New house breaker questions

[Andrew Dwyer]

Have moved into a new build house yesterday and some questions have arisen due another thread I started on a different topic.

 

Anyway, here is a photo of my breaker box and some other info that might be useful

 

 

Air cons have their own breaker as does the water pump.

I have no water heater or bath/jacuzzi etc.

There are no outlets in any of the bathrooms or near the kitchen sink or even outside.

 

My outlet sockets are grounded as is the water pump.

 

My electric meter and power was installed about a week ago, the house was built roughly 12 months ago and stood vacant until now.

 

My question is:

 

There seems to be a new law which states that new house builds need a RCBO or RCD breaker. ( this came from a post on TV which was brought to my attention by Crossy)

 

Do I need to do anything, I.e. Get a sparky in to fit a different breaker or contact PEA for them to assess etc.

 

Please be gentle !! I am not from an electrical background .

 

 

[wayned]

You need to install a front end RCBO before the main circuit breaker or replace the MCB with an RCBO if you can find one to fit.  It looks like you still have some room in the box since there are still two spare knockouts on the right.

 

Keep PEA out of it!!!

[wayned]

If you have time take the cover off of the box and take and post some pictures so we can see how it's wired - grounds, earths, MEN connnction, etc.!

[Crossy]

Yes ^^^.

 

Also have a look at this thread: (I see our OP is already aware but still worth mentioning)

 

Since it's a new build it should meet the latest requirements.

[wayned]

34 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Since it's a new build it should meet the latest requirements.

I agree with the above, but it seems that since it was built 12 months ago and already has power connected, a PEA inspection shouldn't be required and, if not, I wouldn't get them involved!

[Crossy]

Agreed @wayned I wasn't advocating involving PEA. Unless our OP is paying more than about 4 Baht a unit (if directly billed) and still has a construction supply.

 

 

[wayned]

18 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Agreed @wayned I wasn't advocating involving PEA. Unless our OP is paying more than about 4 Baht a unit (if directly billed) and still has a construction supply.

 

 

Good point!

[Andrew Dwyer]

If you have time take the cover off of the box and take and post some pictures so we can see how it's wired - grounds, earths, MEN connnction, etc.!

Wayne, as requested:

[Crossy]

OK

 

I see:-

• A DIN mount box (good)
• Two unused breakers at the right hand end (so there's room to install an RCD)
• No RCD / RCBO
• No MEN link
• No earths on the earth bar (do you have 3-pin outlets?)
• A couple of bits of black being used to link the neutral bar to the incoming breaker.
• A broken MCB (not good)

This was a professional install? Shoot the sparks!

 

 

[wayned]

3 minutes ago, Crossy said:

OK

 

I see:-

• A DIN mount box (good)
• Two unused breakers at the right hand end (so there's room to install an RCD)
• No RCD / RCBO
• No MEN link
• No earths on the earth bar (do you have 3-pin outlets?)
• A couple of bits of black being used to link the neutral bar to the incoming breaker.

This was a professional install? Shoot the sparks!

 

 

Beat me to it!  If he could, I'd start over!

[Crossy]

@wayned 555 it's not really that bad as Thai electrics go, but for a recent install it is.

 

As a matter of urgency:-

• Replace those two bits of (too small) black with a piece of 10mm² (buy a couple of meters from HomePro or the like).
• Whilst in HomePro buy a DIN mount RCD (63A/30mA).
• If you have 3-pin outlets pop one off, let's have a look how they're wired.

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

[mention=77463]wayned[/mention] 555 it's not really that bad as Thai electrics go, but for a recent install it is.

 

As a matter of urgency:-

• Replace those two bits of (too small) black with a piece of 10mm² (buy a couple of meters from HomePro or the like).
• Whilst in HomePro buy a DIN mount RCD (63A/30mA).
• If you have 3-pin outlets pop one off, let's have a look how they're wired.

 

Yes, all 3 pin outlets

 

 

[Crossy]

Hmmm, so where do those green wires go one wonders?

 

Do you have a multimeter?

 

[wayned]

Is there an earth rod  pounded in the ground somewhere outside?  Could be that the earth connection goes to a junction box and the earths are radials from there. 

 

I did something similar to my house in Bangkok which only had non earthed two pin plugs installed.  I put three pin plugs where I thought that they were needed and ran earths from a rod that I installed to the plugs but didn't go back to the CU which was upstairs.

[bankruatsteve]

The OP says separate circuits to the AC's (2?) and water pump.  Leaves one circuit for all outlets and lights?  Where do these guys come from, I wonder.

