Ex-PM Yingluck challenges Thailand's top court

[robblok]

Just now, yellowboat said:

Agreed.  Had she not tried to pardon her brother and toy with economic fundamentals supply and demand, she was on her way in becoming a leader with a great legacy.  She was actually good for the country. 

Not saying she was a great leader, however had she not chosen her brother over the people of Thailand and steered clear of the rice program I doubt a coup would have happened. Too bad would have been much better then a coup. But it did show where her loyalties were.

[thaiguzzi]

5 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

What a utopia.

 

And during that time, the PTP years, the Shin family wealth, as noted by their patriarch himself, increased 450%.

 

Now, how much do you think the wealth of the average Thai families increased in the same period?

 

Help the poor - as in throw some table scraps, providing the voted for the right people of course. And didn't expect more.

 

Another condo dwelling snob...

Utopia?

Keep 'em lean, keep 'em mean, eh?

Average wealth increase? Ask any self employed business owner how good the times were back then. I have many Thai friends from all walks of life, everyone misses the good days back then.And moans about business today.

Table scraps - well, clinics on your doorstep, and actually being able to walk out of your front door onto a concrete road rather than a mud hole, or the whole of the front of your house not covered in red dust anymore, or the village having access to reliable water in the dry season, yeah ok call 'em table scraps.  I call it a vast improvement in quality of life.

[Baerboxer]

4 minutes ago, yellowboat said:

Agreed.  Had she not tried to pardon her brother and toy with economic fundamentals of supply and demand, she was on her way in becoming a leader with a great legacy.  She was actually good for the country. 

 

Can you list her achievements please?

 

Especially the ones and future plans that were good for the country and would have cemented a great legacy?

[LannaGuy]

16 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

What a utopia.

 

And during that time, the PTP years, the Shin family wealth, as noted by their patriarch himself, increased 450%.

 

Now, how much do you think the wealth of the average Thai families increased in the same period?

 

Help the poor - as in throw some table scraps, providing the voted for the right people of course. And didn't expect more.

Well.. whatever you say Thais were far happier back then, I hear it daily, They were not angels but he was the best PM this country ever had and Thais know it. If I were Prayut I'd have let her slip away into history but oh no he couldn't do that he had to let the famous 'Thai vindictive' streak lash out upon her innocent back.

[Baerboxer]

3 minutes ago, thaiguzzi said:

 

Another condo dwelling snob...

Utopia?

Keep 'em lean, keep 'em mean, eh?

Average wealth increase? Ask any self employed business owner how good the times were back then. I have many Thai friends from all walks of life, everyone misses the good days back then.And moans about business today.

Table scraps - well, clinics on your doorstep, and actually being able to walk out of your front door onto a concrete road rather than a mud hole, or the whole of the front of your house not covered in red dust anymore, or the village having access to reliable water in the dry season, yeah ok call 'em table scraps.  I call it a vast improvement in quality of life.

 

Another condo dwelling snob... really, you didn't come across as that for starters?

 

Yes table scraps. Underfunded, understaffed, under skilled clinics, some cheapo infrastructure that crumbles quickly, and nothing on education - oh, apart from a few crappy tablets that quickly broke.

 

Now imagine what could be - if the Shins weren't a greed self serving crime family. Or if a real political party that actually served the people came into being? But not likely.

[Baerboxer]

1 minute ago, LannaGuy said:

Well.. whatever you say Thais were far happier back then, I hear it daily, They were not angels but he was the best PM this country ever had and Thais know it. If I were Prayut I'd have let her slip away into history but oh no he couldn't do that he had to let the famous 'Thai vindictive' streak lash out upon her innocent back.

 

Gawd, trotting that one out.

 

Well lots of Thais I know thought the Shins were totally corrupt, and running the country for their own benefit.

 

And no, I don't think for one moment she's innocent in the slightest. But a great actress who fools many.

[LannaGuy]

Just now, Baerboxer said:

 

Gawd, trotting that one out.

 

Well lots of Thais I know thought the Shins were totally corrupt, and running the country for their own benefit.

 

And no, I don't think for one moment she's innocent in the slightest. But a great actress who fools many.

