How Much Sin-sod Did You Pay?

[meemiathai]

Imagining Bill Gates' son was to marry a thai girl and negotiates the sin sod down to 10000 baht.

If Bill Gates's son married anybody sin sod would be the last thing thought of, first I am sure would be a pre nup.

That's why I think I am lucky.

Imagine how difficult it would be for him to find a real person.

[tuky]

I say if you choose to marry a Thai then you must abide by the culture.

I say, don't forget that you have a culture too that's just as important. Compromises can be made on all sides, not just yours.

Fighting a losing battle vic?

Feels that way sometimes.

What it all boils down to is "each to their own", "there is no right or wrong" etc etc

Just go with your gut/heart feeling and most importantly respect your wife/soon to be wife.

[meemiathai]

zero baht- none!

less than 50 k

51-75k

76 to 100k

101 to 150k

151 to 200k

more than 200k

Why add an exclamation mark after "none", but not after "more than 200k"?

[CMguy]

When I first arrived in Thailand I was told the "Sin Sod" was about 500 baht. This I understand was the norm in the viliage where I was visiting, a realy nice villiage i might add with a lot of very pretty women. Most of the women there thought I was a handsome man, really they said it so often I was surprised and embarassed.

If you don't want to pay an exhorbitant Sin Sod go visit the viliage of Soi Cowboy yourself what a bargain.

[jing jing]

Imagining Bill Gates' son was to marry a thai girl and negotiates the sin sod down to 10000 baht.

If Bill Gates's son married anybody sin sod would be the last thing thought of, first I am sure would be a pre nup.

That's why I think I am lucky.

Imagine how difficult it would be for him to find a real person.

From your description of your marriage you are indeed a lucky man, meemiathai. I think we can agree that the best way to proceed is to find a compromise that makes both parties feel good about things, but if that can't happen, then maybe it wasn't meant to be.

I've got an adorable little boy and another on the way, and if I had to give my wife's mom and dad what amounted to less than one mortgage payment on my house in California to make the wedding ceremony complete, in the grand scheme of things I feel like a very lucky man too.

BTW, my wife had no children, never been married, and a degree from one of the top universities in Bangkok, so I had to factor all that in when doing the "appraisal."

[tuky]

When I first arrived in Thailand I was told the "Sin Sod" was about 500 baht. This I understand was the norm in the viliage where I was visiting, a realy nice villiage i might add with a lot of very pretty women. Most of the women there thought I was a handsome man, really they said it so often I was surprised and embarassed.

If you don't want to pay an exhorbitant Sin Sod go visit the viliage of Soi Cowboy yourself what a bargain.

Very well said mate, however it might best if you stay put in soi cowboy.

[Diablo Bob]

When I first arrived in Thailand I was told the "Sin Sod" was about 500 baht. This I understand was the norm in the viliage where I was visiting, a realy nice villiage i might add with a lot of very pretty women. Most of the women there thought I was a handsome man, really they said it so often I was surprised and embarassed.

If you don't want to pay an exhorbitant Sin Sod go visit the viliage of Soi Cowboy yourself what a bargain.

I think you are confusing "Sin-sod" with "Bar fine!"

Edited January 2, 2007 by Diablo Bob

[mrbojangles]

Everyone I know who's married paid zero.

Yep, same here. I didn't pay anything for a sin sod then but i sure am paying now

[britmaveric]

Everyone I know who's married paid zero.

Yep, same here. I didn't pay anything for a sin sod then but i sure am paying now

Jangles.... Ahhh but happy!!!!

[SanukJoe]

I say if you choose to marry a Thai then you must abide by the culture.

I say, don't forget that you have a culture too that's just as important. Compromises can be made on all sides, not just yours.

Farang have a culture too?

