Farmers defend Yingluck scheme and ask for help

[Srikcir]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

Perhaps you should read today's BP analysis of the rice scam. 4 experts and a farmer's rep, the experts pointing out what a disaster it was, and the farmer's rep making stupid little statements of absolutely zero credibility. Much like you.

Hindsight is always the purest form of truth.

[halloween]

31 minutes ago, binjalin said:

The scheme failed due to price shifts. The intention was honorable. A scam indicates the PM made graft and that has not been shown nor proven anywhere. This has kilos to run and run.

The article I referred to was "how awful was rice pledging" and the opinions range from scathing to almost conciliatory (no need to guess who that was).  It contains in depth opinions of those in the know, most of which contradict your opinion, which is heavily flavoured with sycophancy. Don't bother wasting my time.

[Srikcir]

2 hours ago, halloween said:

stupid, inept and full of wishful thinking.

Exactly. These are not crimes.

[halloween]

2 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Hindsight is always the purest form of truth.

Hindsight wasn't required. The proposal was universally panned as unworkable, and that was the kinder view. The review of its performance after 2 years justified the initial claims. the only hindsight is "you were told, now face the consequences." 

[halloween]

2 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Exactly. These are not crimes.

Why do you push the same old diversions? Nobody said they were. The charge is criminal negligence for not doing something about it, even when its failure was obvious and independent agencies made sure you were aware of it. In fact she made one feeble attempt to reduce loss, and then withdrew it under political pressure, which proves she was aware but still declined to act.

[Srikcir]

2 minutes ago, halloween said:

Hindsight wasn't required.

I was responding to your reference to a post-pledge program analysis.

I have previously twice responded elsewhere to your pre-pledge program analysis and will not belabor to do so again.

[binjalin]

4 minutes ago, halloween said:

The article I referred to was "how awful was rice pledging" and the opinions range from scathing to almost conciliatory (no need to guess who that was).  It contains in depth opinions of those in the know, most of which contradict your opinion, which is heavily flavoured with sycophancy. Don't bother wasting my time.

"don't bother wasting my time"   You have to be one of the most arrogant posters on here! you post prolifically, constantly, day after day the 'Halloween cure for world ills'. Don't get out much?  There are other views besides yours.

[mike324]

51 minutes ago, binjalin said:

The scheme failed due to price shifts. The intention was honorable. A scam indicates the PM made graft and that has not been shown nor proven anywhere. This has kilos to run and run.

 

Scheme failed due to what price shifts? That the world price of rice didn't increase as Yinglucks administration hope? 

 

This is a scam and has always been from day 1 since the Thaksins administration. Those that benefited were the rice mills, which even PTP found and admitted were guilty but none held responsible for. 

[halloween]

21 minutes ago, binjalin said:

"don't bother wasting my time"   You have to be one of the most arrogant posters on here! you post prolifically, constantly, day after day the 'Halloween cure for world ills'. Don't get out much?  There are other views besides yours.

Yes and I've heard yours. When you get over your unrequited love for a corrupt stooge, you might have something interesting to say, perhaps even something to support your opinion, like facts, links, that sort of thing.

[halloween]

59 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

I was responding to your reference to a post-pledge program analysis.

I have previously twice responded elsewhere to your pre-pledge program analysis and will not belabor to do so again.

Yes I remember. Everybody was biased against her, it's just unfortunate that they were right.

[Kieran00001]

On 22/08/2017 at 5:58 AM, ezzra said:

I don't expect the Thai farmers to react in any other way than to supprot

the person who gave them free billions of bahts...

There is no excuse to justify buying thousands of tons of rice paying inflated

prices just to manipulate the markets and for most of it to be just left there and rot away..., sure, there's is nothing in being 

a commerce savvy but i need to make your homework before committing

hundreds of billions of the public's money to such folly,,

it's got so bad, that rice from neighboring counrties were sold to the government

as Thai rice, i mean how low can you go?......

 

The justification would be the history, when Thaksin did this scheme the first time he increased Thailands budget by such an amount as to pay off their IMF loan early, double the GDP and put a huge wedge into the farmers pockets, it served Thailand very well indeed.   It is not money from the public purse when the rice gets sold and all the money comes back in, if it were then we would not have seen such a good economy during that time, a budget that enabled the start of universal health care, etc.  You should ask yourself why the rice just sat there and was rotting, who interfered and what did they fear from yet another rice scheme benefiting the farmers and the Thai economy?  As for people selling rice that they had not grown, rice grown abroad, if that happened then that would actually have helped the scheme, it would of course be difficult for Thailand to cover the costs but it would only increase the global shortage and thus help inflate the price so in the end it would pay off.

