7yo Boy Electrocuted In Phuket Hotel While Charging Game

[Kimera]

I have read most of the posts and I may be wrong but has the switch on the electic outlet been mentioned, in Thailand there isn't any !! very useful if you want to pull out the plug, scares me every time...

[Rinrada]

Havnt been through all the thread but read in tonights paper that the charger was locally bought in LOS......

Without going on too much to the wheres and why as it is agreed an alsolute nightmare situation however a couple of points have to be considered even if a bit unpalatable...

1. If the game boy was bought in the UK then it would work in Thailand..same PD (voltage)

2. If it was bought in say Japan/US ..it could be 115v which needs a Transformer (not a CHARGER) to cut the PD...ie 230/400 > 115/120V.

3.So not withstanding that ...(sorry about this but only going by reports)...its appears (dont know for certain) that his mum bought him ..locally ...a "charger" which may have been of course have been a ..."Transformer"...why??...Might be wrong..hope so....

Has anybody looked at what on sale in some local Thai/Lao/khmer/Vietnamese/Indian...SE asia country markets.......

Cheap imported Chinese crap.........rejects....complete unadulterated...crap.......

I have worked all around the area and have come up against it everwhere.....absolute...CRAP....

Point I am making is dont jump on the "Hotel is at fault" bandwaggon too soon.....maybe it aint

......and YES I know all about 3rd world wiring installations ....

just for a horrible final comment.... have they sent back the "charger"for inspection.? ...or has it been dumped.......Sad...

[Cool Water Palace]

Havnt been through all the thread but read in tonights paper that the charger was locally bought in LOS......

Without going on too much to the wheres and why as it is agreed an alsolute nightmare situation however a couple of points have to be considered even if a bit unpalatable...

1. If the game boy was bought in the UK then it would work in Thailand..same PD (voltage)

2. If it was bought in say Japan/US ..it could be 115v which needs a Transformer (not a CHARGER) to cut the PD...ie 230/400 > 115/120V.

3.So not withstanding that ...(sorry about this but only going by reports)...its appears (dont know for certain) that his mum bought him ..locally ...a "charger" which may have been of course have been a ..."Transformer"...why??...Might be wrong..hope so....

Has anybody looked at what on sale in some local Thai/Lao/khmer/Vietnamese/Indian...SE asia country markets.......

Cheap imported Chinese crap.........rejects....complete unadulterated...crap.......

I have worked all around the area and have come up against it everwhere.....absolute...CRAP....

Point I am making is dont jump on the "Hotel is at fault" bandwaggon too soon.....maybe it aint

......and YES I know all about 3rd world wiring installations ....

just for a horrible final comment.... have they sent back the "charger"for inspection.? ...or has it been dumped.......Sad...

I bought a new charger about 2-3 years ago for my cell phone from the street market outside Carrefour (the one near bottom of Suk Soi 22). It was ok until I got home (London). I plugged it in and it went BANG, the loudest I've ever experienced when other plugs have gone phut. I may have kept it somewhere, but I'm not sure right now. Perhaps it should be inspected if I can find it. I recently bought another from MBK, and that's been ok to date.

I have a Zimbabwean friend, and there they've become increasingly at the mercy of cheap Chinese imports during the last few years. Locally they call the stuff 'zhing zhongs'. I've read reports that the rubbish is imported via diplomatic bags. That's not to deny that much excellent 'stuff' is made in China.

[Cuban]

As the above posts say, the reason the poor kid died is due to the lack of a good working electrical earth, and probably small fingers touching the live pins on a electrical plug - but this speculation is wild depending on if an adaptor plug was used and what plug was being handled at the time, there can be a few variations here.

Maybe hotels will go through a phase of safety "awareness" for a few months, and few groups of interested Thai businessmen will be photographed in hotel meeting rooms talking about this incident...

I think it was about two years ago there was a Thai hotel fire where some people die due to the efects of breathing in smoke while escaping. No so long after that I stayed in a hotel that provided a large plastic bag with instructions to scoop a bag full of "good" air before leaving the room, and then used that to escape the hotel. To be fair this was probably cheaper than updating the fire extinguishers or training staff. TIT.