No trolling dude we are entitled to a little dark humor whatever side we are on right?  I truly believe she has been misjudged and that any ex-PM, if not on corruption charges, should not be held accountable for decisions made whilst in office. God every PM and President on the world would face charges. It's madness!!!

[thaiguzzi]

5 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Another condo dwelling snob... really, you didn't come across as that for starters?

 

Yes table scraps. Underfunded, understaffed, under skilled clinics, some cheapo infrastructure that crumbles quickly, and nothing on education - oh, apart from a few crappy tablets that quickly broke.

 

Now imagine what could be - if the Shins weren't a greed self serving crime family. Or if a real political party that actually served the people came into being? But not likely.

I'll mention that to some of the nurses i've got to know over the years who are very proud of their "underfunded, understaffed, under SKILLED clinics".

 As i mentioned earlier, i ask you, who did anything remotely like that before, and since?

Dems in the last 40 years? don't make me laugh....

[Baerboxer]

Just now, LannaGuy said:

No trolling dude we are entitled to a little dark humor whatever side we are on right?  I truly believe she has been misjudged and that any ex-PM, if not on corruption charges, should not be held accountable for decisions made whilst in office. God every PM and President on the world would face charges. It's madness!!!

 

Fair enough.

 

She certainly wasn't the one in charge or making decisions. I doubt she appointed herself Chair of the rice scheme then decided not to bother herself. I guess it was either for plausible deniability - "it wasn't me, I wasn't there, I know nothing" or she was told to keep away and see and hear nothing.

 

Whatever, she's been handed the dirty stick and this seems to be one of those rare occasions when a hiso might be held accountable, albeit not the real one responsible.

[yellowboat]

9 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Can you list her achievements please?

 

Especially the ones and future plans that were good for the country and would have cemented a great legacy?

Governance.  She governed in a mild and kind way.  The government that governs least governs best.  She let the country run itself prior to the rice debacle.  Foreign governments and business loved her.  The current unelected man at the helm, not so much. 

[Baerboxer]

Just now, thaiguzzi said:

I'll mention that to some of the nurses i've got to know over the years who are very proud of their "underfunded, understaffed, under SKILLED clinics".

 As i mentioned earlier, i ask you, who did anything remotely like that before, and since?

Dems in the last 40 years? don't make me laugh....

 

Really - interesting as every medical professional I know says it was little but nowhere near enough. Whilst education was screwed up with too many taking turns at the trough and all those cabinet reshuffles. (7 in less than 3 years!).

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed. 

[yellowboat]

Just now, Baerboxer said:

 

Well, Obama was certainly impressed by something!

 

Loved her - please. Be real. 

 

She rarely attended parliament, never debated, traveled outside the country than any other leader. When she did comment she was quickly overruled by her brother.

 

She never governed anything.

That is the point.  She let the country run itself and it was great until she made two crucial errors.  Last thing you want is a government that does things other than provide basic serves like impartial courts.  Even if she was a buffoon,  she was far better for Thailand than what has taken her place.   While she was in office, Thailand was a hopeful, fun place.  Now it is becoming dull and uncertain. 

[thaiguzzi]

10 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Really - interesting as every medical professional I know says it was little but nowhere near enough. Whilst education was screwed up with too many taking turns at the trough and all those cabinet reshuffles. (7 in less than 3 years!).

You talking city hospitals.

I'm talking tambon clinics.

There were virtually none pre 2002.

Ditto tarmac interconnecting village roads.

Ditto dirt sois in villages.

Ditto lack of water in dry seasons.

You've not answered the question.

Why did it take Mr. T to do all the above.

Why was this not done with earlier regimes/governments?

Why did'nt the Dems come up with some of these ideas?

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, thaiguzzi said:

 With all the shit that has gone on in the last 3 years, i can guarantee you her land slide victory would be even bigger than anything before up here in the NW and NE.

Nobody up here forgets...

The south may have some surprises. The rubber farmers that supported the fake monk have been betrayed. The junta is annoying the south with his Krabi coal project and not much money is being pump into the south economy. The rubber city in Sadao is more like another Soi Cowboy. Ahbisit has not even visited the south and Prayut is scared stiff to visit the Deep South. I hope they turn on the Dem and vote some other parties. The Dem have failed them repeatedly.