[halloween]

57 minutes ago, mike324 said:

 

Scheme failed due to what price shifts? That the world price of rice didn't increase as Yinglucks administration hope? 

 

This is a scam and has always been from day 1 since the Thaksins administration. Those that benefited were the rice mills, which even PTP found and admitted were guilty but none held responsible for. 

The rice mills are a handy scapegoat, but are also suffering from the rice scam. It caused a huge surge in production and milling capacity was increased to cope. Today, Thailand has milling capacity of 125 million tonnes pa, with a production of 30 million tonnes or less.

Source: Nipon Poapongsakorn, TDRI.

 

Similar problems with those who invested in rice storage.

[halloween]

4 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The justification would be the history, when Thaksin did this scheme the first time he increased Thailands budget by such an amount as to pay off their IMF loan early, double the GDP and put a huge wedge into the farmers pockets, it served Thailand very well indeed.   It is not money from the public purse when the rice gets sold and all the money comes back in, if it were then we would not have seen such a good economy during that time, a budget that enabled the start of universal health care, etc.  You should ask yourself why the rice just sat there and was rotting, who interfered and what did they fear from yet another rice scheme benefiting the farmers and the Thai economy?  As for people selling rice that they had not grown, rice grown abroad, if that happened then that would actually have helped the scheme, it would of course be difficult for Thailand to cover the costs but it would only increase the global shortage and thus help inflate the price so in the end it would pay off.

In one G2G deal, 300,000t to Indonesia the loss to Thailand was B3.3 billion, B900 million of which was "agent's fees" to Siam Indiga. Surprise, all the money DID NOT come back in.

Why did the rice sit there? Google 'dumping'.

Edited August 25, 2017 by halloween

[LannaGuy]

15 minutes ago, halloween said:

Yes I remember. Everybody was biased against her, it's just unfortunate that they were right.

But not the electorate, they voted in a strange thing called 'an election' much to your chagrin. 

[halloween]

1 minute ago, LannaGuy said:

But not the electorate, they voted in a strange thing called 'an election' much to your chagrin. 

I thought you had gone, oh well. Yes, I am chagrined that the electorate bought the electoral bribe offered them. Just more proof that real democracy requires an educated and informed populace, a free and critical press, independent oversight agencies more than it needs elections.

 

Would the electorate have voted for the scam if they were warned of the likely results by media unafraid to criticise proposed idiocy?

[LannaGuy]

Just now, halloween said:

I thought you had gone, oh well. Yes, I am chagrined that the electorate bought the electoral bribe offered them. Just more proof that real democracy requires an educated and informed populace, a free and critical press, independent oversight agencies more than it needs elections.

 

Would the electorate have voted for the scam if they were warned of the likely results by media unafraid to criticise proposed idiocy?

The electorate had little knowledge of it. They voted for the party that most represented them (and will again). As for a 'media unafraid to criticize proposed idiocy' don't see you saying that about your beloved Junta and their control of the media.

[Kieran00001]

37 minutes ago, halloween said:

In one G2G deal, 300,000t to Indonesia the loss to Thailand was B3.3 billion, B900 million of which was "agent's fees" to Siam Indiga. Surprise, all the money DID NOT come back in.

Why did the rice sit there? Google 'dumping'.

 

The rice sat there largely because the opposition disrupted the country causing foreign buyers to pull out.  You and all the helpful idiots need to ask why the urgent need to disrupt the country at a time when things were looking like they were about to go very well again for Thailand, the pattern was just the same as the previous boom, the boom that sealed the vote for the Shins.

[halloween]

25 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

The electorate had little knowledge of it. They voted for the party that most represented them (and will again). As for a 'media unafraid to criticize proposed idiocy' don't see you saying that about your beloved Junta and their control of the media.

"The electorate had little knowledge of it." TYVF you have confirmed my belief that democracy in Thailand was a farce, and will continue to be until the minimal requirements for it to operate successfully, as mentioned, are met.

