Myanmar men appeal against death sentences over British murders in Thailand

[StealthEnergiser]

14 hours ago, IslandLover said:

They paid him well (sorry, I don't have time to look for that photo of Sean shaking hands with the cop, but it does exist).

[Krenjai]

7 hours ago, balo said:

 

Really ?  Did Sean talk about that ?  You are just making up what you think happened aren't you?

Sean could actually be even more involved , he could be one of the rapists.  There could be a group of drugged people there and it got out of control .  

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, as I said my take on this. So Sean, care to respond?

 

That wound on your arm,  motorbike accident right? Same for the blood on the guitar,  right?  You overslept meeting David, right? You posted on FB who did it? Ah yes you meant who did it IF they found you hanging, right? Cmon clean up your lies and all this speculation wherever you are.... 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Krenjai

[StealthEnergiser]

[StealthEnergiser]

hoe man

[IslandLover]

4 hours ago, StealthEnergiser said:

I hadn't seen that photo before.  Thanks.  

 

You can clearly see the wound on his arm.

Edited August 28, 2017 by IslandLover

[IslandLover]

4 hours ago, Krenjai said:

Yes, as I said my take on this. So Sean, care to respond?

 

That wound on your arm,  motorbike accident right? Same for the blood on the guitar,  right?  You overslept meeting David, right? You posted on FB who did it? Ah yes you meant who did it IF they found you hanging, right? Cmon clean up your lies and all this speculation wherever you are.... 

Regarding the wound on his arm, one story he told was that he had got into a fight with a Thai local over a room.

[Krenjai]

3 hours ago, IslandLover said:

Regarding the wound on his arm, one story he told was that he had got into a fight with a Thai local over a room.

I recall the fight over a room story which was changed to a motorbike accident, but doesn't a picture paint a thousand words? 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Krenjai

[Krenjai]

That is a lot of blood on that guitar, looks like it is sprayed on..... now if you fall from a motorbike I don't think the blood spatter pattern would be like that. I would assume no blood on the guitar at all in that case.

 

The wound on his arm, looks very very similar to the stab wounds David had and I reiterate, IMHO it was caused by a push knife. 

 

I also recall a story he was treated at the AC bar that night by staff from the AC bar. This story disappeared however somehow, probably had to disappear as it hooks him as a witness to the crime scene.

 

The chase he posted on his FB  page and the threatening to hang him was very likely the result because he INDEED was a witness. What do you with witnesses? Well study the JFK murder, you eliminate them. 

 

ALL IMHO

Edited August 28, 2017 by Krenjai

[greenchair]

8 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

 

Hannah walking into the bar 00:15 page 11 or 12

Attacked around midnight page 19

 

It was not hearsay testimony , MM testified during a pre-trial hearing

Page 11, 12 say hannah entered bar at 00.15 and david 2.08 am. 

Estimated time of death.

2.15 to 5 am

I'm not seeing they were attacked around midnight on page 19. 

It says about 1 am the 2 went to buy some more beers, later mau mau returned with a bottle of wine after that mau stayed for a while, then left again to his girlfriend. 

Then it started to rain, and 1 had a headache, so they decided to take a dip on the way home. 

How long do you think it would take to go buy beer come back sit down drink some with mau, probably at least an hour or more. 

Yes, that makes sense. 

It's after 2 am raining, I'm drunk and I have a headache, let's go for a swim in the sea.

Then after all that, he got back to the room and decided to return to the scene. 

Reading between the lines the only reason mau mau is not in prison is there was no dna found with the victims. Doesn't mean he wasn't there 

[bannork]

26 minutes ago, Krenjai said:

I recall the fight over a room story which was changed to a motorbike accident, but doesn't a picture paint a thousand words? 

Sean claiming the cut happened earlier, on the 9th.

https://cambodiaexpatsonline.com/thailand-news-and-discussion/david-miller-hannah-witheridge-murdered-thailand-island-t1965-310.html

[greenchair]

After reading the court transcript by mwrn, I can see clearly the judge did not listen to either the plaintiff or the defendants. 

Every issue that he agreed or disagreed with, was backed up by evidence. 

In one post I said the murder wasn't proven. 

But I do take that back. 

The only conclusion from the evidence. Guilty on all counts. 

 

[rockingrobin]

8 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Page 11, 12 say hannah entered bar at 00.15 and david 2.08 am. 

Estimated time of death.

2.15 to 5 am

I'm not seeing they were attacked around midnight on page 19. 

It says about 1 am the 2 went to buy some more beers, later mau mau returned with a bottle of wine after that mau stayed for a while, then left again to his girlfriend. 