If you are responsible for a property or people in Thailand you should invest in one of these...

...and do a little light reading.

[simon43]

You want real earth rod, or fake one?

[\quote]

This is very true. I bought some copper earth rods for my new hotel. After a few weeks they rusted! In fact, they were cheap steel, not copper, (which would have gone green in colour, not rusted).

Even using genuine copper ground rods, it can be difficult to get a good ground. The soil around here is just sand, as deep as you can dig down, - not so good to make a good grounding.

Simon

[cooL_guY_corY]

wiring here is scary, just walk down any street. Especially in Phuket, it just seems like.. if you can touch the power lines, that might be bad.

Any one remember the huge storm/flood in Phuket in mid 2004 ? A 18 year old Canadian guy died, something about some power lines in the water, i just remember reading about it in the Phuket Gazette ( whole paragraph on it..) and how the paper said Thai authorities didn't want to talk about it because those things are bad for tourism. Oh well, i guess anyone who comes here should be aware of there surroundings right ? Sad either way

[Kimera]

Sat in Patong last year when a transformer fell into the street, sparks everywhere and lights out, can you imagine the reaction this would cause in the UK! We have to accept I think where we live in the world.

[gharknes]

electricity voltage is a potential difference between two levels, in the west this is always potential between ground and what ever youi measure against, easy to understand in say a car where you have a very clear + and - i.e. 0 earth and +12 positive, domestic power generation is something quite different, power stations are earthed at source, so everything should be earthed if connected to the ground i.e. earth, but not so, it needs to be planned in a network, unless you have earth points expanding from the source the potential changes the further you are away, at home if we measure voltage between earth and live (uk) you will see 220volts, if you measure between the negative and + you will see same, in thland if you measure between negative and earth you will see a voltage, this is because the supply voltage is floating irrespective of earth, this means that safety is hard to achieve because earth (your feet) is not at the same potential as the negative, which means that metal surfaces thatshould be earthed and at the same potential as negative....are not.....this makes safety very difficult, because there is no true 0v potential

in very simple terms ........... it is extremely dangerous, esspecially if you are using equipment that is designed the operate with an earth connection as a safety feaature.

[tjo o tjim]

Even using genuine copper ground rods, it can be difficult to get a good ground. The soil around here is just sand, as deep as you can dig down, - not so good to make a good grounding.

While this is true, when you are doing new construction, the best ground is going to tie to the reinforcing in your foundation. Ideally you make sure that it is electrically continuous around the whole perimeter, but even a 5-10m section of concrete bearing on the earth is going to do pretty well.

FWIW, this type of ground is called a Ufer, and it is especially appropriate for this type of climate. Quick Google gives the following background.

[robint]

Cuban above quotes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device

quite right, dont recognise the make, but a good quality important in LOS is reuired eg Square D etc

comment from preceding posts - my 2 satangs worth

Sad to say, but Thai wiring is indeed lethal by any standards. Most of you reading this forum will likely be laymen and thats no disgrace BTW

The safety of electrical systems has been debated on both sides of the pond for 150 years and between europe and the usa we have a very good set of codes and installation practice, both are excellent, no question.

I recommend that you visit

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...ectrical+safety

on this site where the reasons and background have been discussed exhaustively mostly by knowledgeable persons of euro descent (what else can i call aussies) and some member are attempting to derive simple installation practice for the amateur (nota bene where amateurs can get it wrong, such as attaching the system earth wire to the steel roof joists - mind blowing literally).

As a bare minimum of domestic safety you must get a safety trip

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-curr...evice(variously called an RCD or GFI )

from a reputable large wholesaler - Homepro seems a good bet. Try to get one made by an overseas supplier rather than the local version, called Safety Cut (but its better than nothing, if it works - test it before leaving the shop but the guts of it only contain a cheapo chinese rcd as typically used in your electrical shower cutouts - if they have one), the above site has suggestions.

