Cotton.

[camerata]

My lady heard Adam Cotton speaking (out of her sight and before she saw who it was) and she would have sworn that he was Thai.

Don't know how he goes on the read/write bit.

He could read and write Thai fluently 20 years ago before he moved to Chiangmai. The incredible thing is he started learning Thai while hanging out at the 209 Thai Restaurant in Kensington, London - where I first met him.

[john b good]

My lady heard Adam Cotton speaking (out of her sight and before she saw who it was) and she would have sworn that he was Thai.

Don't know how he goes on the read/write bit.

He could read and write Thai fluently 20 years ago before he moved to Chiangmai. The incredible thing is he started learning Thai while hanging out at the 209 Thai Restaurant in Kensington, London - where I first met him.

So there you go UG.

I am not the only one who knows Adam.

He's always out and about around Chiangmai but you could say he keeps a fairly low profile. "not like us eh?"

[lamphun]

Haven't seen Adam for a long time. Someone told me he'd moved to Bangkok so he's definately keeping a very low profile.

[Ulysses G.]

He's always out and about around Chiangmai but you could say he keeps a fairly low profile. "not like us eh?"

Maybe I know him by sight, but I've never heard the name before.

[lamphun]

My lady heard Adam Cotton speaking (out of her sight and before she saw who it was) and she would have sworn that he was Thai.

Don't know how he goes on the read/write bit.

He could read and write Thai fluently 20 years ago before he moved to Chiangmai. The incredible thing is he started learning Thai while hanging out at the 209 Thai Restaurant in Kensington, London - where I first met him.

Well I met him in Chiang Mai in 1982 and he'd already been here a few years.

Edited January 2, 2007 by lamphun