Then it started to rain, and 1 had a headache, so they decided to take a dip on the way home. 

How long do you think it would take to go buy beer come back sit down drink some with mau, probably at least an hour or more. 

Yes, that makes sense. 

It's after 2 am raining, I'm drunk and I have a headache, let's go for a swim in the sea.

Then after all that, he got back to the room and decided to return to the scene. 

Reading between the lines the only reason mau mau is not in prison is there was no dna found with the victims. Doesn't mean he wasn't there 

Ok you may have it at page 22 or 23

 

' After reviewing the evidence and witnesses of both parties, plaintiffs and defendants, it has been concluded that, on the 14th September 2014, around midnight, an unknown number of criminal(s) had brutally attacked the First Deceased, Mr. David William Miller on his head and face with a blunt object, and the Second Deceased Miss Hannah Victoria Witheridge, until she was severely injured and subsequently passed away at Sairee beach, Moo 1, Tambon Koh Tao'

[Next stop NK]

Sorry for the misjustice

Edited August 28, 2017 by Next stop NK
Sorry

[IslandLover]

2 hours ago, bannork said:

Sean claiming the cut happened earlier, on the 9th.

https://cambodiaexpatsonline.com/thailand-news-and-discussion/david-miller-hannah-witheridge-murdered-thailand-island-t1965-310.html

And do you believe him?

[TheLobster]

19 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Yes -- I find reading some of the self-righteous, self-aggrandizing BS that gets posted on here to be very entertaining.

As you generate most of it, that makes sense.

[JLCrab]

Thank you. You are entertaining as always. and you too liker fellas.

Why is it most all of you guys who seem to be so vexed at what I write are from UK?

Edited August 28, 2017 by JLCrab

[greenchair]

8 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

Ok you may have it at page 22 or 23

 

' After reviewing the evidence and witnesses of both parties, plaintiffs and defendants, it has been concluded that, on the 14th September 2014, around midnight, an unknown number of criminal(s) had brutally attacked the First Deceased, Mr. David William Miller on his head and face with a blunt object, and the Second Deceased Miss Hannah Victoria Witheridge, until she was severely injured and subsequently passed away at Sairee beach, Moo 1, Tambon Koh Tao'

On pg 59 it says there were some minor complaints by the defendants that he would not consider because they would not effect the ruling. 

It is similar to the time error that you have pointed out. Of course in any court case, slight mistakes are made about time and dates. 

The beginning already says time of death 2.15 to 5am and says the actions of the parties prior to that time all backed up by cctv footage. The mistake in time that you refer could have been lost in translation of early hours of the morning, or the beginning of the evening activities of drinking at the log. 

Anyway, it would not effect the verdict of the court so therefore it is irrelevant. 

[greenchair]

What is interesting is the judge did not accept the confession / re enactment as evidence. 

The judgement was based on dna, phone, and cctv footage that both defendants agreed that the cctv was them. The second defendant agreed he was not sleeping but back down at the beach up until around 4am. 

The second defendant agreed on the theft of the phone and that it belonged to David, although his story about how he came to have it changed 3 times. 

Mau says he woke Wei Phyo up and they went back to the beach together. 

Wei Phyo says he had already "found " the phone and met Mau as he was walking back to the room. 

Either way , why would mau be up and wandering around between 3am and 4am after a night of drinking? ???

The story that they had a drink on the log, went for a swim and walked back to the room, where they were found sleeping at 5am is an absolute sham that led many to believe their innocence. 

With the above summary, it is obvious the lawyers had very little resource of alibi to defend the case. The guilty plea would have seen them out in 10 or 15 years. 

Really, I don't understand the lawyers tactics. I hope they asked the supreme court for a commute of sentence because of their age. 

Perhaps the SC will see the stupidity of the defense ,  have mercy and commute the sentence anyway. 

One thing is certain, those 2 at least are not going to get away with this crime or a change of verdict. 

 

[stephenterry]

2 hours ago, greenchair said:

The judgement was based on dna, phone, and cctv footage that both defendants agreed that the cctv was them

I don't recall any CCTV evidence showing both the B2. I do recall their evidence stating they were on the beach playing a guitar.