If you are arriving as a tourist and expect to use portable electrical gadgets, hair driers, razors, computer games etc especially with children, then bring with you one of those plug in safety trips, readily available in your DIY Malls for around $10. You can then purchase a local adapter for the prevalent 2 pin plug (or get one made up by a local electrical shop (they are good at bodging things)

One must remember that children are particularly vulnerable to electrical shock because they are small and have moister skin than adults. When they get a shock they pass out without a sound and no one knows, the heart may stop or fibrillate (gruesome)

I can pontificate somewhat on this subject because I am a retired industrial practitioner, having said that I nearly got killed the other day and the fault lay in rats - yes RATS - they eat pvc insulation from wiring. I had a battery charger stored in a garage. I went to use it, plugged it in and got a nasty belt because some wiring had been exposed near the plug and i hadnt seen it. The shock was aggravated by my schlepping around in barefeet on a concrete floor. Had that been a child he would have collapsed and if unassisted, died.

So DONT play with electrics in bare feet, wear trainers or equivalent (not flips flops, unreliable, wet and salty)

Familiarity breeds contempt

Read the posts, and do a search on Electrical

ps computers need special treatment as they will normally trip an RCD, thats how bad they are.

pps dont use an electric show unless it has a safety cutout. test the cutout with the test button before you use the shower.

[eljeque]

This "Manager" just popped off this response, "The child had just returned from the pool and was wet" as a way to deny the hotel's responsibility for the terrible accident.

[kurgen]

A bit off topic but sort of related.

3 days ago I decided to scrub the inside of our steel watertank. After a while I relised it would be much easier to lower my 6 yo step daughter into the tank and let her do it.

Just as I was about to do this my gf told me she'd got a little shock off the pump casing, which is next to it.

I thought she was making it up but switched the power off to it whilst we were cleaning. Later I switched it back on and forgot about it.

Yesterday morning I walked past the water tank and my shoulder rubbed against it.

AAAAARGH ! a metal handled broom had fell between my pump and tank making a circuit.It turns out some how the 2 year old pump motor was some how faulty.

The shock held me against the tank for what seemed like ages (probably a second) and then threw me about 3 feet against my garden wall.

I dread to think what would have happened to my step daughter if this had happened when she was standing in a metal tank in 6 inches of water.

Needless to say I spent yesterday installing a new pump.

[lopburi3]

[safety Cut (but its better than nothing, if it works - test it before leaving the shop but the guts of it only contain a cheapo chinese rcd as typically used in your electrical shower cutouts - if they have one), the above site has suggestions

Are you sure of that? Safe-T-Cut was one of the first manufactures of GFI equipment and the unit I bought in 1977 is still working fine - and I really do not believe they were importing Communist Chinese equipment at that time. Perhaps they have changed but they have undoubtedly saved a lot of lives here. At any rate it is an important item in the conditions here but by all means re-wire if you have a home and make sure you have proper grounds - the cost is very low and three conductor wire/outlets are freely available in most locations.

For the water pump be sure to ground that motor casing if not grounded by electric circuit as they can be very dangerous - also make sure the electric switch really kills the hot wire when switched off.

[Patex]

Sorry for the young boy ,

I always give the following welcome-note to friends and relatives arriving at the airport...:

WELCOME TO THE 3. WORLD, SELFRESPONSIBILITY STARTS HERE! In my further explanations I give the advice not to believe in smiles, words, building- constructions, pedestrian facilities or any kind of transportation...

The second part is: Do not touch any plant , animal or electronics before asking me ( And yes, this even includes a light switch! )... until now, no problems at all...

[jimbabe]

The main problem with Thai electrical systems is that grounding rods are usually not installed. These rods are 8' long and 2 are required to be driven ALL the way into the ground next to the building and the neutral/ground bus in the breaker box is conected to them. This alows any stray current that energizes a chassis or housing an easy path to bleed off into the ground. In 3 months I and my wife will be coming over to build our house and you can bet that the entire electrical system for it (including breaker panels and breakers) will be to USA code and in the 20' container we ship and I will be installing it. I am contenualy being shocked when I touch a computer chassis when bearfoot on the granit floor in my sister-in-laws house even though the plugs are three prong.

