Schengen vist without visa - possible in some cases?

[fbf]

I was thinking of taking my Thai wife with me on a brief business trip to Budapest. The nature of business trips being annoyingly last minute, now that it's confirmed there isn't time for the 15 clear working days suggested on the VFS Global site (see Processing Time tab for which there is no direct link).

 

It does however say that a spouse of a UK citizen can travel without a visa if their Biometric Residence Permit (BRP) shows the exact wording "Residence card of a family member of a union citizen". My wife's card has no such wording, although it does state "Spouse/partner leave to enter" under the "Type of permit heading".

 

Is there any chance that such a permit could be accepted without a visa? I don't mind risking a £150 flight, but I'm sure my wife would find it extremely horrible and upsetting if turned back. If anyone is able, and kind enough, to show strong evidence that it's ok (maybe travelled recently with a BRP similar to my wife's) then it might be worth risking it. Otherwise, I might just give up on this trip and look for a way to get a multi entry visa for future trips...

 

 

[rasg]

I read very recently on a different forum how somebody goes via the Chunnel and the ferry to France with his Thai wife with no Schengen visa with no problems.

You will need your marriage certificate and a translation depending on where you got married, BRP, travel insurance (we now have EHIC cards too), obviously both passports. I can't find my list of things to take. If I find them I will post them.

 

We plan on trying it with a visit to France when the kids go back to school and and the Chunnel price drops.

 

Flying is far more likely to be an issue and I would suggest that you check with the airline.

 

Found them.

 

Also proof that you live together. I will take a council tax bill. He didn’t take travel insurance. Also the guy that did it flew with Easyjet but there is quite a bit of faffing so go early if you decide to try.

 

Take a print out of the EU Directive 38 to show them and be prepared to be persistent.

Edited August 22, 2017 by rasg
update

[7by7]

14 hours ago, fbf said:

It does however say that a spouse of a UK citizen can travel without a visa if their Biometric Residence Permit (BRP) shows the exact wording "Residence card of a family member of a union citizen". My wife's card has no such wording, although it does state "Spouse/partner leave to enter" under the "Type of permit heading".

 

Is there any chance that such a permit could be accepted without a visa?

The residence card they refer to is one issued under the EEA regulations. Your wife's card was issued under the UK's immigration rules, which is why it does not bear the words "Residence card of a family member of a union citizen."

 

Therefore it is not acceptable for visaless entry to other EEA states.

 

However, as I said to you a few weeks ago here

Quote

...............as the spouse of an EEA national she should be allowed entry without a visa provided she can satisfy immigration at her port of entry that she is your spouse and that she is travelling with or to join you: see "Arriving at the border without an entry visa" at Travel documents for non-EU family members.

 

But you may find that some carriers will refuse to carry her without a visa, and there may be long delays once she gets there while the officials check the rules and her status; so it's advisable to get a visa in advance. 

 

Of course, that is the situation for UK nationals and their non EEA nationals family members at the moment; post Brexit, who knows!

 

[Donutz]

The Schengen sticky covers all of this doesn't it? A regular British resident permit is not enough as has not been issued under EU regulations. And this can also easily be identified by lacking a 'family member of EU/EEA national' on the residence card.

 

@Rasg: insurance or evidence thst you live together isn't required for those who try to get a visa in the spot at the border. Such a thing can be done as a last resort, may involve a headache (arguing with check in staff over boarding and the border officers for issuing the visa on the spot) .

 

Basically IDs, (translated) marriage documents and travel together is enough. Details on what's required  are found in the sticky topic and the EU website: 

 

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/non-eu-family/index_en.htm

[rasg]

I just quoted what was said by somebody who did it successfully. That's all.

 

They show the difference in the two different IDs on the Danish Embassy website. The top of an EU ID is titled Residence Documentation. The UK it's Residence Permit.

 

Your link shows that you need to prove that the person is a family member but it doesn't specify which documents are required.

 

It's also worth, in my opinion, taking too much info, rather than too little and I would buy travel insurance any way because it's a sensible thing to do...

Edited August 24, 2017 by rasg

[sandyf]

It should be borne in mind that at the beginning of this month increased security checking was introduced for non schengen visitors into the area.

[Xaos]

I doubt it. And i know for a fact its very hard to get shengen visa from my home.country PL even for married thais who are skint.

U dont have to buy flight, u pay cheap deposit most agents do that now. U need travel insurance for thai and 6 months bank statements.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[Xaos]

To give u idea i got many polish friends married to thai woman and they were refused visas numerous times.

 

PL is tough on visas tho.

 

 

 

 

[Donutz]

1 hour ago, rasg said:

I just quoted what was said by somebody who did it successfully. That's all.

