Wanted Hotel Free Condo Building

[beginner]

Can anyone suggest a Central Pattaya Condominium that does not have a hotel or allow owners to rent out their rooms for short stay visitors?

 

   

Edited August 8, 2017 by Rimmer
Caps in header altered

[newnative]

Good question!  I would love to live in a condo without hotel renters, too!   I await any postings on  condo projects that have tough and effective zero tolerance policies for illegal short-term rentals that are working.  In my experience at the condos I have owned, juristic/management doesn't seem to want to get involved and often the  management and front desk staff are actually assisting the owners doing the illegal rentals--and likely getting some sort of payoff.   One tool condo projects could employ is fingerprint scanners to operate the elevators, access the building, etc.  Each condo unit could only change the fingerprint data once a month--which would help prevent daily or weekly rentals.  But, it seems when this idea is proposed all the owners doing the illegal rentals raise a big stink and nothing gets done.  It's definitely a problem and getting out of control at some of the condos in popular locations. 

[beginner]

Thanks New Native for your reply. 

I guess the lack of response means  that there are no Central Pattaya Condos that are actually strictly managed as residential only.   

The sales and marketing of many new builds actively promoted the idea of buy to rent and the promise of high returns.  The problem is lack of suitable medium/long term renters and the need for developers of largely unsold condo units to raise revenue.  This has led to individual owners using internet booking platforms and tour operators getting ludicrously cheap room rates for otherwise unused condo rooms.

 

TAT has just announced another sales drive in India and no doubt the huge Indian market will provide a growing number of visitors for many years to come. Tours groups of any nationality  do not make good neighbours in residential condo buildings.  After all they are on holiday and want to see and do the maximum possible.  A continuous stream of new arrivals and departures of people in party mood can turn a quiet oasis into an unpleasant noisy place to avoid.

The huge number of built but unsold condos probably means that this trend will continue for many years.  Exisiting owners will just have to live with the situation.  If they bought in a building that suggested a rate of return for rentals then they will naturally support the existing 'illegal' rentals.   Legal and illegal have special Thai meanings rather like the developers claims of 80% sold!

 

Your fingerprint idea is ingenious but This Is Thailand.  How long before it would be circumvented or abandoned.  Money talks.

 

[newnative]

1 hour ago, beginner said:

Thanks New Native for your reply. 

I guess the lack of response means  that there are no Central Pattaya Condos that are actually strictly managed as residential only.   

The sales and marketing of many new builds actively promoted the idea of buy to rent and the promise of high returns.  The problem is lack of suitable medium/long term renters and the need for developers of largely unsold condo units to raise revenue.  This has led to individual owners using internet booking platforms and tour operators getting ludicrously cheap room rates for otherwise unused condo rooms.

 

TAT has just announced another sales drive in India and no doubt the huge Indian market will provide a growing number of visitors for many years to come. Tours groups of any nationality  do not make good neighbours in residential condo buildings.  After all they are on holiday and want to see and do the maximum possible.  A continuous stream of new arrivals and departures of people in party mood can turn a quiet oasis into an unpleasant noisy place to avoid.

The huge number of built but unsold condos probably means that this trend will continue for many years.  Exisiting owners will just have to live with the situation.  If they bought in a building that suggested a rate of return for rentals then they will naturally support the existing 'illegal' rentals.   Legal and illegal have special Thai meanings rather like the developers claims of 80% sold!

 

Your fingerprint idea is ingenious but This Is Thailand.  How long before it would be circumvented or abandoned.  Money talks.

 

All true.  And, unfortunately, the more illegal short-term hotel renters there are in a condo complex, the less desirable the complex is for long-term renters--and owner-residents. 

[NanLaew]

I think a large proportion of those either flipping old units or investing in the newer condominiums in Pattaya are counting on rentals via in-house services, online hotel search engines and airbnb to be able meet their payment commitments to the developer. Unlike the Ritz-Carlton Residences, MahaNakhon, 185 Rajadamri and other prime developments in Bangkok, I doubt that any development in Pattaya will have the exclusivity, cache or the major investment costs that preclude such commercialism. There's no denying that several units in the aforementioned Bangkok edifices are available for extremely high rents thus they won't be aimed at the average Russian or Chinese vacationer unless they are oligarchs or the Chinese derivative that come in on their private planes.

Edited August 9, 2017 by NanLaew

[beginner]

Moderators.