However the boy in question probably touched the hot prong of the plug when he pulled it (a seven year olds fingers are small enough to fit between the socket face and the plug body while the plug is still half engaged. If that were the case then the ground (if it existed at all) would have been by-passed and the current would have passed through his heart and down his leg into the probably concrete floor. The same would have happened in the US or any other country unless the outlet was an electronic ground fault detection type with built in breaker.

Good friend of mine living in Bangkok heads up a construction company which build high-end properties (dwellings) in Chiang Mai and Phuket.

Told me recently that whenever the suppliers come over to quote for building materials, they ALWAYS ask "You want real earth rod, or fake one?"

I am surprised we don't read many more stories of people being electrocuted.

[gharknes]

A bit off topic but sort of related.

3 days ago I decided to scrub the inside of our steel watertank. After a while I relised it would be much easier to lower my 6 yo step daughter into the tank and let her do it.

Just as I was about to do this my gf told me she'd got a little shock off the pump casing, which is next to it.

I thought she was making it up but switched the power off to it whilst we were cleaning. Later I switched it back on and forgot about it.

Yesterday morning I walked past the water tank and my shoulder rubbed against it.

AAAAARGH ! a metal handled broom had fell between my pump and tank making a circuit.It turns out some how the 2 year old pump motor was some how faulty.

The shock held me against the tank for what seemed like ages (probably a second) and then threw me about 3 feet against my garden wall.

I dread to think what would have happened to my step daughter if this had happened when she was standing in a metal tank in 6 inches of water.

Needless to say I spent yesterday installing a new pump.

this wouyld not have happened if the tank had been eathed, do it now, run a heavey cable and drive a metal spike into the grond or connect the negative feed from the mains to the metal body of the tank, then if you have a dangerous failure like you had everything should be safe.

[robint]

[safety Cut (but its better than nothing, if it works - test it before leaving the shop but the guts of it only contain a cheapo chinese rcd as typically used in your electrical shower cutouts - if they have one), the above site has suggestions

Perhaps they have changed but they have undoubtedly saved a lot of lives here. At any rate it is an important item in the conditions here but by all means re-wire if you have a home and make sure you have proper grounds - the cost is very low and three conductor wire/outlets are freely available in most locations.

Are you sure of that? Safe-T-Cut was one of the first manufactures of GFI equipment and the unit I bought in 1977 is still working fine - and I really do not believe they were importing Communist Chinese equipment at that time. [/color]

For the water pump be sure to ground that motor casing if not grounded by electric circuit as they can be very dangerous - also make sure the electric switch really kills the hot wire when switched off.

Are you sure of that? Safe-T-Cut was one of the first manufactures of GFI equipment and the unit I bought in 1977 is still working fine - and I really do not believe they were importing Communist Chinese equipment at that time. [/color]

Well I daresay it was an orignal foreign import back then. One I saw recenlty had an identical cheap RCD same as used in my electric shower, no country of origin on the safetycut or the rcd - ergo must assume its chinky copy and suspect, cant really afford to take risks on a life saver.

For the water pump be sure to ground that motor casing if not grounded by electric circuit as they can be very dangerous - also make sure the electric switch really kills the hot wire when switched off.

[/color]

water pump motors are notoriously dangerous. The windings get moist and start leaking especially if the pump is outside under some crude shelter. In fact any electrical equipment used outside must be protected by an RCD no argument its your life at stake.

You can be 100% sure that your litle daughter would have died from shock. Buddha was smiling on you that day

Sorry if I sound cynical but I hear this kind of tale all the time. I read one case where a loud mout lady from Arkansas was gossiping about how she got a tingle from her electric shower. I chastised her for being so flippant on this board, not so much for her sake as more to send the wrong message to other browsers. Needless to say she wasnt going to be spoken to like that. I wonder if she has fried herself yet? Recently the mamasan of a hairdresser shop was electricuted by her private shower, no one knew till 4 hours later when suspicion was raised by her staff.

Sadly, we highly qualified electrical westerners are not allowed to practice in the LOS at a domestic level. Even at an industrial level you can only be a manager (not allowed to pick up tools - in theory).