[LannaGuy]

32 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Fair enough.

 

She certainly wasn't the one in charge or making decisions. I doubt she appointed herself Chair of the rice scheme then decided not to bother herself. I guess it was either for plausible deniability - "it wasn't me, I wasn't there, I know nothing" or she was told to keep away and see and hear nothing.

 

Whatever, she's been handed the dirty stick and this seems to be one of those rare occasions when a hiso might be held accountable, albeit not the real one responsible.

The problem is I see this differently. My problem is actually nothing to do with Yingluck it's to do with the principle of not hounding elected people when they leave office, unless it's corruption and if that's true ARREST HER, and they fear the same treatment themselves which is why they grant themselves amnesty.

 

It is THIS that I abhor not the fact that she did not apply as much governance that she should have she, PERSONALLY, did not make one satang out of the rice scheme. The rice scheme, by the way, which is in one form or another in every country (and in Thailand too) in the world. What did she do wrong?

 

It's a big 'set-up burger' for political reasons not about that damn rice scheme. People are beginning to see it and she is turning into a heroine.

[LazarusRizing]

2 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

I have no problem with her being in court.

 

I have no problem with her putting forward a defense to the charges, and robustly defending them. But so far she and her team haven't - not one, zilch.

 

There tactic, as always, is delay, challenge process, challenge anything no matter how irrelevant. Could that possibly be because there is no defense? That she was negligent? Whether that was because she was ordered to be, or because some genius thought it would lead to plausible deniability is irrelevant. 

 

What is is with some Westerners who want to insist that turning a trial into showboat and claiming everything is politically motivated is an acceptable defense for everything?

Do you have access or links to the court transcripts in English. If so could you put a link here so we can read it. I would like to know some information about Yinglucks defence and it seems you know what went on in the court as you state that she  and her didn't even try to put up a defence. I am really trying to find more information about all events happening in Thailand so your inside information that has enabled you to post about Yinglucks defence would be most appreciated.

[Ricardo]

4 hours ago, YetAnother said:

love the habit of those assuming power to immediately grant themselves immunity; then they change the laws to suit themselves

"then they change the laws to suit themselves"

 

For example, to get one's sister to add one's name to an amnesty-bill ?

 

Or to change the law on foreign-ownership of telecoms-companies, a couple-of-days before selling one to Singapore ?

[Eric Loh]

25 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

"then they change the laws to suit themselves"

 

For example, to get one's sister to add one's name to an amnesty-bill ?

 

Or to change the law on foreign-ownership of telecoms-companies, a couple-of-days before selling one to Singapore ?

Still 49% foreign ownership much in line with current foreign investment law. Control still with the 51% Thai owners. 

 

Amnesty bill was just that. Only a bill. You can add just about any one and still need to go through the law-making process which didn't happen. 

[ballpoint]

3 hours ago, thaiguzzi said:

You talking city hospitals.

I'm talking tambon clinics.

There were virtually none pre 2002.

Ditto tarmac interconnecting village roads.

Ditto dirt sois in villages.

Ditto lack of water in dry seasons.

You've not answered the question.

Why did it take Mr. T to do all the above.

Why was this not done with earlier regimes/governments?

Why did'nt the Dems come up with some of these ideas?

When those who supposedly have access to the facts can get things so wrong it's no wonder that those with less access to reliable information are so vulnerable to the red propaganda.

 

"Primary care has been central to Thai healthcare reform for several decades. From the 1970s onwards the Ministry of Public Health channeled resources to build a strong ‘district health care’ system".

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0174055

 

"In our discussions (in 1978) we found it locally agreed that if real improvements in advice and guidance were to be achieved... ... it would best be obtained by an expansion of the mor tambons' clinic (the district health service).

That was in fact what happened. By our visit in 1988, a Village Health Service Centre had been functioning in the village itself for more than a year..."

https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=8776940039

 

So, contrary to that stated above, the tambon clinics were first established in the 1970's and had a major expansion in the 1980's.  And:

 

"In 2009, in an attempt to rectify widely acknowledged weaknesses in local services, these community facilities were reorganized to form sub-district (or Tambon) health promotion hospitals (THPHs), based on the existing health centre facilities".