Years ago I was working for a US chemical company, and on one of the semestrial sales meetings my french colleague made this hilarious remark: the only culture USA has is the agriculture... sorry guys but I have to crawl over the floor again..... Western world has lost culture long ago, we have habits, maybe traditions like father pays wedding of daughter, but that is hardly called culture, we are losers as far as culture is concerned. Who cares, we have Coca Cola, McDonalds, Taco Bell and more franchise chains who made us look so well (fat), me included

[SanukJoe]

No doubt it seems awfully "anti-romantic" to think of your bride-to-be in terms of her market value, and if it makes you feel better then don't think of it that way, but the fact remains that in many cases that is how her family and friends will determine what the number should be. Romance, as should be obvious from the etymology of the word, is a Western ideal, and our way of looking at relationships is not necessarily the same as the Thai way.

I paid what I considered to be a generous amount, however, the number originally mentioned was astronomical... I paid about 1/20th of that. Moral of the story: everything is negotiable. The first number you hear is definitely not what they are expecting; more like their wildest dreams of hitting the lottery.

It's obvious that a lot of guys haven't understood the meaning of sin sot, why don't you read the excellent topic Tuky mentioned earlier? Sin sot is NOT the value of your to be wife!!! You should be ashamed to think of a money value of your lady. Sin sot is a form of respect for your wife's parents, to show you can take care of a family AND a kind of compensation for taking their daughter away, so taking away labour. The daughter obviously worked in the house, cooked or worked on the farm, that is lost when you marry her, so the sin sot is also to compensate that. Please understand the real meaning before you judge!

Joe

[Naam]

You should be ashamed to think of a money value of your lady. Sin sot is a form of respect for your wife's parents, to show you can take care of a family AND a kind of compensation for taking their daughter away, so taking away labour. The daughter obviously worked in the house, cooked or worked on the farm, that is lost when you marry her, so the sin sot is also to compensate that.

i married an asian lady from a country where the parents are supposed to pay a hefty dowry to the future son-in-law and/or his family. it took a lot of persuasion and later a blunt and even angry reaction from my side to make them understand that i won't accept neither cash nor presents. finally, to save their face i had to accept one valuable present.

[Neeranam]

It's obvious that a lot of guys haven't understood the meaning of sin sot, why don't you read the excellent topic Tuky mentioned earlier? Sin sot is NOT the value of your to be wife!!! You should be ashamed to think of a money value of your lady. Sin sot is a form of respect for your wife's parents, to show you can take care of a family AND a kind of compensation for taking their daughter away, so taking away labour. The daughter obviously worked in the house, cooked or worked on the farm, that is lost when you marry her, so the sin sot is also to compensate that. Please understand the real meaning before you judge!

Joe

How long have you been living in Thailand Joe?

[Showtime]

Why not just flash a copy of one of your bank statements rather than pay sid sod to show you can take care of your new wife? Of course that doesn't meet the requirement to show off to the village, but in life things don't always go your way and you don't always get everything you want. Besides you have to pay for your wife for the rest of your life. Better yet they should pay you sid sod for that since you are saving them all those expenses. In fact, in some Asian cultures the new wife's family pays the new husband.

[Thaddeus]

hi all.

i'm the original poster of this question/poll. thanks for all the great viewpoints.

<snip>

but here's my NEW dilemna.... HOW MUCH?

<snip>

If you are going to do the traditional Thai marriage, you should go the whole hog.

Every wedding I have attended here has been preceded by a sin sort negotiation party. This can happen weeks or months before the due date and involves the heads of both families and good friends of same sitting at opposite sides of the room shouting "she's worth more than that" .... "no she isn't" .... but in my experience is always conducted with good humour.

If is has been decided beforehand that the money will be returned, the good humour factor can get to ridiculous levels.

If the money is not to be returned, the good humour remains, but a serious, acceptable amount is finally decided on.

If you are a sole farang, it is acceptable for your wife to be to sit on your side rather than with her family and negotiate on your behalf....... it's a good test

[Neeranam]

If you are a sole farang, it is acceptable for your wife to be to sit on your side rather than with her family and negotiate on your behalf....... it's a good test

When Thais do it the 'poo yai'(relative/friends) do the talking usually.