Is it possible to transfer this thread to Real Estate, housing, house and land ownership?

Thankyou.

[Rimmer]

OK Can do,  moved to Real estate housing

[wordchild]

On 09/08/2017 at 10:06 PM, NanLaew said:

I think a large proportion of those either flipping old units or investing in the newer condominiums in Pattaya are counting on rentals via in-house services, online hotel search engines and airbnb to be able meet their payment commitments to the developer. Unlike the Ritz-Carlton Residences, MahaNakhon, 185 Rajadamri and other prime developments in Bangkok, I doubt that any development in Pattaya will have the exclusivity, cache or the major investment costs that preclude such commercialism. There's no denying that several units in the aforementioned Bangkok edifices are available for extremely high rents thus they won't be aimed at the average Russian or Chinese vacationer unless they are oligarchs or the Chinese derivative that come in on their private planes.

Pace properties, the developer of the, Ritz Carlton and MahaNakhon, just had a red flag raised within its latest auditors report. The shares were briefly suspended because of this. It maybe fine and all work out, ( they promise a new equity investor) but, this essentially is a pretty small company which has highish debt and significant future obligations, and there are some legitimate questions to be asked about the future assumptions the company has made. This is pretty much what the audit report has suggested. A word to the wise, exercise caution!

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by wordchild

[AJBangkok]

On 8/8/2017 at 3:02 PM, newnative said:

Good question!  I would love to live in a condo without hotel renters, too!   I await any postings on  condo projects that have tough and effective zero tolerance policies for illegal short-term rentals that are working.  In my experience at the condos I have owned, juristic/management doesn't seem to want to get involved and often the  management and front desk staff are actually assisting the owners doing the illegal rentals--and likely getting some sort of payoff.   One tool condo projects could employ is fingerprint scanners to operate the elevators, access the building, etc.  Each condo unit could only change the fingerprint data once a month--which would help prevent daily or weekly rentals.  But, it seems when this idea is proposed all the owners doing the illegal rentals raise a big stink and nothing gets done.  It's definitely a problem and getting out of control at some of the condos in popular locations. 

"Illegal short term rentals"  what about legal short term rentals. A lot of people think airbnb rentals of a condo are illegal in Thailand but unless the condominium has a specific rule approved by over 50% of the owners  banning short term rentals they are not. 

 

People generally say then hey it's illegal under the hotel act but actually unless the landlord owns 4 or more units in the condominium it cannot and does not fall under the hotel act.

 

There are a lot of armchair lawyers out there who read something on the internet and take it as the truth but as someone who is currently engaging with my condominium over this very issue the law is relatively clear that it's not illegal unless you can get 50% of the owners to agree to Ban short term rentals and include it in the condo rule book or the landlord doing the rentals owns 4 or more units in the condominium which makes it fall under the hotel act. Those are the 2 major "laws" and you can try different interpretations of other parts of the condo act ( and other acts) but you won't get very far unless the actual short term renters are carrying out some illegal activities in the rooms after they rent them.

 

You're reading this on the internet so you shouldn't believe me either. If you really want to know the law ( and your rights ) then believe nothing you read on the internet and go ask a good real estate or commercial lawyer. We did.

 

[trogers]

No need to debate. A firm JPM and juristic committee would just prohibit and any owners who insist on doing short time rentals are free to engage lawyers and go to court.. 

[KittenKong]

48 minutes ago, AJBangkok said:

"Illegal short term rentals"  what about legal short term rentals. A lot of people think airbnb rentals of a condo are illegal in Thailand but unless the condominium has a specific rule approved by over 50% of the owners  banning short term rentals they are not. 

 

People generally say then hey it's illegal under the hotel act but actually unless the landlord owns 4 or more units in the condominium it cannot and does not fall under the hotel act.

 

Anyone renting residential rooms for periods of less than 30 days falls under the hotel act. If the number of rooms is small then they only need to register rather than be licensed. But the requirement is still there.

 

If a co-owner needs to be registered to do his rentals then clearly he is engaged in a business. Condos are residential buildings, not commercial ones, and the condo act supports this. Internal building regs normally also prohibit any commercial activity in parts of the building other than those dedicated to commerce (commonly the ground floor or similar area).

 

So I would say that short-term rentals are forbidden in several ways. Of course, being Thailand, the rules are rarely applied but one can always hope that progressively they will be applied more and more.

