Digital Nomads

[micmichd]

31 minutes ago, perthperson said:

 

And the really strange thing is they call themselves "nomads" whereas , in reality they are not. They never move -- more like sh*t stuck to a blanket. 

Even nomads might get sick or old some day, and then at last they have to settle somewhere. Unless they want to sacrifice their bodies to digital machines. 

[rwdrwdrwd]

Edit - can't be bothered.

Thankfully Thai tax legislation is not enforced by grumpy old expats.

Edited July 19, 2017 by rwdrwdrwd

[perthperson]

Just now, rwdrwdrwd said:

As I stated above - - it is simply a term for someone who is able to travel and earn their income online.
 

How do you equate "travel" with the desperate means the nomd rodents employ to remain static within Thailand ? 

[rwdrwdrwd]

The jealousy is palpable :D

[micmichd]

30 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Thai immigration authorities have already stated that as far as they are concerned -- if they are not making money locally or from local services etc. they deem the income is from foreign employment not domestic and are not interested in them.  These laws tend to be all encompassing, and it all comes down to interpretation and enforcement as to where the line is drawn.  That line might change -- and if that is the case ... currently HCM is a hot place that is a popular destination for digital nomads in the region.  

 

So it is not Thai immigration authorities that are all in a huff.... it is a bunch of foreigners that have no residency (as in permanent residency) status that are getting their panties in a knot.

So, they live in forests? And never crossed any borders where they were registered?  

Hard to believe that. Rather there is no appropriate international laws (including tax laws) for them, so they are forced to take the easiest and cheapest way. 

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, rwdrwdrwd said:

As I stated above - - it is simply a term for someone who is able to travel and earn their income online.
 

Are you deliberately being obtuse? You are now agreeing with us after disagreeing. All you have done is to simplify the meaning.

 

Digital Nomads rarely work in their countries of residence, hence the term Nomad.

 

But I am sure you will reply with another obtuse response.

[Dan5]

10 hours ago, BritTim said:

At the current time, there is plenty of evidence that digital nomads are tolerated. While it is technically illegal to work in Thailand without a work permit, the authorities understand there is no practical way of becoming legal. They know where many of the digital nomads are. This pragmatic approach could suddenly change, but I consider it unlikely.

Do you really know it is technically illegal or are you just speculating like most people. I really don't think it  is even technically illegal. As a matter of fact a long time ago when I first moved to Thailand I did some consulting work for companies in the USA. Using the internet and phone. I got some legal advice and was told its not a problem as long as the companies I do work for don't have a presence in Thailand.  Seems to me to be the equivalent of doing an online business as long as the online business isn't selling in Thailand.

[KhonKaenKowboy]

If the OP makes enough to support his family, why not just say it comes from savings abroad, or even your parents give you 40K per month, whatever.  Working online is tolerated, but then using that income earned while in Thailand to meet visa requirements would be very grey.  Elite visa doesn't give you a right to work, but would eliminate income interrogations.  An Aussie bought a coffee shop and paid 300,000 for a one year WP...even with the Thai workers, etc..The digital nomads, who are making good money don't even call themselves digital nomads (Yogi Berra).  Expertise in software is a nice earner...all the get rich schemes are BS, as well as the seminars, MLM, life coaching, personal training, and most of the affiliate marketing.  Even finding a product for a song made in China and selling on Amazon...the big players can pop you like a pimple.  And the people who paid the Ukrainians to bring them web traffic?  Google is at least two steps ahead of them, and many lost their entire investments, as Google knew the clicks were not legit.

[james1995]

there is a lot of digital people.  best to keep things quiet.  how you make a living is your business and none of theirs.

[Dan5]

1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Thai immigration authorities have already stated that as far as they are concerned -- if they are not making money locally or from local services etc. they deem the income is from foreign employment not domestic and are not interested in them.  These laws tend to be all encompassing, and it all comes down to interpretation and enforcement as to where the line is drawn.  That line might change -- and if that is the case ... currently HCM is a hot place that is a popular destination for digital nomads in the region.  

 

So it is not Thai immigration authorities that are all in a huff.... it is a bunch of foreigners that have no residency (as in permanent residency) status that are getting their panties in a knot.

 

1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Thai immigration authorities have already stated that as far as they are concerned -- if they are not making money locally or from local services etc. they deem the income is from foreign employment not domestic and are not interested in them.  These laws tend to be all encompassing, and it all comes down to interpretation and enforcement as to where the line is drawn.  That line might change -- and if that is the case ... currently HCM is a hot place that is a popular destination for digital nomads in the region.  

 

So it is not Thai immigration authorities that are all in a huff.... it is a bunch of foreigners that have no residency (as in permanent residency) status that are getting their panties in a knot.