When I got married I had a close older Thai friend there.

If you don't have a Thai friend that you can really trust be very careful unless you have money to throw away.

I know a woman on a well-known intertnet dating site(she's still there) who has been married 3 times in the last 5 years. She's dating a guy I know and asking for 200,000 dowry. He is new to Thailand and thinks he is poor - he only gets 100,000 a month pension and his house in Norway is only worth about 5 million baht. His is thinking of paying it, regardless of what I tell him(she's got a good heart)

I also knew the last guy she married and got a 1.5 million baht house out of him and a dowry.

What a dilemma. I think I should let these guys talk to each other. You should have seen the womans face when she met me again!

Sin sot is abused by Thai women out JUST to rip off the farang.

Edited January 3, 2007 by Neeranam

[Bruce1]

So, have I got this right?

Sin sod is not actually about the daughter, it's about paying respect to her family?

Yet, if the daughter has been married before and has a kid, sin sod is not necessary? Is that because the family has already been paid once, or because the failure of the daughter's marriage has caused her family to lose face?

Also, what if the daughter is educated, financially independent with a good job, and doesn't live at home or in the village? How does that make any difference to the amount of sin sod, if it's supposed to be about respect for the family?

If the daughter has adopted a western lifestyle, sin sod is unnecessary?

I read the article and the interesting posts, but I'm still a bit confused. This is obviously a situation which is changing from the traditional under western influence.

What if the groom just says, "Look, let's forget sin sod and instead I'll buy a house for us and the family can live here if they need to." Does that work?

[Furbie]

I see this topic is still one that brings up a load of issues. Here is what I know – I make no judgments on those who choose not to pay sin sod, though the Thai's I know would not look favorably on you for this, and those paying high sin sod for bar girls are pretty foolish.

I have worked in several offices in Bangkok and have had interactions with a middle level to high (not quite in the newspapers) level of people in Thailand – most from Bangkok, some from major provincial capitals – I have no personal experience with close friends or colleagues marrying someone from a village, whom I would be close enough to ask about these maters and expect a real/true answer. So again, let me be clear - aside from drinking out with the buddies, my interaction with Thai's and discussions related to these matters has been with educated, well employed Thai people.

So, here is what I know:

1) Every single Thai woman who I have worked with received a sin sod. In one case, the woman was divorced and had two children from a previous marriage - her sin sod was large, over 750k Baht. I can assure you, I know a couple of the girls in the office who were definitely not virgins before they got married and sin sod was paid.

2) Every single Thai man I work with paid a sin sod – I am excluding drivers and messengers, as I do not have life conversations with them.

3) Every Thai female I work with is horrified when I mention that some Westerners refuse to pay sin sod – they view these people in very negative terms, and tend to state they do not understand or respect Thai culture.

4) Of the Western men I know well (I should say know their story) who have gotten married to respectable Thai women, one paid a sin sod of around 200k, the other did not pay a sin sod – no one in the office thinks the second person did the right thing and really look down on him for it. Another friend plans to get married and there are issues over sin sod – the girl is horrified he will not pay some form of sin sod - the families face is on the line – it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

5) In some cases, the sin sod went toward something, a down payment on a condo or something similar. But with many people, I was not close enough to them to ascertain what became of the money – ie, was it only for show – it is a personal question and Thai's can be touchy, many will be quick to tell you how much was involved, but will shut down completely if you ask them what became of the money.

Though not a "going rate," as some said, the girl's educational background, income, family history, and the man's status all seemed to play a role in the amount. It also seems (though I have only anecdotal evidence) that the Chinese-Thais pay more in sin sod. Why this is, I have no idea.

Again, I make no sweeping generalizations – these are people I know.

[KireB]

Western world has lost culture long ago, we have habits, maybe traditions like father pays wedding of daughter, but that is hardly called culture, we are losers as far as culture is concerned.

Sanuk Joe, what happened to you backhome?

You're talking complete B#$$! As a fact, I am very proud of my culture and I have certainly not lost it!

