Red shirts reconciled to grim future

[ChidlomDweller]

10 minutes ago, heybruce said:

" Every coup in Thailand army say same two thing. Protect monarchy and stop corruption."

 

Note that they never mention defending the people, or democratic government, or the country.  Also, diverting a significant part of the military budget into the pockets of the generals, and making huge profits from managing border smuggling, aren't corruption in the minds of the generals, to them these things are just traditional ways of doing business.

 

People who think the generals are interested in the well-being of all Thais are fools.  For all its many faults, democracy allows the people to change government peacefully.  It's change that the generals are really opposed to.

Exactly.  If you do some historical research and read articles with the rationale for a coup across the past 80 years, it's like groundhog day.  Those with the benefit of a Western education really should know better than to fall for it.  

 

The system needs to flush itself out at the voting booth, but the elites in power (military, bureaucracy, business oligarchs) know they're much better off with the status quo.  Indonesia is a good role model.  Not perfect, but the long-term trend is positive.

Edited July 23, 2017 by ChidlomDweller

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, Pridilives said:

Funny how, if red be so violent. Why most people die are red. Seem most violence come from elsewhere.

Nonsense. 

 

I was here when the UDD thugs were enforcing their views on everyone who disagreed with then. 

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, Pridilives said:

Even these ones?

 

 

This is what red shirt look like!

This is about UDD thugs. 

 

That is who I am talking about. 

 

As you well know. 

 

 

[Pridilives]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

This is about UDD thugs. 

 

That is who I am talking about. 

 

As you well know. 

 

 

Is there such a thing as PDRC thugs?

how many red shirts are classified as thugs?

where do you get your information as to whether a particular red shirt is thug or not?

what percent red shirt is thug what percent is old lady?

is PDRC thug more or less red thug? 

How you know to answer above question.

not any proof just prejudice.

you know nothing! Just call name.

 

[Pridilives]

6 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Nonsense. 

 

I was here when the UDD thugs were enforcing their views on everyone who disagreed with then. 

I here my whole life. Mean what. 

Why more red die than yellow die if red be most violent?

[Bluespunk]

2 minutes ago, Pridilives said:

Is there such a thing as PDRC thugs?

how many red shirts are classified as thugs?

where do you get your information as to whether a particular red shirt is thug or not?

what percent red shirt is thug what percent is old lady?

is PDRC thug more or less red thug? 

How you know to answer above question.

not any proof just prejudice.

you know nothing! Just call name.

 

I have always condemned sutheps lunacy. 

 

He is no better than the UDD. 

 

Unlike you i condemn on the basis of actions, not a political bias.  

[Bluespunk]

2 minutes ago, Pridilives said:

I here my whole life. Mean what. 

Why more red die than yellow die if red be most violent?

Thugs are thugs because of what they do. 

 

The colour of their political bias is irrelevant. 

[Pridilives]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

I have always condemned sutheps lunacy. 

 

He is no better than the UDD. 

 

Unlike you i condemn on the basis of actions, not a political bias.  

No. You condemn many on actions few just to suit your belief. Not impartial. Not honest. If honest say red shirt have some thug AND have many many good people just want fair election. Unlike you I recognise both side have some thug but only one side want democracy. I also recognise who start problem by not accept election outcome. Remember never ever have red shirt if not have yellow shirt first.

[Bluespunk]

3 minutes ago, Pridilives said:

No. You condemn many on actions few just to suit your belief. Not impartial. Not honest. If honest say red shirt have some thug AND have many many good people just want fair election. Unlike you I recognise both side have some thug but only one side want democracy. I also recognise who start problem by not accept election outcome. Remember never ever have red shirt if not have yellow shirt first.

Nonsense. 

 

I have always condemned actions I regard as intolerant.

 

You only ever ever condemn one side.  

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, Pridilives said:

No. You condemn many on actions few just to suit your belief. Not impartial. Not honest. If honest say red shirt have some thug AND have many many good people just want fair election. Unlike you I recognise both side have some thug but only one side want democracy. I also recognise who start problem by not accept election outcome. Remember never ever have red shirt if not have yellow shirt first.

Well put.

[YetAnother]

9 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

There is much to dislike about the red-Shirts.

 

However, for better or worse, they have brought the issues of poverty and lack of opportunities for political participation to the fore. And given the disparities of wealth and power in Thailand, that is a good thing.

 

Until Thailand manages to allow those voices, concentrated in the north and north east, to have a legitimate opportunity to participate, the troubles will continue.

 

People can be put in jail, but the ideas that led to the Red Shirts remain, and ideas tend to stick around.

 

 

absolutely correct; trouble is that 'by all means possible' means exactly that to the redshirt leaders; since 2001, their leadership has been abhorrent

[Samui Bodoh]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Perhaps the red shirts organization would have a bit more credibility if they weren't led, and owe their unquestioning allegiance to, a fugitive from the law and a corruption sentence who used to be, and perhaps still is, one of the richest men (formerly) in Thailand. One who illegally used his former position of power to substantially increase his personal wealth and of those in his inner circle -- all the while his followers continued to be scrapping for table scraps.