I agree. Unfortunately there are a lot of people on this forum who represent themselves as authorities when in fact they are just speculating.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

Being a DM in Thailand is not a grey area, it is against Thai law as they do not have work permits and they are doing work that could be carried out by a Thai.

 

The reference by bk to the Thai Authorities saying it was OK to work as a DM turned out to be hearsay and misunderstanding on who said what.

http://hobowithalaptop.com/is-it-legal-to-be-a-digital-nomad-333

 

No one in any position of authority has ever said it is OK to work as a Digital Nomad.

The competitor with the Thai could be living in Thailand, or in Cambodia, or in Peru.  The location of their competition Makes No Difference as to whether he gets the job. 

 

But, the Thai worker's taxes will need to be higher if the foreigner isn't in his country, fueling their economy with foreign-capital by purchasing Thai goods and services including VAT taxes, plus generating income-taxes paid from Thai sellers, plus lowering unemployment-rates and the need for tax-supported social-services.  So, in fact, it is Much Better for the Thai competitor to have his competition living in Thailand, rather than some other country. 

 

The best way to get rid of the remaining inequity - business-taxes that a Thai might pay and the foreigner is not - would be to offer a Visa-solution that includes paying Thai taxes, without prohibitive setup costs and hiring unnecessary staff.

 

Not doing so - "cracking down" on Tourist Visas and such - means the foreign-competitor moves to a lower cost-of-living country, such as Cambodia.  At that point, the Thai-competitor loses all the benefits to his nation, above, so must pay higher taxes to his government to cover the damage of losing the foreigner's income to his country.  Plus, he how has a competitor with an even lower overhead.

 

On the DM / legality / illegality - that Chang-Mai case was when the authorities though the foreigners were being paid by the owner of the place.  No charges brought when they realized otherwise.  There are Co-Working spaces all over.  No arrests to-date.  But, arrests could start, tomorrow.

Edited July 19, 2017 by JackThompson

[KhonKaenKowboy]

The Chiang Mai Immigration guy was canned after giving that interview saying it was OK.  In the most recent interview, the IO stated he had never even heard the term, Digital Nomad.  What you do online, while you are legally here, is minute compared to getting permission to stay for years.  Sure you could probably get a year or two out of Ex visas, etc.., but as time goes by, every entry, or trip to Vientiane will get more anxious.  If I was early forties, instead of early 50s; I would not be living here.  Not the biggest fan of Cambodia, but it does have a few positives.

[KhonKaenKowboy]

Just Google Johnny FD scam and you will Gert some good humor, if not the entire truth, about the digital nomad farce in Chiang Mai.  The drop shipping king...bwahaha.  A convicted criminal.

[HampiK]

I think if thai would introduce a work permit for digital nomad (living in the country and earn money outside the country -> not can be done by a thai worker)

 

Then I hope most Digital nomad had the chance to use the correct visa and therefore pay tax on the Income (which is so far I read not clear if this have to be taxable in thai at the moment).

As long they become their money to an account outside thailand and they not transfer this money to thailand in the year they earn it.. it is taxfree at the moment.. and maybe this should be changed....

 

[Dan5]

10 minutes ago, KhonKaenKowboy said:

If the OP makes enough to support his family, why not just say it comes from savings abroad, or even your parents give you 40K per month, whatever.  Working online is tolerated, but then using that income earned while in Thailand to meet visa requirements would be very grey.  Elite visa doesn't give you a right to work, but would eliminate income interrogations.  An Aussie bought a coffee shop and paid 300,000 for a one year WP...even with the Thai workers, etc..The digital nomads, who are making good money don't even call themselves digital nomads (Yogi Berra).  Expertise in software is a nice earner...all the get rich schemes are BS, as well as the seminars, MLM, life coaching, personal training, and most of the affiliate marketing.  Even finding a product for a song made in China and selling on Amazon...the big players can pop you like a pimple.  And the people who paid the Ukrainians to bring them web traffic?  Google is at least two steps ahead of them, and many lost their entire investments, as Google knew the clicks were not legit.

There is no reason for him to say anything. Immigration just wants to know you have an income of at least 65j Baht/ month coming from outside of Thailand. You have to prove it every time you get an extension either through a proof of income from you embassy or having 800K Baht in a Thai bank account for the last 3 months. It doesn't matter how you make it. They're not going to audit your finances back in your home country.

 

As for making money on the internet. Sure most people fail, but in most case because they give up too easily. They were looking for easy, overnight success. No business is easy. It takes work and perseverance. But I personally know people who make hundreds of thousands of dollar a month on the internet and in a couple cases more than a million dollars a month. Most of them selling on Amazon and started from scratch with a .small investment, buying from China and selling on Amazon.  I don't know where you get this BS about big players popping you like a pimple.  It's just not the case. Big players are not a problem for small players. An awful lot of people make a good living on Amazon.