It looks to me you are looking for reasons to justify your own actions concerning the Sin Sot!

Shame on you!

[bdenner]

I volinteered and all I paid was 62100 Baht to get her families Shanot out of the 'land bank', the loan was for her fathers hospital bills (car accident), he died anyway. The title was placed on the plate during the traditional Isaan wedding, near on 6 years ago, and all were very greatful. The land had a small bungalow on it, I extended it for my and TWs accomodations and to this day we are very happy and well settled. A big benefit to all parties for a piddly sum of money.

[old wanderer]

I see this topic is still one that brings up a load of issues. Here is what I know – I make no judgments on those who choose not to pay sin sod, though the Thai's I know would not look favorably on you for this, and those paying high sin sod for bar girls are pretty foolish.

I have worked in several offices in Bangkok and have had interactions with a middle level to high (not quite in the newspapers) level of people in Thailand – most from Bangkok, some from major provincial capitals – I have no personal experience with close friends or colleagues marrying someone from a village, whom I would be close enough to ask about these maters and expect a real/true answer. So again, let me be clear - aside from drinking out with the buddies, my interaction with Thai's and discussions related to these matters has been with educated, well employed Thai people.

So, here is what I know:

1) Every single Thai woman who I have worked with received a sin sod. In one case, the woman was divorced and had two children from a previous marriage - her sin sod was large, over 750k Baht. I can assure you, I know a couple of the girls in the office who were definitely not virgins before they got married and sin sod was paid.

2) Every single Thai man I work with paid a sin sod – I am excluding drivers and messengers, as I do not have life conversations with them.

3) Every Thai female I work with is horrified when I mention that some Westerners refuse to pay sin sod – they view these people in very negative terms, and tend to state they do not understand or respect Thai culture.

4) Of the Western men I know well (I should say know their story) who have gotten married to respectable Thai women, one paid a sin sod of around 200k, the other did not pay a sin sod – no one in the office thinks the second person did the right thing and really look down on him for it. Another friend plans to get married and there are issues over sin sod – the girl is horrified he will not pay some form of sin sod - the families face is on the line – it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

5) In some cases, the sin sod went toward something, a down payment on a condo or something similar. But with many people, I was not close enough to them to ascertain what became of the money – ie, was it only for show – it is a personal question and Thai's can be touchy, many will be quick to tell you how much was involved, but will shut down completely if you ask them what became of the money.

Though not a "going rate," as some said, the girl's educational background, income, family history, and the man's status all seemed to play a role in the amount. It also seems (though I have only anecdotal evidence) that the Chinese-Thais pay more in sin sod. Why this is, I have no idea.

Again, I make no sweeping generalizations – these are people I know.

This is pretty much right on for how I have understood it. I have previously posted my feeling, and don't need to repeat them.

My greatest reason personally to pay sin sod was to make my wife happy. We did not negociate, and I think she was a bit worried I would be keen yow, so the night before we married she gave me 100,000 baht to add to what ever I was going to bring to the wedding....Her eyes werer pretty big when I showed up....I had to make a last minute run to buy another gold platter to carry all the money on.

My biggest worry was not the money, or what would happen to it, but being a farrang in a small village with enough sin sod to buy the whole village sort of invited some bandito to make a try...that is why I refused to disclose how much until the wedding and the public counting of the money, gold, and jewlery.

Looking back 4 years ago, what would have been different in my life if I did not offer any sin sod??? Well for me personally,,,,I would have pissed the money away on something else. As it is I have a very content wife, and village that give me a lot of respect as well as that of my wife.

My feeling is talk to your GF and see how she really feels. If she is a bar girl....well some have chi dee, and some have chi dum, and some are in between, as all women.

As I said in an earlier post if I was offered a refund of 30x of my sin sod, I would refuse it.

[raro]

I say if you choose to marry a Thai then you must abide by the culture.

I say, don't forget that you have a culture too that's just as important. Compromises can be made on all sides, not just yours.

Farang have a culture too?

....if they are from Europe...

