Do these surge protectors work?

[tomas557]

 

 

I currently have the 20Ka~40Ka version installed on  2 circuits that are each secured by a 64A breaker.

 

One of them has the red window so needs replacement.

 

Is the one with the 30Ka spec better than a 20Ka.

 

Any idea what the going price is in electrical shop in Thailand, as the ones on Ebay are 167 Baht, but if can buy around that price here can't be bothered to order online.

[r136dg]

Back when I was looking I ran with this one ordered through Alibaba @ about $35. I followed a suggestion from a very intelligent member here & glad I did so. I don't recall seeing much for SPD's on the chain store shelves at the time.

Can't see it in the pic but both live & neutral go to ground upon a significant surge.

[tomas557]

The same seller has them also at 285 Baht, would that be a better option, and can this be used in my installation without major changes?

 

 

But my main question is actually if these are effective, because when I do a Google for house surge protector, I get always directed to those 4-5000 Baht thingy's that look like the one below. 

 

 

[aussie11950]

Just a more sophisticated version.
I would go for the red one.
It's got good specs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Crossy]

We have the red ones too, although I got ours from a retailer in Shanghai, I got some spare cartridges too of which I've used one.

 

As to whether they work, it's very difficult to tell as you can't see a surge only its effects. They do need a good solid ground.

 

We are dosed to the eyeballs with MOVs on all our technology but that didn't save our Samsung washing machine (see my thread on the subject), but, touch-wood, we've not lost anything else.

 

IMPORTANT NOTE If you are buying online ensure you get the correct voltage rating, the US spec. units will fizz nicely when connected to the Thai 220V mains.

[tomas557]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

We have the red ones too, although I got ours from a retailer in Shanghai, I got some spare cartridges too of which I've used one.

 

As to whether they work, it's very difficult to tell as you can't see a surge only its effects. They do need a good solid ground.

 

We are dosed to the eyeballs with MOVs on all our technology but that didn't save our Samsung washing machine (see my thread on the subject), but, touch-wood, we've not lost anything else.

 

IMPORTANT NOTE If you are buying online ensure you get the correct voltage rating, the US spec. units will fizz nicely when connected to the Thai 220V mains.

Below are the specs of the surge protector, so I guess they are correct for Thailand.

 

In the first circuit I can fit a P+N version, but in the second circuit I wil have to rearrange a breaker to the lower level of the box to make space.

 

Do the P+N have any advantage, and can I actually fit them in my system, since all my breakers are P only.

 

I just opened the box cover, and my protector gets the live from the rail, and has written N/L on it, so are  these suitable for me?

 

All my breakers get their live at the top, and are at the bottom interconnected by a rail, from which the surge protector gets its live

 

Second question, since the first one has protector gone faulty, should I replace both at the same time?

 

And third question, is this price comparable to what I can get them for in Thailand, as I hate to go ask in the electrical shop and walk out when they are 4 times that price?

 

[Crossy]

OK those should do the trick.

 

To check if you need P or P+N we need to know if your supply is TT (no link N-E) or TN-C-S (N-E linked).

 

If you're TT then you should use the P+N type.

 

Easiest way is for you to pop the lid off your distribution box and post a photo.

[tomas557]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

OK those should do the trick.

 

To check if you need P or P+N we need to know if your supply is TT (no link N-E) or TN-C-S (N-E linked).

 

If you're TT then you should use the P+N type.

 

Easiest way is for you to pop the lid off your distribution box and post a photo.

 Second circuit has another box with few breakers below that is on the same RCD, so I presume I can move the surge protector to that box

[Crossy]

OK, I assume the second picture is the incoming supply. I see no N-E link so you are TT and should use a P+N unit.

 

The arrestor should go as close as possible to the incoming supply in order to be fully effective and have as short as possible cable to the ground rod.

 

It also seems that the grey incoming supply is connected as live/phase. Have you verified the supply polarity is really that way round? Thai convention is that black is phase and grey neutral.

[tomas557]

24 minutes ago, Crossy said:

OK, I assume the second picture is the incoming supply. I see no N-E link so you are TT and should use a P+N unit.

 

The arrestor should go as close as possible to the incoming supply in order to be fully effective and have as short as possible cable to the ground rod.

 

It also seems that the grey incoming supply is connected as live/phase. Have you verified the supply polarity is really that way round? Thai convention is that black is phase and grey neutral.

Second picture is the incoming supply, and RCD is connected to the  RCD in the first box which is mounted on top of the second one, and grey is live and black neutral.

Reason probably is that my installation was done by a foreigner and he used red for live and black for neutral throughout the system.

 

I have taken a new picture of the top box, and you will see that currently a P only version is installed, and the rail has one more connection.

 

I presume that if I install a P+N version, I'll cut off that extra connection from the rail, and connect the N connector straight to where all the black wires are connected in my box.

 

Is that correct?

 

Does it make sense for the price to order them online, since they are available here, because the ones currently installed were bought from the Thai electrical supplier?

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by tomas557

[Crossy]

Yes, you could cut down the bus-bar and install a P+N there.