[newnative]

7 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

Anyone renting residential rooms for periods of less than 30 days falls under the hotel act. If the number of rooms is small then they only need to register rather than be licensed. But the requirement is still there.

 

If a co-owner needs to be registered to do his rentals then clearly he is engaged in a business. Condos are residential buildings, not commercial ones, and the condo act supports this. Internal building regs normally also prohibit any commercial activity in parts of the building other than those dedicated to commerce (commonly the ground floor or similar area).

 

So I would say that short-term rentals are forbidden in several ways. Of course, being Thailand, the rules are rarely applied but one can always hope that progressively they will be applied more and more.

Totally agree.

[trogers]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

 

Anyone renting residential rooms for periods of less than 30 days falls under the hotel act. If the number of rooms is small then they only need to register rather than be licensed. But the requirement is still there.

 

If a co-owner needs to be registered to do his rentals then clearly he is engaged in a business. Condos are residential buildings, not commercial ones, and the condo act supports this. Internal building regs normally also prohibit any commercial activity in parts of the building other than those dedicated to commerce (commonly the ground floor or similar area).

 

So I would say that short-term rentals are forbidden in several ways. Of course, being Thailand, the rules are rarely applied but one can always hope that progressively they will be applied more and more.

That's why I recommend owners of short term rentals be encouraged to bare all their business deals and losses from the prohibition in court...

[beginner]

Thank you for the various replies.

No one has yet suggested a building free of short stay renters.  Maybe its unrealistic to hope to find one in a holiday resort like Pattaya.

The legal/illegal discussion is interesting but my belief is that it is never wise to go to court in Thailand.  The process can literally go on for years, the costs can be high, the frustration immense.You can have years of sleepless nights 'guaranteed'.    lol. 

Even if a farang gets a judgement in their favour that is only the start of the battle. A judgement is just a piece of paper; actually getting something done about it may be even more difficult.

I know of two cases here in Pattaya where the court made awards but neither has ever collected. The cost of trying to enforce the orders means that its just not viable.

Hence my original question. Is there a condo building in Central Pattaya that does not have a hotel and doesn't allow short term renters?

I hoped one of the many property agents could suggest somewhere.

It looks like the answer is NO !

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, beginner said:

Hence my original question. Is there a condo building in Central Pattaya that does not have a hotel and doesn't allow short term renters?

 

There are many condo buildings that dont have a hotel. In fact those with a hotel are quite rare.

 

I dont think there are any buildings in Central Pattaya that dont have short-term tenants though, legal or not, hotel or not.

 

You would need to go to Naklua/Wong Amat/Pratumnak/Jomtien to find buildings that make an effort to restrict or prevent short-term tenants. I think this is understandable but I wish that the Thai authorities would be more strict about zoning generally.

 

[newnative]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

 

There are many condo buildings that dont have a hotel. In fact those with a hotel are quite rare.

 

I dont think there are any buildings in Central Pattaya that dont have short-term tenants though, legal or not, hotel or not.

 

You would need to go to Naklua/Wong Amat/Pratumnak/Jomtien to find buildings that make an effort to restrict or prevent short-term tenants. I think this is understandable but I wish that the Thai authorities would be more strict about zoning generally.

 

I agree.  The 3 new high-rise condos that recently opened in south and central Pattaya are in great locations, brand new, packed with nice amenities, and, thus, have attracted illegal short-term renters.  I think to escape the short-term renters you would need to look for an older condo project with fewer investors in the areas KittenKong mentioned.  You might also partially escape the illegal short-term renters by going upscale if you can afford it and looking for a project that has few or no small condos in the 35sqm range.  For example, Northshore vs. The Base.

[beginner]

Northshore does appear to have few, if any,  short term rentals.....their rules require a minimum of 6 month leases.   Security there is very tight.  It would be very difficult to get yourself or a vehicle into the building uninvited and the lift require key cards that restrict which floors you are entitled to visit. That is rather like your suggestion in post 2.

The problem for me is the price. This is what Hipflat says:  of 127 units

Northshore for sale: 71 units available from ฿6,660,000 to ฿200,000,000.
Northshore for rent: 93 units available from ฿30,000 to ฿120,000 per month (prices are for 1 year rental term).

They were originally sold at premium prices and are now slowly correcting down to the actual resale market price. This process could go on for many years as developers always push the pricing envelope by incorporating the latest popular design features.  The excellent seafront location is counteracted by the noisy beer garden and night market next door at the failed so far, Bay shopping mall.