[SanukJoe]

It's obvious that a lot of guys haven't understood the meaning of sin sot, why don't you read the excellent topic Tuky mentioned earlier? Sin sot is NOT the value of your to be wife!!! You should be ashamed to think of a money value of your lady. Sin sot is a form of respect for your wife's parents, to show you can take care of a family AND a kind of compensation for taking their daughter away, so taking away labour. The daughter obviously worked in the house, cooked or worked on the farm, that is lost when you marry her, so the sin sot is also to compensate that. Please understand the real meaning before you judge!

Joe

How long have you been living in Thailand Joe?

As you probably have seen I am not living in Thailand now, but will in one month from now.

I don't think you have to live there to know about culture and social life. I have the pleasant habit of reading a lot if something interests me, and listen to people who are worth listening to. That way I learned a lot, including about Thailand and the culture and social life.

On top I have a thai wife and thai kids, I have been many times in Thailand, most of the times in the little Isaan village of my wife and family, the village where I will live too.

My post here is based on the thread Tuky mentioned in one of the first posts, it explains Sin sot very clearly and confirms my experience (and of a lot of other posters). So what's the problem?

Tuky, can you put the link again? A lot of people here need to read it.

[Bruce1]

I think Aussie culture is moving generally towards both families sharing the cost of the wedding. Beyond that, they might help the couple to make a deposit on land or an apartment or something similar. Since the elderly usually qualify for pensions, their children's support is usually not for income but to ensure they have suitable accommodation in old age, and get the care they need.

But, that's a completely different situation to in Thailand of course.

So I suppose the overall aim in Thailand is to ensure the incoming husband contributes to the upkeep of the wife's family and looks after her suitably ie pulls his weight and doesn't slope about sponging off them. That's fair enough, by my way of thinking. Who wants to marry a lazy nohoper or accept such a person into the family?

Would the purchase of a house for the wife and, if they needed it in their old age, her parents, be counted as an acceptable sin sod, rather than showing up at the wedding with a bag of actual cash?

[SanukJoe]

Western world has lost culture long ago, we have habits, maybe traditions like father pays wedding of daughter, but that is hardly called culture, we are losers as far as culture is concerned.

Sanuk Joe, what happened to you backhome?

You're talking complete B#$$! As a fact, I am very proud of my culture and I have certainly not lost it!

It looks to me you are looking for reasons to justify your own actions concerning the Sin Sot!

Shame on you!

Hey relax, I was joking! Where is your sense of humour?

I don't have to justify anything, I'm happy with my thai wife and kids and will be living to Sanuk for as long as I live. Cheers!

If you want to go into it: here we are talking of social behaviour in a culture. Asian countries have much more of this left than the western world. I'm a Dutchman and I can tell you that in Holland there is hardly any social behaviour as part of the culture, if any at all. Some countries have kept more of it, like GB, but by far not as much as asian countries have, including Thailand.

Joe (I buy you a beer if I meet you )

[terry57]

Western world has lost culture long ago, we have habits, maybe traditions like father pays wedding of daughter, but that is hardly called culture, we are losers as far as culture is concerned.

Sanuk Joe, what happened to you backhome?

You're talking complete B#$$! As a fact, I am very proud of my culture and I have certainly not lost it!

It looks to me you are looking for reasons to justify your own actions concerning the Sin Sot!

Shame on you!

some people might not like this but here we go.

i have travelled widely through out asia and experienced many different culture's.

when im home in australia, i find we have no real culture as we are only 200 odd years old.

i said this to a lady one time at night school and she freaked out at me like i had killed her mother.

i feel that backyard BBQ'S, going to the beach, the pub, football and cricket is not a culture but mearly something that aussies are famous for and like to do.

i can see what joe is talking about regards culture as thailand has a real culture in my way of thinking.

where do you come from and what is your culture?

attacking joe for his views is not a very smart thing to do as he is doing his best to keep this debate civil.

it seems to be that sin sot is a big part of thai culture and the people that agree with this far out way the people that dont.

it does not concern me and im only reading this thread trying to get a handle on it.