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0174055

 

Now, who was in charge in 2009?

 

I would add that both colours are just two sides of the same coin.  Thaksin, with his links to the old rural strongmen, ala Banharn, Narong and (initially) Newin, as well as his alliance with some of the darkest figures in modern Thai history:- Chavalit, Pallop Pinmalee, Samak, Seh Daeng et al, and the current bunch who have taken over from the afore mentioned old guard, who, while not yet reaching the excesses of that mob, worryingly seem to be heading in that direction.  It is downright hypocritical to bring up the deaths on Abhisit's watch in 2010 without also acknowledging that the greatest number of civilians killed by the military and police in recent times has happened during Thaksin's, and his current allies (Black May 1992), watches.  Trying to paint one or the other as anything other than a power lusting group locked in a struggle for control of the country's coffers is as ridiculous as trying to argue that a massive heart attack is better than cancer. Until the rural poor can be educated beyond the type of brainwashing illustrated in the post I am replying to, there is little chance of real democracy taking hold in the country.  And I am not just referring to the Issan poor in the grip of the reds, the Southern poor are just as firmly in the grip of the democrats.  The Issan poor have the greater numbers though, so whoever controls them wins.  Why anyone claiming to be pro-democracy would be pushing for any party that controls a large group of people through a mixture of fear, propaganda and bribery is beyond me.

 

 

 

[wakeupplease]

6 hours ago, LannaGuy said:

She has been amazing. Stoic, calm and truthful and Thais know it and history will look back and say "kudos" in kinder and better times.

 

 But NOW is the time of dark juntas, power and maneuvering. We will think no less of you if you leave. 

 

I second that and maybe now is the time to move as with the right people behind her in the real world a lot more could be achieved and a lot quicker. The EU is 100% behind her and do not officially recognize those who claim to be in control as its a shambles as it is and becoming more lawless every day.

 

YL and co cannot win fair treatment with such a corrupt set of people pursuing them as they are and have been for the last 5 years. Take a rest girl and sit back and watch this rabble start to fall apart when they have not got you in their grasp.

 

So easy to get a few people to start shouting the word corruption when they themselves are given sweeteners, is that what happens when you get a elite visa I wonder?R?

 

YL in this case the grass is greener on the other-side and there are many who will help that is for sure.

[CUNJU]

11 hours ago, colinneil said:

Yingluck, i wish you well in your attempt, but as you know not even the courts here observe the law.

The law here is what is dictated by those in power at the time.

Yes and she abused her power while she had it!

 

[Ricardo]

2 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

Still 49% foreign ownership much in line with current foreign investment law. Control still with the 51% Thai owners. 

" On 23 January 2006, the Thai Telecommunication Act (2006) became effective, raising the limit on foreign holdings in telecom companies to 49 percent. The act replaced the Telecom Business Law, which took effect in November 2001, that put the foreign investment cap at 25 percent. "

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale_of_Shin_Corporation_to_Temasek_Holdings

 

After all there wouldn't have been much point in raising the permitted-percentage, after the sale had gone through, would there ?

 

 

2 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

 

Amnesty bill was just that. Only a bill. You can add just about any one and still need to go through the law-making process which didn't happen. 

"which didn't happen"

 

True, but I think you perhaps forget why it didn't happen,  the bill which the lower house had already passed led to major street-protests, following which  ...

 

" Thailand's Senate has rejected a controversial amnesty bill that could have led to the return of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. " 

 

and  "The lower house backed the bill, despite an opposition boycott. But as protests gathered strength, the governing party withdrew its support from the bill and all 141 senators present voted against it.  "This house rejects this bill for consideration," said Deputy Senate Speaker Surachai Lengboonlertchai."

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-24903958

 

So there was a determined attempt to pass the bill, after Thaksin's name had been added, and this eventually led PM-Yingluck to call an election, with the results we're all familiar with.

[Squeegee]

8 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

555! Yep, spot on Rob.

 

I know you were here then too. Remember that was also a PTP trait - simply make it up as you go along and deny reality!

 

Only now, the birds are coming home to roost!!

Barmy double-speakery.