[whitemouse]

3 hours ago, Flustered said:

If you chose to live in a country, work from there and not pay tax on income earnt while working from that country, then yes, vermin.

 

You are denying that country legitimate tax. In other words, a tax dodger and cheat.

 

 

I once met a postman from Yorkshire, England, who's only time on Thailand was 3 weeks out of the year,  that was his hard earned vacation in Chang Rai.  He was very, very upset with people who had made different life choices :) 

 

He then retired, and lived on a small pension, just enough to survive. He was a sad, sad man. 

 

 

 

[KhonKaenKowboy]

3 minutes ago, Dan5 said:

There is no reason for him to say anything. Immigration just wants to know you have an income of at least 65j Baht/ month coming from outside of Thailand. You have to prove it every time you get an extension either through a proof of income from you embassy or having 800K Baht in a Thai bank account for the last 3 months. It doesn't matter how you make it. They're not going to audit your finances back in your home country.

 

As for making money on the internet. Sure most people fail, but in most case because they give up too easily. They were looking for easy, overnight success. No business is easy. It takes work and perseverance. But I personally know people who make hundreds of thousands of dollar a month on the internet and in a couple cases more than a million dollars a month. Most of them selling on Amazon and started from scratch with a .small investment, buying from China and selling on Amazon.  I don't know where you get this BS about big players popping you like a pimple.  It's just not the case. Big players are not a problem for small players. An awful lot of people make a good living on Amazon.

Actually, those who get the income affidavit about their 65k income can be asked for some proof from the IO.  And if you think it would be OK to go on record at Immigration and tell them you are an amazon reseller, you are sadly mistaken.  Retired, retired, retired, that ius the only occupation I ever state while in the kingdom, even if I do 50 hours of computerr activities in a week.  I forgot to mention the currency trader thing is 98% BS.

 

 

[bkkcanuck8]

 

19 minutes ago, KhonKaenKowboy said:

The Chiang Mai Immigration guy was canned after giving that interview saying it was OK.  In the most recent interview, the IO stated he had never even heard the term, Digital Nomad.  What you do online, while you are legally here, is minute compared to getting permission to stay for years.  Sure you could probably get a year or two out of Ex visas, etc.., but as time goes by, every entry, or trip to Vientiane will get more anxious.  If I was early forties, instead of early 50s; I would not be living here.  Not the biggest fan of Cambodia, but it does have a few positives.

Some people on this board must think Thai authorities are really really stupid people.  

 

If it were of concern to Thai authorities it would take about a minute to write a simple SQL query that would provide a very good list of people to follow up on and deport.  It would take a simple rule change to limit tourist visas to a max of 6 months a year (the US rule for Canadians).  

 

It is standard face saving practice to just pretend something does not exist.... who really thinks he does not know what a Digital Nomad is?  Do you think he is that stupid... I don't think anyone is that stupid.   It is like the minister in the last government claiming they have never heard of prostitution in Thailand.

 

I have been here 7 or 8 years almost consistent - yet every time I enter I state my occupation and salary.  It is right on their computer system.. easy to query, easy to find.

Edited July 19, 2017 by bkkcanuck8

[KhonKaenKowboy]

It was his way of NOT giving it a stamp of approval.  But, just think if they did have a legit way for these people to get a visa....there would have to be multiple layers of proof that they make a lot more than the drop shipping losers in Chiang Mai.  Any program is subject to widespread fraud...the Tsunami volunteers, the Ed visas, the English teachers...the have seen it all.  They won't even let the retirees volunteer.

[perthperson]

I have a solution to the rodent problem.  The rats brag about how much cash they make so ---------TRA LA  -- 

 

 

 

THE DIGITAL RODENT VISA 

 

A 12month ME visa for a fee of 1,000,000 Bht.  Extendable by 3 months for a fee of 250,000 Bht. 

 

DIGITAL WORK PERMIT --- 6 MONTHS --- 500,000 Bht. 

 

Free air con room and noodle soup meals !  Upgrade at cost + VAT. 

 

No tax liability on earnings ----

 

 

[NanLaew]

Just now, KhonKaenKowboy said:

It was his way of NOT giving it a stamp of approval.  But, just think if they did have a legit way for these people to get a visa....there would have to be multiple layers of proof that they make a lot more than the drop shipping losers in Chiang Mai.  Any program is subject to widespread fraud...the Tsunami volunteers, the Ed visas, the English teachers...the have seen it all.  They won't even let the retirees volunteer.

Agreed. Totally unworkable and patently not worth the effort since as someone posted earlier (or in another thread), a small minority of digital pikeys are banking whereas the huge preponderance of them are just getting by.

[lkv]

2 minutes ago, perthperson said:

I have a solution to the rodent problem.  The rats brag about how much cash they make so ---------TRA LA  -- 

 

 

 

THE DIGITAL RODENT VISA 

 

A 12month ME visa for a fee of 1,000,000 Bht.  Extendable by 3 months for a fee of 250,000 Bht. 