 

 

I am not going to try to defend Thaksin; I suspect that my views of him are quite similar to yours.

 

However, I have a question.

 

Who funds the Democrat Party? They do have a budget similar to the PTT, they do pay for votes in the same way, they do hold rallies, etc. Where did the money for the PDRC come from? That little adventure likely needed well over a hundred million baht. Who paid?

 

Perhaps some people believe that the party scrapes by on a few baht donated by little old ladies in Nathon Nowhere, but I find that hard to believe. I can only speculate, but I think that the people who fund the Democrats are probably very similar to Thaksin, but we don't know their names. And how did those people make their money? Given what we all know of Thailand, it is likely that they made their money in a similar fashion as Thaksin. 

 

And have the southern support base of the Democrats fared well? I will use your phrase; "all the while [their] followers continued to be scrapping for table scraps".

 

There are very legitimate concerns about money and leadership in Thai politics, but I often think that it is an extreme case of "the pot calling the kettle black"

 

Cheers

 

 

[Pridilives]

2 minutes ago, YetAnother said:

absolutely correct; trouble is that 'by all means possible' means exactly that to the redshirt leaders; since 2001, their leadership has been abhorrent

Wrong. Red shirt stay very quiet for 3 year now. Don't try anything. Just wait election. Good leadership from red ran nobody die any side.

[robblok]

Always good to see those clips back of the red hate speech.. funny that the red lovers here can't come up with video evidence to counter it.

 

Just remember the yellows were having a peaceful protest in Trad and the reds went out there to kill them.. Young kids were killed. They basically admitted on camera that their side dit it. Such low scum. Did you see those woman cheering for the deaths of those people. Yes red shirts are good... pffff. I have yet to see the yellows to go out of their way to kill people.. or bomb hospitals. 

 

Or people saying why more red die then yellow.. Just how many kids were killed on the red side.. or how many hospitals bombed by people with yellow sympathies.

 

Then why more red died.. because they picked a fight with the army at times instead of killing yellow shirts and kids. For once they picked on someone stronger and lost.  

[Pridilives]

16 minutes ago, robblok said:

Always good to see those clips back of the red hate speech.. funny that the red lovers here can't come up with video evidence to counter it.

 

Just remember the yellows were having a peaceful protest in Trad and the reds went out there to kill them.. Young kids were killed. They basically admitted on camera that their side dit it. Such low scum. Did you see those woman cheering for the deaths of those people. Yes red shirts are good... pffff. I have yet to see the yellows to go out of their way to kill people.. or bomb hospitals. 

 

Or people saying why more red die then yellow.. Just how many kids were killed on the red side.. or how many hospitals bombed by people with yellow sympathies.

 

Then why more red died.. because they picked a fight with the army at times instead of killing yellow shirts and kids. For once they picked on someone stronger and lost.  

If you cannot acknowledge the obvious fact army and yellow are the same side everything you say is worthless. Again I repeat if never have yellow shirt there never be red shirt. You hate red because red have some thug. Why you don't hate yellow when yello have some thug. More important why you hate democracy. Only red gonna bring democracy to Thailand. 

[ChidlomDweller]

53 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Thugs are thugs because of what they do. 

 

The colour of their political bias is irrelevant. 

No moral ambuity, ever for you, eh!?  By your definition von Stauffenberg was a thug, but in my book he's a great hero.  I was glad to see the Arab Spring happen (didn't end well, sadly), will be glad if the Maduro government is toppled by "thugs", and so on.  The whole field of Ethics is about exploring those ambiguities, and I think it's a lot more interesting than having to see everything black and white.  The Red shirts themselves don't help the moral ambiguity.  Especially the leadership come across like they're just waiting for their time to feed at the trough.  But what about the military?  To read some of the ardent coup supporters here, you'd think the country was going to be run by UN technocrats for a generation, to put things right.

Edited July 23, 2017 by ChidlomDweller

[SheungWan]

43 minutes ago, Pridilives said:

Wrong. Red shirt stay very quiet for 3 year now. Don't try anything. Just wait election. Good leadership from red ran nobody die any side.

Only quiet because they have been progressively boxed in.

[ChidlomDweller]

36 minutes ago, robblok said:

Always good to see those clips back of the red hate speech.. funny that the red lovers here can't come up with video evidence to counter it.

 

Just remember the yellows were having a peaceful protest in Trad and the reds went out there to kill them.. Young kids were killed. They basically admitted on camera that their side dit it. Such low scum. Did you see those woman cheering for the deaths of those people. Yes red shirts are good... pffff. I have yet to see the yellows to go out of their way to kill people.. or bomb hospitals. 

 

Or people saying why more red die then yellow.. Just how many kids were killed on the red side.. or how many hospitals bombed by people with yellow sympathies.