[cyberfarang]

Think about what she did. Yingluck nearly bankrupted and brought down the country with her rice scheme. Then she tried to amend the law so as her brother could return to Thailand.

 

She create chaos and hope they throw the book at this woman.

[LannaGuy]

6 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

Think about what she did. Yingluck nearly bankrupted and brought down the country with her rice scheme. Then she tried to amend the law so as her brother could return to Thailand.

 

She create chaos and hope they throw the book at this woman.

Oh how nice to re-define fiction as fact. 'nearly bankrupted' and 'brought down the country'?  such fantasy!  what have you been imbibing tonight?  amend the law?  of course your Junta would NEVER do that!!!  they would NEVER give themselves amnesty would they?... oh wait.... 

 

She is the heroine of Thailand and they will build statues in her honor once the Junta dinosaurs have died out. The only book they will throw at her is the book of history which is on her side. Just give it time.

[Chris Lawrence]

15 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

I have no problem with her being in court.

 

I have no problem with her putting forward a defense to the charges, and robustly defending them. But so far she and her team haven't - not one, zilch.

 

There tactic, as always, is delay, challenge process, challenge anything no matter how irrelevant. Could that possibly be because there is no defense? That she was negligent? Whether that was because she was ordered to be, or because some genius thought it would lead to plausible deniability is irrelevant. 

 

What is is with some Westerners who want to insist that turning a trial into showboat and claiming everything is politically motivated is an acceptable defense for everything?

Absolute diatribe or full of fantasy.

 

Unless you attended the court room, you would not know what was said or how the battle was fought in court.

 

Bare, your feelings are not facts.

[Chris Lawrence]

7 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

Think about what she did. Yingluck nearly bankrupted and brought down the country with her rice scheme. Then she tried to amend the law so as her brother could return to Thailand.

 

She create chaos and hope they throw the book at this woman.

So, do you know where the money is coming from to fund the proposed Chinese/Thai rail line? And other projects. From the rice stored?

 

What's the total expenditure for the military for the last three years.

 

What social initiative's have been put forward by the junta alliance; the money going to poor Thais, that will get them what was it 600 baht for Bangkok buses and 1000 baht for train fares? Or the 35 baht meal?

 

The junta is on track to blowing out a budget that know one can see. They won't be accountable for income or expenditure. Very worrying for a international lender/hedge fund that will be looking to fund the proposed projects. The effect it will have is to add % points on the monies borrowed. The other factor that will increase costs is what as seen as the instability created by the actions of the junta taking on Yingluk as it creates uncertainty. There are plenty of rice schemes in this junta yet.

[jayboy]

 
Another condo dwelling snob... really, you didn't come across as that for starters?
 
Yes table scraps. Underfunded, understaffed, under skilled clinics, some cheapo infrastructure that crumbles quickly, and nothing on education - oh, apart from a few crappy tablets that quickly broke.
 
Now imagine what could be - if the Shins weren't a greed self serving crime family. Or if a real political party that actually served the people came into being? But not likely.

With respect your contributions to this discussion have been deranged - recycling the lies and half truths that don't stand up to serious scrutiny.What you seem to lack is the slightest understanding of economics or historical forces.You appear clueless as to why the Thai people reject the old order.If you showed even a glimmer of comprehension there might be two sides to the story, you might be taken seriously.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Ricardo]

9 hours ago, LannaGuy said:

 

She is the heroine of Thailand and they will build statues in her honor once the Junta dinosaurs have died out. The only book they will throw at her is the book of history which is on her side. Just give it time.

 

I agree with you that history will probably be kinder to Yingluck, if not because of her general innocence or pulchritude, but because when faced with a major reaction from the public to her brother's name having been added to the amnesty-bill, she backed-down and chose to call an election sooner than she actually had to. 

 

That took some courage, although she probably expected (or was advised) that she would win again.

 

In much the same way as Abhisit didn't wait until the bitter end (which would have been December-2011), to call an election in July-2011, but called it before the 4-year term was up, and knowing that he might well lose.

 

The political dinosaurs (of all colours) are slowly dying out, although there are still several I'd like to see gone, and progress is more likely to come after their departure, as you rightly say  "just give it time".