 

DIGITAL WORK PERMIT --- 6 MONTHS --- 500,000 Bht. 

 

Free air con room and noodle soup meals !  Upgrade at cost + VAT. 

 

No tax liability on earnings ----

 

 

You as a wealthy pensioneer they should milk you.

 

Perhaps you should consider going the Elite way?

[gk10002000]

11 hours ago, rkidlad said:

If you're making money from abroad and spending it here. they couldn't care less. It's only a problem (like everything else in Thailand) when it's out in the open. No one minds if the invisible man comes for dinner kinda logic. Except you're bringing your own food and leaving food for others. 

 

I know a guy who makes pretty good coin from affiliate marketing. He actually asked someone in immigration he knew about becoming legal and paying his taxes. He was told he should get an elite visa. Be sure that all his money is sourced from abroad. Money coming from China is a Brucie bonus for some reason.  

 

I'm sure many people want to become legal, pay taxes, get work permits and feel like a more productive part of Thai society. Government could collect some much wanted income tax, but it is what it is.

 

 

Even an Elite visa wouldn't get around the potential issue of working and taxes and what not.  From the Digital Nomad point of view it would be about the same as doing some stuff online while on most other visas.  The Elite visa probably would get less scrutiny, since from the beginning it doesn't involve any cash or income reporting or affirmations or requirements other than to pay up front for the Visa

[bkkcanuck8]

13 minutes ago, lkv said:

You as a wealthy pensioneer they should milk you.

 

Perhaps you should consider going the Elite way?

I am waiting for the moment (coming soon) that they change the requirements on the retirement visa -- increasing the requirements ...  which will just end up giving agents more business.  Every time the authorities say something like we want more quality rather than quantity - it is code - we want people with more money....

Edited July 19, 2017 by bkkcanuck8

[KhonKaenKowboy]

Last time people were grandfathered in so there are some her with 200,000 in show money.

[bkkcanuck8]

4 minutes ago, KhonKaenKowboy said:

Last time people were grandfathered in so there are some her with 200,000 in show money.

I would not bet on it... foreigners are a necessary evil.... if they can figure out how to get more from less foreigners... they will do so.  Foreign attitudes have caused untold number of problems by the wrong people getting weird ideas about democracy.

[Dan5]

9 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

I am waiting for the moment (coming soon) that they change the requirements on the retirement visa -- increasing the requirements ...  which will just end up giving agents more business.  Every time the authorities say something like we want more quality rather than quantity - it is code - we want people with more money....

Don't hold your breath.  Why do you think they are coming soon. Any real factual evidence or are you just blowing it out of your ....?  The requirements for a retirement visa have been the same for what 20, 30 years. And why would they want more business. It would just cost them more money. Amazing the rampant speculation here on all the bad things that might possibly happen. This site is just loaded with speculation and not much in facts.And a lot of chicken little's. 

[rkidlad]

29 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

Even an Elite visa wouldn't get around the potential issue of working and taxes and what not.  From the Digital Nomad point of view it would be about the same as doing some stuff online while on most other visas.  The Elite visa probably would get less scrutiny, since from the beginning it doesn't involve any cash or income reporting or affirmations or requirements other than to pay up front for the Visa

I think the IO meant it as a way to stay here long term. Not as a way to work here legally and pay taxes. He didn't care about the online work and knew there was no visa for it. 

 

Basically, stay and make money from abroad. No once genuinely cares. But to stay here long term? Best option is an elite visa. 

[Dan5]

Wow! Retirements visas are easy. They don't care how you make your money as long as it comes from outside Thailand. I've never heard of anyone on a retirement visa paying taxes in Thailand. And if you are an American, there is a tax agreement between Thailand and the USA which effectively means since taxes are higher in the USA, you'll never be liable in Thailand for money you made in the USA. But in any case, you aren't going to be liable for Thai taxes unless you work in Thailand or have a business in Thailand. Funny story. I know a guy who thought he might owe taxes. They wouldn't give him the tax form. They said you can't have the form unless you have a work permit.

 

All these people looking for problems that don't exist. Just relax and enjoy life in Thailand.

[micmichd]

24 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

I am waiting for the moment (coming soon) that they change the requirements on the retirement visa -- increasing the requirements ...  which will just end up giving agents more business.  Every time the authorities say something like we want more quality rather than quantity - it is code - we want people with more money....

 

25 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

I am waiting for the moment (coming soon) that they change the requirements on the retirement visa -- increasing the requirements ...  which will just end up giving agents more business.  Every time the authorities say something like we want more quality rather than quantity - it is code - we want people with more money....

Then they would get less people. There's not so many real rich pensioners left in the West.