[Pdaz]

5 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

The OP says separate circuits to the AC's (2?) and water pump.  Leaves one circuit for all outlets and lights?  Where do these guys come from, I wonder.

Makes fault finding easy 

[Andrew Dwyer]

The OP says separate circuits to the AC's (2?) and water pump.  Leaves one circuit for all outlets and lights?  Where do these guys come from, I wonder.

The 2 AC's were fitted recently, the feed comes from under the roof .They drilled a hole up into the space under the roof, guy disappeared through the hatch and connected ( to what I don't know ).

The water pump, fitted a couple of days ago, gets its feed from a 3 pin outlet in bedroom ( via the wall ) , breaker for pump is outside next to pump.

Sorry, no photo but am not there right now.

[Andrew Dwyer]

Hmmm, so where do those green wires go one wonders?
 
Do you have a multimeter?
 

Nope [emoji107]

[Andrew Dwyer]

Is there an earth rod  pounded in the ground somewhere outside?  Could be that the earth connection goes to a junction box and the earths are radials from there. 
 
I did something similar to my house in Bangkok which only had non earthed two pin plugs installed.  I put three pin plugs where I thought that they were needed and ran earths from a rod that I installed to the plugs but didn't go back to the CU which was upstairs.

Nothing obvious that I've seen, I'm not at home right now but will take a look when I get back.

[wayned]

12 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Nope

Buy a cheap one on your way home..  Small analog one's about 400 baht, a good investment!

[wayned]

If you can't find a meter locally, here's a DVM available from Lazada which is shipped from Thailand, not China, so if you order it today you'll have it next Tuesday or Wednesday.  Cost 599 baht but cheaper one's are available. http://www.lazada.co.th/mondpalast-xl830l-digital-3-12-lcdvoltmeter-ammeter-ohmmeter-multimeter-4476625.html?spm=a2o4l.search.0.0.yi7xWZ&ff=1

 

Could also be that the earths are "daisy chained to/from each outlet and the single green wire in the CU is the end and there is just no earth rod installed and connected to the ground bar.  Easy to find with a meter.

[BEVUP]

5 minutes ago, wayned said:

If you can't find a meter locally, here's a DVM available from Lazada which is shipped from Thailand, not China, so if you order it today you'll have it next Tuesday or Wednesday.  Cost 599 baht but cheaper one's are available. http://www.lazada.co.th/mondpalast-xl830l-digital-3-12-lcdvoltmeter-ammeter-ohmmeter-multimeter-4476625.html?spm=a2o4l.search.0.0.yi7xWZ&ff=1

 

Could also be that the earths are "daisy chained to/from each outlet and the single green wire in the CU is the end and there is just no earth rod installed and connected to the ground bar.  Easy to find with a meter.

I would agree about the Earth daisy

* Air cons are no doubt twisted into the wiring in the roof

* & maybe everything else twisted randomly in the roof ( I have it all it's like a spider web in mine - lights even running of outlets ), you can tell when you turn a fluro on whilst watching tv

* The pump is just a direct feed from behind an outlet hence the breaker for the pump so you can turn power off to the pump

[Andrew Dwyer]

Crossy and Wayne:
Didn't get chance to buy those bits ( 10mm2 wire, RCD breaker and multimeter) today as had to go back to the apartment to sign off and the rain didn't help either !!

Will hopefully tomorrow get the multimeter ( Homepro should have one ?) and with a lot of guidance from yourselves I will investigate the earth issue.

[RichCor]

 

23 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Air cons have their own breaker as does the water pump.

 

10 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

The 2 AC's were fitted recently, the feed comes from under the roof .They drilled a hole up into the space under the roof, guy disappeared through the hatch and connected ( to what I don't know ).

The water pump, fitted a couple of days ago, gets its feed from a 3 pin outlet in bedroom ( via the wall ) , breaker for pump is outside next to pump.

Sorry, no photo but am not there right now.

 

Can you clarify these two posts?

Originally I assumed you meant the ACs and Water Pump had dedicated breakers in the CU, but the second post seems to state otherwise.

 

Can you give a description of what is run off each CU breaker.

 

Also, do you have direct experience with handling live 220~240v AC, or will you be relying on getting a local sparks in to do any necessary changeover.

[Andrew Dwyer]

 
 
Can you clarify these two posts?
Originally I assumed you meant the ACs and Water Pump had dedicated breakers in the CU, but the second post seems to state otherwise.
 