 

BUT This is important;-

27 minutes ago, Crossy said:

The arrestor should go as close as possible to the incoming supply in order to be fully effective and have as short as possible cable to the ground rod.

To get to your current arrestor the surge has to travel down the bus-bar past all your breakers and a bit of it will head off towards your delicate kit. Possibly enough energy to fry something before the arrestor triggers.

 

How have you verified your incoming polarity?

 

Is that incoming device an RCBO? If it's a simple RCD then you have NO overcurrent protection on your incoming supply. Not sure? Please post a photo.

[tomas557]

15 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Yes, you could cut down the bus-bar and install a P+N there.

 

BUT This is important;-

To get to your current arrestor the surge has to travel down the bus-bar past all your breakers and a bit of it will head off towards your delicate kit. Possibly enough energy to fry something before the arrestor triggers.

 

How have you verified your incoming polarity?

 

Is that incoming device an RCBO? If it's a simple RCD then you have NO overcurrent protection on your incoming supply. Not sure? Please post a photo.

 

I think the incoming device is an RCBO.

 

Below is a picture from it, and on the other circuit is an identical one.

 

I checked polarity on the incoming device and grey is Live. I assume that is how you check polarity.

 

Thanks for mentioning about the location of the surge arrestor, and when I Googled for whole house surge arrestor, that same remark came up a few times but then they explained why it is usually mounted at the bottom.

 

I didn't read up on that explanation, since seeing mine at the end of the rail reassured me mine was correct, but probably you can explain it in short.

 

[Crossy]

The ABB FH202 series are RCDs only not RCBOs

 

http://www.abb.com/product/seitp329/049b745436e76d52c12572aa0050b93f.aspx?tabKey=2&gid=ABB2CSF202004R1400&cid=9AAC100505

 

https://search-ext.abb.com/library/Download.aspx?DocumentID=1SXE420001L0202&LanguageCode=en&DocumentPartId=LineProtection&Action=Launch

 

From the second link;-

 

Quote

 

FH200 and F200 - RCCB

RCCBs are only sensitive to current leakage to earth. They must be used in series with an MCB or fuse which protects them from the potentially damaging thermal and dynamic stresses of any overcurrents.

 

 

You should get an MCB in circuit as soon as possible, a single pole one will do the trick (and is cheap), no reason why it should not be installed in the live after the RCD. Don't panic, nothing is going to kill you right now (after all it's been fine since it was installed), but with no over-current protection any short could be of an explosive nature (and MOVs fail short when they wear out).

 

To verify your polarity use a neon screwdriver, it will light on the phase/live and not on the neutral. Or, if you have a multimeter, measure the AC voltage between ground (preferably a large screwdriver in the lawn rather than your ground rod) and live, should be about 220V, same measurement from ground to neutral, should be about zero.

 

Sadly, as is often the case with a Thai electrical installation the can of worms has been opened. And you thought it was going to be a simple task

 

 

[tomas557]

23 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

To verify your polarity use a neon screwdriver, it will light on the phase/live and not on the neutral

That is how I checked, and the grey wire lights up, but my system was done by a European electrician, and he use black as neutral and red as live for the whole system.

 

So I guess he used the black  as neutral on the main cable to cause as less confusion as possible, about which one is the neutral in his installation.

 

I think in Europe it actually should be red an blue, but not sure if blue wires are available here.

 

 

I'm getting confused about the MCB's.

 

All the breakers in the box are SH 201, which tells me they are MCB's. So what I need an extra MCB for and how do I connect it?

 

I also can tell from past experience that if there is an issue somewhere in the circuit it is always the RCCB that trips and never any of the MCB's

 

 

EDIT : I should also add, there is a 100 A Mitsubishi breaker at the entrance of the powerline to the property

Edited August 16, 2017 by tomas557

[Crossy]

OK, a good start, polarity appears to be correct.

 

If you add up the ratings of all those MCBs it will come to rather more than the rating of your meter (probably a 15/45 rated at 45A, or possibly a 30/100 rated at 100A).

 

Obviously you are unlikely to load everything up to the maximum, but it could happen at which point your meter could fail. Also, when your MOV wears out, if it's internal protection (that puts the red flag on) fails to open, several thousand amps could flow, this would likely result in something exploding in a big way.

 

Go and get an ABB 63A MCB (like the ones you already have) and connect it either by :-

 

Moving the incoming live to the new MCB and then linking the out going side of the MCB to where you removed the live from (obviously you would have to do this live, not a good idea unless suitably skilled).

 

OR

 

Turn off the RCD and remove the bus-bar from all the MCBs and the RCD. Slip the new MCB in next to the RCD, link the bottom right RCD terminal to the top terminal of the MCB and then re-install the bus-bar to link the bottom of all the MCBs (but not the RCD).

 

Links should be made using 10mm² wire.

 

Like I said, it's not going to kill you right now, but it's not right and has the potential to cause fires / death / frights.

[tomas557]

7 minutes ago, Crossy said:

OK, a good start, polarity appears to be correct.

 

If you add up the ratings of all those MCBs it will come to rather more than the rating of your meter (probably a 15/45 rated at 45A, or possibly a 30/100 rated at 100A).