What existed under Thaksin and Yingluk was closer to pack rape than democracy, where the majority are given bribes to ignore the criminal behaviour of their leaders. Now you will come back with but but but the junta are criminals too. Yes they are, but that doesn't make the criminals they replaced any better.

[halloween]

1 minute ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The rice sat there largely because the opposition disrupted the country causing foreign buyers to pull out.  You and all the helpful idiots need to ask why the urgent need to disrupt the country at a time when things were looking like they were about to go very well again for Thailand, the pattern was just the same as the previous boom, the boom that sealed the vote for the Shins.

Posting deliberate lies is against forum rules. Just because you believe the BS peddled by the Shin propaganda machine doesn't change the fact that it is a lie. The rice could only be sold G2G because selling it for less than they paid for it is dumping and would invoke WTO sanctions.

 

BTW did you forget to mention the huge losses selling the rice, money NOT coming back?

[Kieran00001]

5 minutes ago, halloween said:

Posting deliberate lies is against forum rules. Just because you believe the BS peddled by the Shin propaganda machine doesn't change the fact that it is a lie. The rice could only be sold G2G because selling it for less than they paid for it is dumping and would invoke WTO sanctions.

 

BTW did you forget to mention the huge losses selling the rice, money NOT coming back?

 

What is a lie, that buyers pulled out?  They most definately did, and that was almost immediately after the Bangkok shutdown as a result of their witch hunt.

 

Obviously no one wants dumping, the idea was to wait until the price was higher, something the opposition was not prepared to let happen again considering just how well it went the time before, well not prepared to let it happen for them anyway, that would though of course be something the current government wants to happen for them from their own copy cat scheme.

 

No, I am not forgetting the losses, I am just not so taken as to imagine that these losses would have incurred without political sabotage by the opposition, the effects of which we are still feeling, exports were at an all time high in 2011 and have fallen dramatically since the Bangkok shutdown as well as bringing us the slowest growth in the region, the large financial losses have all been caused by the yellows, that is clear to anyone with even half a brain.

[binjalin]

56 minutes ago, halloween said:

Posting deliberate lies is against forum rules. Just because you believe the BS peddled by the Shin propaganda machine doesn't change the fact that it is a lie. The rice could only be sold G2G because selling it for less than they paid for it is dumping and would invoke WTO sanctions.

 

BTW did you forget to mention the huge losses selling the rice, money NOT coming back?

Very good BP article. Balanced as always. No blame just disappointment it went badly. I really like their approach. Every PM in the world gets things wrong, look at Iraq, Libya etc. PM's are held accountable while 'in office' and are accountable, should be, to the electorate not some General. If there is provable corruption then the investigative arm of government should, rightly, be involved.  No point in threshing (hehe) around over this she didn't gain anything personally and hindsight is an exact science. As BP say's price were expected to rise and did not. Plenty more to run on this. Have a nice day and be nice.

[halloween]

26 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

What is a lie, that buyers pulled out?  They most definately did, and that was almost immediately after the Bangkok shutdown as a result of their witch hunt.

 

Obviously no one wants dumping, the idea was to wait until the price was higher, something the opposition was not prepared to let happen again considering just how well it went the time before, well not prepared to let it happen for them anyway, that would though of course be something the current government wants to happen for them from their own copy cat scheme.

 

No, I am not forgetting the losses, I am just not so taken as to imagine that these losses would have incurred without political sabotage by the opposition, the effects of which we are still feeling, exports were at an all time high in 2011 and have fallen dramatically since the Bangkok shutdown as well as bringing us the slowest growth in the region, the large financial losses have all been caused by the yellows, that is clear to anyone with even half a brain.

Make up your mind which lie you are telling, the buyers pulled out or we didn't want to sell it - that's with 18 million tonnes in storage slowly rotting. Have you read the article in today's BP 'how awful was rice pledging' because you sadly need informing of what went on. Do you know that by the time of the BKK shutdown the rice scam had already lost B200 billion and climbing?

 

Can you explain to me how a deal, including a closed door agency fee, between the Yingluk government and Indonesia suffered "political sabotage by the opposition"? They allowed their agent to buy rice at B12/kg and sell it at B15/kg (market price) even though they had paid B23/kg, resulting in a B3.3 billion loss, and you tell me that is somebody else's fault?

 

What "current government .....own copy cat scheme." Are you under the delusion the junta is buying huge quantities of rice?