 

Then why more red died.. because they picked a fight with the army at times instead of killing yellow shirts and kids. For once they picked on someone stronger and lost.  

Who are the red shirts here?  The vast majority of foreigners I know are anti-junta, anti-yellow, anti-elites.  It's not a particularly hard concept to grasp that if you find the yellow side more despicable, it doesn't make you a supporter of the reds.

[Bluespunk]

6 minutes ago, ChidlomDweller said:

No moral ambuity, ever for you, eh!?  By your definition von Stauffenberg was a thug, but in my book he's a great hero.  I was glad to see the Arab Spring happen (didn't end well, sadly), will be glad if the Maduro government is toppled by "thugs", and so on.  The whole field of Ethics is about exploring those ambiguities, and I think it's a lot more interesting than having to see everything black and white.  The Red shirts themselves don't help the moral ambiguity.  Especially the leadership come across like they're just waiting for their time to feed at the trough.  But what about the military?  To read some of the ardent coup supporters here, you'd think the country was going to be run by UN technocrats for a generation, to put things right.

I judge the UDD and other thugs on their actions. 

 

If they act in an intolerant, violent, bullying like manner, then they are thugs. 

 

Before you have a pop at a person's definition of a thug, you might want to find out what it is first. 

 

 

[SheungWan]

14 minutes ago, ChidlomDweller said:

No moral ambuity, ever for you, eh!?  By your definition von Stauffenberg was a thug, but in my book he's a great hero.  I was glad to see the Arab Spring happen (didn't end well, sadly), will be glad if the Maduro government is toppled by "thugs", and so on.  The whole field of Ethics is about exploring those ambiguities, and I think it's a lot more interesting than having to see everything black and white.  The Red shirts themselves don't help the moral ambiguity.  Especially the leadership come across like they're just waiting for their time to feed at the trough.  But what about the military?  To read some of the ardent coup supporters here, you'd think the country was going to be run by UN technocrats for a generation, to put things right.

The real world is not an academic speculative chit-chat in a bar on the Khao San Road

Edited July 23, 2017 by SheungWan

[SheungWan]

3 minutes ago, ChidlomDweller said:

Who are the red shirts here?  The vast majority of foreigners I know are anti-junta, anti-yellow, anti-elites.  It's not a particularly hard concept to grasp that if you find the yellow side more despicable, it doesn't make you a supporter of the reds.

Giving cover to Thaksin is the easy yardstick.

[Pridilives]

5 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Only quiet because they have been progressively boxed in.

Wrong.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/thaksins-message-to-supporters-play-dead

[Pridilives]

5 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I judge the UDD and other thugs on their actions. 

 

If they act in an intolerant, violent, bullying like manner, then they are thugs. 

 

Before you have a pop at a person's definition of a thug, you might want to find out what it is first. 

 

 

Intolerant, violent, bullying like manner - exactly be junta. Yes or no?

[SheungWan]

1 minute ago, Pridilives said:

Wrong.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/thaksins-message-to-supporters-play-dead

Typical of Thaksin to put a spin on what is actually happening.

[ChidlomDweller]

4 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The real world is not an academic speculative chit-chat in a bar on the Khao San Road

Oh come on, try to at least make a thoughtful counterpoint.  

[SheungWan]

1 minute ago, Pridilives said:

Intolerant, violent, bullying like manner - exactly be junta. Yes or no?

Handle Thaksin with kid gloves and he will let loose the hyenas.

[tomwct]

Jataporn is a real thug, but don't worry Thaksin will pay him for everyday he does prison time. He'll have some nice money whenever he's released. He's part of Thaksin's Army!

Edited July 23, 2017 by tomwct

[ChidlomDweller]

12 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Giving cover to Thaksin is the easy yardstick.

"Easy" being the operative word.  That explains the popularity among junta apologists.

 

Seriously, it's a retarded argument and hard to take anyone seriously who makes it.  Instead of hating on everyone against the junta, try to think of some ideas on how to take the country forward and do something about the disparities here.

 

What I wanted to see in 2013 was letting the Thaksin clan implode on themselves for another couple of years, and meanwhile use the system the curb the worst excesses.  Eventually the political space would be filled with more decent and worth alternatives.  The position you're taking is just a recipe for the next 80 years to be the same as the past 80.  I'd rather stake my far-fetched hopes on democracy, and would appreciate not being called a redshirt in the meanwhile.

Edited July 23, 2017 by ChidlomDweller

[Pridilives]

3 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Typical of Thaksin to put a spin on what is actually happening.

Deceive yourself however you want. Thaksin wants to win at election not in street. Nobody need die if election. So election is good thing

Edited July 23, 2017 by Pridilives

[SheungWan]

4 minutes ago, Pridilives said:

Deceive yourself however you want. Thaksin wants to win at election not in street. Nobody need die if election.

Thaksin wants everything for his family business: the police force, the judiciary, the army, the State.

Edited July 23, 2017 by SheungWan