 

They show the difference in the two different IDs on the Danish Embassy website. The top of an EU ID is titled Residence Documentation. The UK it's Residence Permit.

 

Your link shows that you need to prove that the person is a family member but it doesn't specify which documents are required.

 

It's also worth, in my opinion, taking too much info, rather than too little and I would buy travel insurance any way because it's a sensible thing to do...

I kow you just refered to an example but to  emphasize on what the actual rules are I pointed out the minor issues that were not quite right. Also because 'hear say' isn't the best source.

 

However, I agree that it's better to have 'too much'  papers at hand though that might also signal a message along the lines of 'i don't know what im doing, here is a load of papers and good luck' to the border officer. Ideally those who want/need to apply for a visa at the border (again, as a last resort!) are fully aware of what the legal requirements are and submit just that. If you still run into an issue escalte it to a senior officer and/or provide the 'extra' documents which really aren't needed . You sometimes hear being asked for say a hotel reservation or e return ticket/reservation even though those technically shouldn't be asked for eligable non-EU family members of EU/EEA nationals.

 

And proper Insurance is never a bad thing even if legally it may not be required. :)

 

As for what documentation is required, it's not specified because that depends on

A) the family relation (spouse? durable unmarried partners? civil partnership? a child? ...) and

 b )legal documents are the best evidence but other evidence must also be considered. In the sticky I have quoted EU documentation on this:

 

-------------

 

3.6. Supporting documents

In order to prove that the applicant has the right to be issued with an entry visa under the

Directive, he must establish that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. This is done by:

presenting documents relevant for the purposes of the three questions referred to above, i.e.

proving that:

- There is an EU citizen from whom the visa applicant can derive any rights;

the visa applicant is a family member (e.g. a marriage certificate, birth certificate,

proof of dependency, serious health grounds, durability of partnerships ) and

- his identity (passport);

- and the visa applicant accompanies or joins an EU citizen (e.g. a proof that the EU

citizen already resides in the host Member State or a confirmation that the EU

citizen will travel to the host Member State).

It is an established principle of EU law in the area of free movement that visa applicants have

the right of choice of the documentary evidence by which they wish to prove that they are

covered by the Directive (i.e. of the family link, dependency ). Member States may,

however, ask for specific documents (e.g. a marriage certificate as the means of proving the

existence of marriage), but should not refuse other means of proof.

For further information in relation to the documentation, see Commission Communication

COM (2009) 313 final22.

 

3.7. Burden of proof

The burden of proof applicable in the framework of the visa application under the Directive is

twofold:

Firstly, it is up to the visa applicant to prove that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. He must

be able to provide documentary evidence foreseen above as he must be able to present

evidence to support his claim.

If he fails to provide such evidence, the consulate can conclude that the applicant is not

entitled to the specific treatment under the Directive.

Additional documents may not be required regarding the purpose of travel and means of

subsistence (e.g. proof of accommodation, proof of cost of travelling), which is reflected in

the exemption for family members of EU citizens from filling in the following fields of the

visa application form:

 

 

--------

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Xaos said:

I doubt it. And i know for a fact its very hard to get shengen visa from my home.country PL even for married thais who are skint.

U dont have to buy flight, u pay cheap deposit most agents do that now. U need travel insurance for thai and 6 months bank statements.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
 

The topic start is probably British and if an EU/EEA citizen visits an other EU/EEA member state special rules apply. It's easier for a Briton or a German to get a visa to Poland for a THai spouse (very little documentation required) and it's harder for a Polish person to have a Thai (spouse) come to Poland (and the German will meet the 'stricter' requirements too if a Thai spouse wishes to come to Germany instead of Poland).

 

However even regular applications such as a Polish person inviting a Thai are not 'very hard to get' , most applicants get a Schengen visa. Refusal rates are low:

 

2016 statistics on Schengen type C (short stay up to 90 days) visas:

 

 

 

 

Source: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy#stats

[7by7]

 

1 hour ago, rasg said:

Your link shows that you need to prove that the person is a family member but it doesn't specify which documents are required.

Indeed; what it says is

Quote

However, if they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by other means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot.

They don't specify or suggest which documents to use because not all qualifying family members are spouses.

 

But for a married couple a marriage certificate, with a certified translation if not in an EU language, is the obvious choice. As shown in the section "Sample story Marriage certificate enough to get a visa" in Donutz's link. OK, that was an application for a visa prior to travel; but if acceptable for that, it must also be acceptable for obtaining a visa at the border.

 

Eurostar, Eurotunnel and French immigration probably see this a lot and so are used to it. But what about whichever airline the OP and his wife use to fly to Budapest? What about Hungarian immigration? Will they be as familiar with the rules?