[meemiathai]

I don't think you have to live there to know about culture and social life.

Agreed. So many farangs living in Thailand for such a long time and can't even grasp the simple meaning of the word "farang"! It really has amazed me!

And I have never lived in Thailand.

Edited January 3, 2007 by meemiathai

[jing jing]

No doubt it seems awfully "anti-romantic" to think of your bride-to-be in terms of her market value, and if it makes you feel better then don't think of it that way, but the fact remains that in many cases that is how her family and friends will determine what the number should be. Romance, as should be obvious from the etymology of the word, is a Western ideal, and our way of looking at relationships is not necessarily the same as the Thai way.

I paid what I considered to be a generous amount, however, the number originally mentioned was astronomical... I paid about 1/20th of that. Moral of the story: everything is negotiable. The first number you hear is definitely not what they are expecting; more like their wildest dreams of hitting the lottery.

It's obvious that a lot of guys haven't understood the meaning of sin sot, why don't you read the excellent topic Tuky mentioned earlier? Sin sot is NOT the value of your to be wife!!! You should be ashamed to think of a money value of your lady. Sin sot is a form of respect for your wife's parents, to show you can take care of a family AND a kind of compensation for taking their daughter away, so taking away labour. The daughter obviously worked in the house, cooked or worked on the farm, that is lost when you marry her, so the sin sot is also to compensate that. Please understand the real meaning before you judge!

Joe

Joe, with all due respect, you don't know my wife or her family (and I don't know yours either), so we really shouldn't lecture each other about what sinsot means to our respective wives or families. When we met, my wife had a university degree and worked in an office in Bangkok. She never worked in the house, cooked, or worked on the farm.

Some folks have said they didn't negotiate their sinsot. That's all well and good for them, but in my case and most others, it had to be negotiated. Every situation is different and I would be the last person to judge anyone for doing it differently than myself. My only beef is with guys who pay a price completely out of proportion to what is appropriate for the lady in question, thus causing unreasonable expectations for the next bloke who comes along wanting to marry her cousin or neighbor across the fish pond. That's why folks who know will tell you that if you don't know what a fair number is, you should have a trusted Thai person on your side of the negotiating table.

You may look at it however you wish but the fact remains, if you paid a sinsot, whatever that amount was represents a certain money value that you paid for the privelege of marrying your wife. Again, I paid sinsot myself so am hardly in a position to "judge" anyone else who did so.

[elle]

I am an Isaan woman who got married to my beloved farang hubby.

Sin sot...very interesting debate. I am very very thankful to Joe as he has spoken out for us, Isaan people. Sin sot is not a scam. . You aren't asked to pay for a sin sod because you are a farang. Sin sot tradition has long been existed before you were born. We did not create a sin sot to rib off farangs.

I am an only child, well-educated, but from a very poor family. My parents did everything for me as they wish I could have a better life than them. Every single Baht they earned was put into my education. Therefore, giving my parent a sin sot is really something that I must do. It shows the respect to my parents and also a sign of responsibility.

My husband paid more than 300k for my sin sod and that was never returned to us. He never asked for it, anyway. He did it because he respects the culture and the parents. I am glad I am married to a man like him.

I feel sorry for those women who ended up with those who consider sin sot a scam. Those girls hurted their parents, and trust me, it will disturbs them for the rest of their life as they did not do what a good daughter should do.

Sin sod doesn't need to be a big amount. It depends on the agreement between the family and the groom. If it is too high for you, you can make it low. Your wife to be is the best person to help you talking to the parents or she even could help paying for the sin sod as many Thais also do so. No parents want to hurt their daughters and will do what is proper for her.

If you still think sin sot is a complete scam, or unwillingly pay for it, don't bother to marry a Thai woman at all.

[britmaveric]

elle, one thing you forget not every thai lady is the same, nor are there families. If sinsot worked for you than I am happy for you, however the next couple it might not be necessary.