Can you give a description of what is run off each CU breaker.
 
Also, do you have direct experience with handling live 220~240v AC, or will you be relying on getting a local sparks in to do any necessary changeover.

Yeah sorry if I made it confusing, I did say at the start I have no electrical background and only started this thread because I hear of the horror stories and wanted to run some things by the more electrical minded folks of TV.
I will be relying on local sparky for any electrical work and as I'm new to the area will have to ask around the neighbourhood.

Each AC and the water pump has a dedicated breaker next to each unit, the water pump is wired into the outlet circuit, the feed for the AC's comes from up above so not sure if it's lighting or outlet.

[RichCor]

OK. thanks.

 

Would still be nice to know what's physically running off of each CU breaker.  So Amp load vs breaker Amp rating.

 

...and find out how/where all the Earth Grounds are terminated, and test them.  

It's usually 'best' to have the Earth Grounds running directly back to the CU and have a MEN-link (Earth Neutral bridged link) in place when possible so any potential earth-fault can be handled directly (rather than assume a 2nd-location ground will always be functional).   

 

Also, it might be the forum suggests replacing the CU with one holding more breakers so you can run dedicated circuits and wiring to the 2 ACs and Water Pump -- in addition to what's already wired in the CU.  If that's the case then you can purchase a CU that includes a RCD.

[BEVUP]

6 minutes ago, RichCor said:

OK. thanks.

 

Would still be nice to know what's physically running off of each CU breaker.  So Amp load vs breaker Amp rating.

 

...and find out how/where all the Earth Grounds are terminated, and test them.  

It's usually 'best' to have the Earth Grounds running directly back to the CU and have a MEN-link (Earth Neutral bridged link) in place when possible so any potential earth-fault can be handled directly (rather than assume a 2nd-location ground will always be functional).   

 

Also, it might be the forum suggests replacing the CU with one holding more breakers so you can run dedicated circuits and wiring to the 2 ACs and Water Pump -- in addition to what's already wired in the CU.  If that's the case then you can purchase a CU that includes a RCD.

I would keep the mains on & then just leave 1 CU on & run around the house checking every switch (lights & power ) with a pen & paper to record so you know exactly what is on each circuit 

PS: plus aircons & pump

[Andrew Dwyer]

OK. thanks.
 
Would still be nice to know what's physically running off of each CU breaker.  So Amp load vs breaker Amp rating.
 
...and find out how/where all the Earth Grounds are terminated, and test them.  
It's usually 'best' to have the Earth Grounds running directly back to the CU and have a MEN-link (Earth Neutral bridged link) in place when possible so any potential earth-fault can be handled directly (rather than assume a 2nd-location ground will always be functional).   
 
Also, it might be the forum suggests replacing the CU with one holding more breakers so you can run dedicated circuits and wiring to the 2 ACs and Water Pump -- in addition to what's already wired in the CU.  If that's the case then you can purchase a CU that includes a RCD.

Thanks, most of that goes straight over my head but I am learning some good stuff.

My initial reason for this thread was Crossy brought to my attention some new rules re: new house build and RCBO/RCD etc. Plus wanted to make sure that there was nothing blatantly wrong in the electrical install.

But, with the help of yourself, Crossy and wayned ( among others ) I've already learned some interesting stuff and hopefully I can learn more and make improvements to my house.
I won't physically be doing the work but it's always good to have some sort of understanding what needs to be done and if the work is being done correctly.

[Andrew Dwyer]

I would keep the mains on & then just leave 1 CU on & run around the house checking every switch (lights & power ) with a pen & paper to record so you know exactly what is on each circuit 
PS: plus aircons & pump

Sounds good, at least then I can label each breaker

[wayned]

So what you basically have is A CU with a 63 amp MCB and four circuits that go "somewhere" in the house, two 16 amp and two 20 amp, and two unused 32 amp breakers.  The two air cons  and the water pump have there own switches/breakers, but the power for the water pump comes from an existing electrical socket installation and the power from the air conditioners comes from "somewhere" in the attic! Both the power for the water pump and air contioners must come from one of the existing circuit breakers in the CU.  From your picture it seems that there is  an earth wire in the electrical sockets but only one earth wire in the CU so "where is the earth coming from"?  There is no MEN connection or up front RCBO.

 

I think that the first thing that you do is, as suggested, map out exactly what it connected to each of the four circuit breakers including the air conditioners and water pump.and where the sockets and CU are connected to earth, if they actually are, and go from there.