 

Obviously you are unlikely to load everything up to the maximum, but it could happen at which point your meter could fail. Also, when your MOV wears out, if it's internal protection (that puts the red flag on) fails to open, several thousand amps could flow, this would likely result in something exploding in a big way.

 

Go and get an ABB 63A MCB (like the ones you already have) and connect it either by :-

 

Moving the incoming live to the new MCB and then linking the out going side of the MCB to where you removed the live from (obviously you would have to do this live, not a good idea unless suitably skilled).

 

OR

 

Turn off the RCD and remove the bus-bar from all the MCBs and the RCD. Slip the new MCB in next to the RCD, link the bottom right RCD terminal to the top terminal of the MCB and then re-install the bus-bar to link the bottom of all the MCBs (but not the RCD).

 

Links should be made using 10mm² wire.

 

Like I said, it's not going to kill you right now, but it's not right and has the potential to cause fires / death / frights.

 

Not sure if something is lost in translation, but all MCB's are linked to the RCB with the bus-bar.

 

I understand that with the RCB the outgoing is a the bottom, while with a MCB the outgoing is at the top, so outgoing RCB is connected to incoming MCB.

 

Isn't that sufficient?

 

[Crossy]

9 minutes ago, tomas557 said:

Isn't that sufficient?

No it is not!

 

EDIT Also I'm looking at the red wire below the breaker marked "7" in your last picture, is that slipped into the connector with the bus-bar? What does it feed?

[tomas557]

4 minutes ago, Crossy said:

No it is not!

 

Ok I'll get myself the MCB. Should I get only one on the incoming RCD or one for the other one as well?

 

How about the price of the surge protectors, worth to order online, or will the price in Thailand be only little bit more?

[Crossy]

Before you go shopping let me knock up some simple drawings so you (or your man) know exactly what to do. You only need one MCB.

 

Can you check what your meter rating is, it will be marked 15/45 or 30/100 somewhere on the plate.

 

As to getting the arrestors here, I've never seen them sold retail although I expect the local specialist shops have/can get them. Up to you, spend time and fuel hunting them down, or just order on line.

 

What about that red wire, it's worrying me, it may just be an illusion but ...

[tomas557]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

Before you go shopping let me knock up some simple drawings so you (or your man) know exactly what to do. You only need one MCB.

 

Can you check what your meter rating is, it will be marked 15/45 or 30/100 somewhere on the plate.

 

As to getting the arrestors here, I've never seen them sold retail although I expect the local specialist shops have/can get them. Up to you, spend time and fuel hunting them down, or just order on line.

 

What about that red wire, it's worrying me, it may just be an illusion but ...

My meter is 30/100.

 

Which red wire you have in mind?

 

If you mean the one on MCB 7, it links the bus bar to the the bus bar of some additional MCB's that are in a breaker box below, and are on the same RCD.

[Crossy]

8 minutes ago, tomas557 said:

Which red wire you have in mind?

 

Is it slipped into the connection with the bus bar? (and where does it go). Or is it an optical illusion and it goes under the breakers?

 

 

[tomas557]

Just now, Crossy said:

 

Is it slipped into the connection with the bus bar? (and where does it go). Or is it an optical illusion and it goes under the breakers?

 

 

 it is slipped in the connection with the bus bar and goes to the bus bar of 5 additional breakers which are located in a similar box just below.

[Crossy]

Just now, tomas557 said:

it is slipped in the connection with the bus bar and goes to the bus bar of 5 additional breakers which are located in a similar box just below.

Got it, no problem there

[tomas557]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Got it, no problem there

Thanks, I look forward to your drawing.

 

 

[Crossy]

Since you are on a 30/100 and breakers over 63A are a lot more expensive (is this your home or a rental?). We should do a quick prospective load calculation.

 

Can you list your big loads please:-

 

• Water heaters
• Aircons
• Electric cooking appliances
• Sheds full of machine tools

If we can make it all safe and protected using small (63A) breakers you won't kill me for spending too much of your hard earned wonga.

 

EDIT One last thing. Are you certain there's nothing else between those incoming (black and grey) wires and the meter? Maybe a fuse or another switch/breaker?

 

[Beats56]

Surge protectors only stop fluctuations of the power company not lighting strikes. Lightning in the area unplug everything

[Crossy]

37 minutes ago, Beats56 said:

Surge protectors only stop fluctuations of the power company not lighting strikes. Lightning in the area unplug everything

Incorrect!

 

The whole point of MOVs is the grab large, lightning induced surges.

 

Nothing is going to save you from a direct hit on the supply lines, maybe not even pulling the plugs.

 

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, tomas557 said:

Thanks, I look forward to your drawing.

Another "one last thing" (I'm beginning to feel like Columbo).

 

It's not totally clear when the second RCD is getting its feed, if you turn off the one with the incoming supply does all the power go off?

 

[bankruatsteve]

2 hours ago, tomas557 said:

EDIT : I should also add, there is a 100 A Mitsubishi breaker at the entrance of the powerline to the property

 

[Pilotman]

you all may as well  be writing in Klingon  for all I understand what you are on about..