[halloween]

3 minutes ago, binjalin said:

Very good BP article. Balanced as always. No blame just disappointment it went badly. I really like their approach. Every PM in the world gets things wrong, look at Iraq, Libya etc. PM's are held accountable while 'in office' and are accountable, should be, to the electorate not some General. If there is provable corruption then the investigative arm of government should, rightly, be involved.  No point in threshing (hehe) around over this she didn't gain anything personally and hindsight is an exact science. As BP say's price were expected to rise and did not. Plenty more to run on this. Have a nice day and be nice.

Take off your red glasses and read it again. The very first paragraph says opinions range from scathing to almost conciliatory - that was the rice farmer who made heaps. Which part of scathing don't you understand?

Thirachai, ex-Finance minister under Yingluk said prices were expected to rise. He also said after the initial results it should have been stopped, amended or narrowed especially after the warnings from various independent agencies.  Guess what, that is a guilty vote from her own minister.

[Kieran00001]

4 minutes ago, halloween said:

Make up your mind which lie you are telling, the buyers pulled out or we didn't want to sell it - that's with 18 million tonnes in storage slowly rotting. Have you read the article in today's BP 'how awful was rice pledging' because you sadly need informing of what went on. Do you know that by the time of the BKK shutdown the rice scam had already lost B200 billion and climbing?

 

Can you explain to me how a deal, including a closed door agency fee, between the Yingluk government and Indonesia suffered "political sabotage by the opposition"? They allowed their agent to buy rice at B12/kg and sell it at B15/kg (market price) even though they had paid B23/kg, resulting in a B3.3 billion loss, and you tell me that is somebody else's fault?

 

What "current government .....own copy cat scheme." Are you under the delusion the junta is buying huge quantities of rice?

 

Huge deals were lost following the Bangkok shutdown, it is hardly a secret, it was all over the international news, including the news of the countries who pulled out, perhaps you could explain exactly how a political party in Thailand could make something like that up.  Of course the scheme was "losing" money, they were pledging money and stockpiling rice, they in,y make the money when they sell it off, are you simple?  Now, how much money did the scheme previous make Thailand?  If someone had of interrupted them before they managed to sell it for more than they bought it for do you not also think they also could have declared a loss from that scheme which turned out to be highly profitable in the long run?

 

I understood the Indonesia deal was cancelled before it happened due to the price being found to be lower than the agreed minimum and having been signed off illegally, are you trying to hold them to account for preventing a corrupt deal, seems a little unfair!

 

The junta has a similar rice scheme despite originaly pledging to end all rice schemes, their scheme also being to stockpile rice in attempt to sell it off when the global price increases, the only difference being where the rice is stored.

 

 

 

[halloween]

4 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Huge deals were lost following the Bangkok shutdown, it is hardly a secret, it was all over the international news, including the news of the countries who pulled out, perhaps you could explain exactly how a political party in Thailand could make something like that up.  Of course the scheme was "losing" money, they were pledging money and stockpiling rice, they in,y make the money when they sell it off, are you simple?  Now, how much money did the scheme previous make Thailand?  If someone had of interrupted them before they managed to sell it for more than they bought it for do you not also think they also could have declared a loss from that scheme which turned out to be highly profitable in the long run?

 

I understood the Indonesia deal was cancelled before it happened due to the price being found to be lower than the agreed minimum and having been signed off illegally, are you trying to hold them to account for preventing a corrupt deal, seems a little unfair!

 

The junta has a similar rice scheme despite originaly pledging to end all rice schemes, their scheme also being to stockpile rice in attempt to sell it off when the global price increases, the only difference being where the rice is stored.

 

 

 

If you truly believe the rubbish you write, I can only feel sorry for you.

 

BTW No, I am NOT "simple".

[Kieran00001]

1 minute ago, halloween said:

If you truly believe the rubbish you write, I can only feel sorry for you.

 

BTW No, I am NOT "simple".