 

I don't recall any DNA evidence as being validated, verified, and substantiated, merely a piece of paper with crossing outs stating there was a match. No original samples - either used up or lost. To build a case around a fictitious DNA scenario is not credible in any other country purporting to follow International standards, as follows:

 

There was the alleged murder weapon - the hoe. Which contained David Miller's DNA on the handle (was Hannah's DNA also on it - can't remember?) and one unidentified sample, but neither of the B2. So how did the B2 carry out the murders according to the prosecution's hoe evidence? And why weren't the puncture wounds on David's face, neck and head raised in court - seems to me that the defence missed a trick here. And one step further - why wasn't HW's clothes DNA tested, brought into court as evidence against the B2? - Why? Because they were 'lost' and/or did not contain either of the B2's DNA. Same question re the blond hair found in HW's hand that was also 'lost'?

 

While there is a possibility that the B2 witnessed the murderous attack, and picked up a phone, it beggars belief that they carried out the horrific murders. They had no motive to use extreme violence. So how did the court arrive at its judgement stating that the DNA evidence trumps all other (circumstantial) evidence? 

 

Beats me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by stephenterry
addition to text.

[greenchair]

6 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

I don't recall any CCTV evidence showing both the B2. I do recall their evidence stating they were on the beach playing a guitar.

 

I don't recall any DNA evidence as being validated, verified, and substantiated, merely a piece of paper with crossing outs stating there was a match. No original samples - either used up or lost. To build a case around a fictitious DNA scenario is not credible in any other country purporting to follow International standards, as follows:

 

There was the alleged murder weapon - the hoe. Which contained David Miller's DNA on the handle (was Hannah's DNA also on it - can't remember?) and one unidentified sample, but neither of the B2. So how did the B2 carry out the murders according to the prosecution's hoe evidence? And why weren't the puncture wounds on David's face, neck and head raised in court - seems to me that the defence missed a trick here. And one step further - why wasn't HW's clothes DNA tested, brought into court as evidence against the B2? - Why? Because they were 'lost' and/or did not contain either of the B2's DNA. 

 

While there is a possibility that the B2 witnessed the murderous attack, and picked up a phone, it beggars belief that they carried out the horrific murders. They had no motive to use extreme violence. So how did the court arrive at its judgement stating that the DNA evidence trumps all other (circumstantial) evidence? 

 

Beats me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You've finally conceded they were there, as have I. 

Yeah sure, they witnessed it, stole the phone from the scene but did not participate in any way. 

Now, they are too frightened to reveal "the real murderers " for fear of their lives that are currently on death row waiting for the final appeal verdict. 

We know that because the detective books say this was a very angry person and must have had a motive, such as he lost face when the girl turned him down. 

Tell that to the supreme court. 

You'll have as much luck as Andy with his gaet analysis. 

 

As for cctv footage, read the ruling. 

 

[stephenterry]

Perhaps someone could clarify what CCTV footage contained the B2, and under what circumstances, because I can't recall it ever being raised in court or elsewhere.

 

As to witnessing the murders, I said there was a possibility only because they were in the vicinity - like many suppositions, that is circumstantial evidence at best. 

 

But, I see that the fictitious DNA evidence has been ignored in favour of handling a phone. 

 

And, IMO, I would not be surprised if the SC does not accept the Appeal, which means further delay.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by stephenterry
addition to text.

[transam]

6 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Thank you. You are entertaining as always. and you too liker fellas.

Why is it most all of you guys who seem to be so vexed at what I write are from UK?

I have sat on jury service in the UK, so know first hand how a justice system should work..

[GOLDBUGGY]

12 hours ago, greenchair said:

After reading the court transcript by mwrn, I can see clearly the judge did not listen to either the plaintiff or the defendants. 

Every issue that he agreed or disagreed with, was backed up by evidence. 

In one post I said the murder wasn't proven. 

But I do take that back. 

The only conclusion from the evidence. Guilty on all counts. 

 

Was there on piece of evidence that stood out in your mind the got your deciding vote?

[JLCrab]

1 hour ago, transam said:

I have sat on jury service in the UK, so know first hand how a justice system should work..

I see -- so in the US where many trials are bench trials and held without a jury, the justice system doesn't work.

 

(However) most states give the defendant the absolute right to waive a jury trial. The right to a jury trial is exclusively that of the criminal defendant; where one has the right to waive a jury trial, and does so, the prosecution cannot ask for one.  (Wikipedia)

 

And what if there was a jury trial at the original Samui District Court. The farang could not serve. The Burmese could not serve. And any of the locals who would be on the jury would convict because they would be afraid of you-know-who.

Edited August 29, 2017 by JLCrab

[rockingrobin]

13 hours ago, greenchair said:

After reading the court transcript by mwrn, I can see clearly the judge did not listen to either the plaintiff or the defendants. 

Every issue that he agreed or disagreed with, was backed up by evidence. 