 

At best, not having a visa could lead to lengthy delays while the airline and/or Hungarian immigration check the rules; at worst the OP's wife may be refused carriage by the airline or refused entry by Hungarian immigration. Such a refusal would be against the regulations, but complaining afterwards and getting an apology is little consolation for a ruined trip!

 

If at all possible; get a visa in advance.

 

Edit; Simultaneous posting with Donutz above, so some duplication!

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by 7by7

[rasg]

2 hours ago, Donutz said:

I kow you just refered to an example but to  emphasize on what the actual rules are I pointed out the minor issues that were not quite right. Also because 'hear say' isn't the best source.

Yes I know. It's fine. Interesting that the post in question was on a different board to this and you were involved in the conversation there. It was a while back and there were pages and pages of it and it came up in a Google search when I was trying to find a link I had visited before.

 

 

[Xaos]

The topic start is probably British and if an EU/EEA citizen visits an other EU/EEA member state special rules apply. It's easier for a Briton or a German to get a visa to Poland for a THai spouse (very little documentation required) and it's harder for a Polish person to have a Thai (spouse) come to Poland (and the German will meet the 'stricter' requirements too if a Thai spouse wishes to come to Germany instead of Poland).

 

However even regular applications such as a Polish person inviting a Thai are not 'very hard to get' , most applicants get a Schengen visa. Refusal rates are low:

 

2016 statistics on Schengen type C (short stay up to 90 days) visas:

 

 

 

 

Source: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy#stats

Sir after u said its easier for brit or german to get a visa to Poland I cant be bothered to read it more.

They dont need any visas and vice versa. Its all European Union.

Thais are outside of EU and no special rules apply. Need tourist visa or shengen visa.

 

And trust me few Poles in Thailand I know thier wifes were refused shengen visas in polish consulate just cuz they didnt own anything in thier name.

 

Thier husbands doing business here and got money. Still big fat NO.

 

I know thais who got it too, so bit of a lottery there.

 

Mind somehow hordes of affricans arrives every day no visas lol

 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[Donutz]

38 minutes ago, Xaos said:

Sir after u said its easier for brit or german to get a visa to Poland I cant be bothered to read it more.

They dont need any visas and vice versa. Its all European Union.

Thais are outside of EU and no special rules apply. Need tourist visa or shengen visa.

 

And trust me few Poles in Thailand I know thier wifes were refused shengen visas in polish consulate just cuz they didnt own anything in thier name.

 

Thier husbands doing business here and got money. Still big fat NO.

 

You might wish to read my post again. I was speaking about the Thai national, they are obligated to get a visa. For most of mainland Europe that's the Schengen zone with Schengenvisa, for the UK It's a UK visa. It a Thai national is married to a EU/EEA national special, relaxed, conditions do apply to obtain a short stay visa or residency. This is set out in Directive 2004/38. This directive applies to all EU/EEA nationals with non-European family members who travel to or wish to live in an other EU/EEA country with their Thai (= non EU) family member (spouse etc).

 

Basically an eligible couple such as a Briton with Thai spouse applying for a visa at the Hungarian embassy (the topuc starter) or a Polish person and Thai spouse applying for a visa in Germany would be granted these more relaxed procedure. Such a short stay visa cannot be denied (except for matters of national security) if the EU citizen and the Thai spouse both ID themselves with proper passports, make evident that they are family via marriage and that the couple is planning to stay in a memberstate other than which the EU/EEA citizen is a citizen of.

 

So yes Thai need a visa but under conditions (EU directive 2004/38) this visa is easy to obtain and can almost not be refused. 

 

As for Polish people who wish to bring a Thai person to Poland: the Thai person is the applicant. The Thai person and not the Polish person will have to show that they meet all entry conditions that apply to a regular visa application. The Thai needs to show that the trip is affordable  (enough money themselves or a sponsor that has sufficient funds), that the reason of traveling is genuine (letter of invitation etc) and that the Thai is likely to return. A Thai person can do this by showing they have a job to return to, that they own property, have family to take care of etc. The embassy won't be interested in that the Polish husband invests money in Thailand or has a big house in Poland etc. They don't care for the Polish person except when he is a sponsor for the Thai (in which case they wish to see if he has enough money to sponsor the Thai) . If they are married the embassy may fear that the couple wishes to stay in Poland after arrival on the short stay visa, so it can be a bit more tricky for then than a Thai without polish spouse, but all of them should be fine and obtain a visa if they show sufficient strong ties to Thailand (reasons to return).

 

With a refusal rate of around 1% most Thai applicants at the Polish embassy seem to manage just fine. It's not a walk in the park but with preparation most Thai can get a Polish Schengen visa.

 

Perhaps you can suggest to your Polish friends with Thai spouses to apply for a visa for Germany, Netherlands, UK  (not Schengen but is EU) etc to benefit of the relaxed rules dictated by directive 2004/38?