 

Well I am sorry, but when you never mention the reasons the scheme would not go well that year but instead bogus reasons the opposition party put out then you will appear as a simple chap.  I suggest you do some reading into rice mortgage schemes in other countries, Indias strategic stock pile being almost three times as big that year, and with a little lower pledge and lower operating costs they were due to out compete Thailand, the only hope for Thailands scheme to succeed would be to try to wait longer but they were not of course permitted any more time, and perhaps quite rightly as they had overspent and did not have the ability to pay all the farmers. The simple fact is that these rice mortgage schemes are standard practice, they weigh up the odds, take a gamble with how much to strategically stock pile and how much to release, sometimes it makes a profit and sometimes they have to absorb the loss, but they keep the farmers afloat, and that is the essential thing, something the junta also recognises and that is why they continue with the mortgage scheme.  I am not a fan of these schemes, we need support for farmers but strategic stockpiling brings uncertainty to the marketplace, Indias move was so big that year that the price crashed, killing Thailands export chances, ruining farmers all over the world, including in India where countless farmers lost their land.  The fact is that the future is bleak for rice farmers in Thailand, the prices are set to lower in the future not rise and the only hope for the farmers survival are subsidies, the government pledges 13 baht per kg this year which may well be more than it will be worth, not of the same scale as Yinlucks promise but it could well still be a loss making scheme.

[halloween]

15 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Well I am sorry, but when you never mention the reasons the scheme would not go well that year but instead bogus reasons the opposition party put out then you will appear as a simple chap.  I suggest you do some reading into rice mortgage schemes in other countries, Indias strategic stock pile being almost three times as big that year, and with a little lower pledge and lower operating costs they were due to out compete Thailand, the only hope for Thailands scheme to succeed would be to try to wait longer but they were not of course permitted any more time, and perhaps quite rightly as they had overspent and did not have the ability to pay all the farmers. The simple fact is that these rice mortgage schemes are standard practice, they weigh up the odds, take a gamble with how much to strategically stock pile and how much to release, sometimes it makes a profit and sometimes they have to absorb the loss, but they keep the farmers afloat, and that is the essential thing, something the junta also recognises and that is why they continue with the mortgage scheme.  I am not a fan of these schemes, we need support for farmers but strategic stockpiling brings uncertainty to the marketplace, Indias move was so big that year that the price crashed, killing Thailands export chances, ruining farmers all over the world, including in India where countless farmers lost their land.  The fact is that the future is bleak for rice farmers in Thailand, the prices are set to lower in the future not rise and the only hope for the farmers survival are subsidies, the government pledges 13 baht per kg this year which may well be more than it will be worth, not of the same scale as Yinlucks promise but it could well still be a loss making scheme.

I am aware that rice pledging has been around for many years, and its aim. The difference with Yingluk's scam was the price paid, higher than market could ever have been expected to reach, which meant the government was BUYING the rice, the lack of targeting to smaller farmers who may need help, and the failure to limit the losses incurred.

Are you aware the junta's scheme has a limited budget? So did Yingluk's - she ignored it and allowed the losses to mount, aka negligence.

 

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

I am aware that rice pledging has been around for many years, and its aim. The difference with Yingluk's scam was the price paid, higher than market could ever have been expected to reach, which meant the government was BUYING the rice, the lack of targeting to smaller farmers who may need help, and the failure to limit the losses incurred.

Are you aware the junta's scheme has a limited budget? So did Yingluk's - she ignored it and allowed the losses to mount, aka negligence.

 

 

She pledged 20,000 baht a ton and in 2008 the price reached over 30,000 per ton, the only reason it could never have reached the levels that year that it had previously was because of India vastly upping their own scheme and stockpiling much larger amounts to release just when Thailand wanted to go to market, something no one knew was going to happen until it was too late.  The current mortgage is 13,000 baht a ton and we have seen the price go down as low as 5000 baht a ton in relatively recent times, the juntas move is not very different at all, the difference is more in your prejudice than anything else.

[halloween]

2 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

She pledged 20,000 baht a ton and in 2008 the price reached over 30,000 per ton, the only reason it could never have reached the levels that year that it had previously was because of India vastly upping their own scheme and stockpiling much larger amounts to release just when Thailand wanted to go to market, something no one knew was going to happen until it was too late.  The current mortgage is 13,000 baht a ton and we have seen the price go down as low as 5000 baht a ton in relatively recent times, the juntas move is not very different at all, the difference is more in your prejudice than anything else.

One small difference, the junta's scheme has a budget limit, apparently they abide by that limit. Yingluk exceeded the B500 million rotating fund limit by about 1000 times.

[LannaGuy]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

One small difference, the junta's scheme has a budget limit, apparently they abide by that limit. Yingluk exceeded the B500 million rotating fund limit by about 1000 times.

self censored  but the tide will turn

Edited August 25, 2017 by LannaGuy