In one post I said the murder wasn't proven. 

But I do take that back. 

The only conclusion from the evidence. Guilty on all counts. 

 

This is a contradiction, if the judges did not listen to either the plaintiff or defendants , then what evidence did the court introduce, and who cross examined that evidence.

[rockingrobin]

4 hours ago, greenchair said:

On pg 59 it says there were some minor complaints by the defendants that he would not consider because they would not effect the ruling. 

It is similar to the time error that you have pointed out. Of course in any court case, slight mistakes are made about time and dates. 

The beginning already says time of death 2.15 to 5am and says the actions of the parties prior to that time all backed up by cctv footage. The mistake in time that you refer could have been lost in translation of early hours of the morning, or the beginning of the evening activities of drinking at the log. 

Anyway, it would not effect the verdict of the court so therefore it is irrelevant. 

it is not just the time discrepency,

We have an uknown number of criminals , the prosecution clearly state 2

The second deceased attacked untill severly injured and subsequently passed away , this suggests that the attackers left her alive and she died afterwards

 

It is as if this as been written by somebody that was not present at the trial

Edited August 29, 2017 by rockingrobin

[transam]

1 hour ago, JLCrab said:

I see -- so in the US where many trials are bench trials and held without a jury, the justice system doesn't work.

 

(However) most states give the defendant the absolute right to waive a jury trial. The right to a jury trial is exclusively that of the criminal defendant; where one has the right to waive a jury trial, and does so, the prosecution cannot ask for one.  (Wikipedia)

 

And what if there was a jury trial at the original Samui District Court. The farang could not serve. The Burmese could not serve. And any of the locals who would be on the jury would convict because they would be afraid of you-know-who.

Juries are in place so folk get a fair trial with the evidence provided and direction from the judge, it is near foolproof, that's why it was created.

 

So now you come back with a "what if"...I sat on juries where folk in the dock were not British and he or his council could get me replaced if they didn't like the look of me, that is a fair justice system.I know we are not in the UK but if we were the B2 would be back at work somewhere..

[JLCrab]

Well good for you. In the US many defendants forgo a jury trial because they feel they would get a fairer judgment from a Judge than from the available jury pool and that juries are unpredictable.

In the US and I would guess UK, the Defense is entitled to discover the Prosecution's evidence. Not in Thailand. I would guess that is because in too many cases, the defendants were not impoverished but had substantial resources and could make evidence disappear or intimidate witnesses prior to the trial. So there are reasons I would say that Thailand has the Justice system it does and it makes no difference what the procedures are in the US or UK.

... and if there were a jury at the original Samui trial, they probably would've been convicted because (if you believe what's written on here) every one of the Thais -- not farang or Burmese -- on the jury would be afraid of the vicious family of the real serial killer on the loose.

Edited August 29, 2017 by JLCrab

[GOLDBUGGY]

On 8/22/2017 at 3:57 PM, mommysboy said:

People in UK sometimes plead guilty, because although they know themselves to be innocent they feel the evidence against them is enough for conviction.  By pleading guilty they know that they will receive a much lighter sentence.  So it does happen.

Yes it does happen. I personally know a person who it happened to. 

 

Easy for people to sit in there arm chairs and say if you were innicent you would fight this until the cows came home. But not so easy if you have to remortgage your house to pay for a Good Lawyer to Defend you, and where it seems they have some kind of case against you, even if you didn't do it. Where fighting it and losing means a long jail sentence, but takng the Plea Bargain means perhaps no jail sentence at all. 

[greenchair]

55 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

it is not just the time discrepency,

We have an uknown number of criminals , the prosecution clearly state 2

The second deceased attacked untill severly injured and subsequently passed away , this suggests that the attackers left her alive and she died afterwards

 

It is as if this as been written by somebody that was not present at the trial

In a way it is written by someone not present. The judge listens then speaks into his recorder. after the day is finished. the office girl will type the summary of what the judge said. Some things that are not going to effect the case are left even though it is slightly wrong. Because everyone must sign before going home. That time is clearly a type error. Because the beginning has the right times, with corroborated evidence. 

Nobody knows every detail of how both victims died. They have tried to piece it together with evidence to back it up. They only know she was raped before she died and the judge explained why. They have evidence of 2, but it doesn't mean there weren't more. The judge said they can only prosecute where there is some evidence and that is why mau mau was not prosecuted. because they had only ,cctv of him, his dna on the butt, and he was near the crime. But they could not connect him to the victims.might even be mau mau dna on the hoe  (unknown dna). 

You have to look at the main details.