And trying to get a godlike know-it-all thai to listen to you, when you have both a language problem and lack of technical understanding just means he ends up doing it his own way and if it goes wrong you get the blame, which is why I didnt take on a job here 10 years ago, no professional integrity (why did you hire me, so we could blame you flang)

Edited January 8, 2007 by robint

[lopburi3]

Are you sure of that? Safe-T-Cut was one of the first manufactures of GFI equipment and the unit I bought in 1977 is still working fine - and I really do not believe they were importing Communist Chinese equipment at that time.

Well I daresay it was an orignal foreign import back then. One I saw recenlty had an identical cheap RCD same as used in my electric shower, no country of origin on the safetycut or the rcd - ergo must assume its chinky copy and suspect, cant really afford to take risks on a life saver.

And I daresay you are wrong - below is the history of that company:

Move by the plight of people who had sustained great loss because of fire caused by electricity faults, Dr. Chawal Sotetiwanwongse spent 3 years in intense research and development to perfect an automatic circuit breaker so sensitive thai it interrupts the electric current even when there's a minute leak, too small to harm anybody. He named his invention Safe-T-Cut, and in 30 years since it was first manufactured in 1975, the name has become synonymous with the safe use of electricity, not only in households, but in workplaces all over the country.

The first Safe-T-Cut circuit breakers were manufactrued by a few workmen in a small plant in bangkok. But the rapid growth that today sees theproduct on the list of standard safety equipments in all newly built homes dictates its expansion.

The Safe-T-Cut factory with its Thailand Board of Investment (BOI) privileges is now situated in an area of over 100 rais in Chainart province. The ISO9001-standard plant employs over 200 thoroughly trained personnel. The product itself has gone through non-stop technology updating. Together with other safety inventions, Dr. Chawal currently holds 24 patents.

The SAFE-T-CUT range of products include:SAFE-T-CUT Automatic circuit Breaker; SAFE-T-LIGHT Emergency Light; SAFE-T-BALLAST Ballase Electronics; SAFE-T-HOME Burglar Alarm; Consumer Unit & RCBO; SAFE-T-GAS Automatic Gas Value, etc. The prime quality, performance and reliability of this market leading range is widely recognized as one of the best safety electrical products avaliable in the market

[helicoptor]

"He does it all the time at home," she said. "There should be some kind of warning about the different electrical currents you get abroad because this wouldn't have happened in England.

Okay, warning: the electrical current used in Thailand is 220 volts, which is the same as in England. You should NOT be wet in either country if you're going to plug something in. Check the hotel wiring and all, but don't overlook parental responsibility as well.

Why are you trying to make excuses for the awful state of Thai wiring?

Are you a parent? Has any of your children ever used a socket to plug in an appliance?

It's dangerous here. I've lived in different apartments, over many years, and you are always likely to get a shock, at the least. The socket design is poor. The wiring standard is low. The government regulations to implement safe electric systems are either non existent or not enforced.

It's not a difficult thing to do, to safely wire up a house, apartment etc. For the sake of everyone in Thailand this area should be controlled and improved. Things like walking down main streets in the capital city in the rain and having to duck below exposed electrical cables is insane.

Rather (or, as well as) than bring in new laws on drink and cigarettes, it'd be a good idea to bring in proper regulations in this area and to enforce them. - no doubt saving hundreds of lives every year. Not to metion saving energy from badly constructed and badly performing wired networks.

Unfortunately for this boys family even their beloved sons death will not change Thai safety laws (ha, thats a joke) on proper wiring. RIP and condolences for the lad and his family.

[robint]

Lopburi

do you mean that I am wrong that the Safety cut box I saw recently contained the same cheapo RCD switch as was in my electric shower (whose switch had failed causing me to investigate the problem by opening up the box?

My local electrci shop told me it was a copy switch - no good - he said euphemistically

My main point is that ther are RCDs from reputable imports such as Square D. If you want to take a chance on a local product up to you

As for the spurious pseudo babble about it all being thought up by a local, its was developed in europe and the states well before and no doubt this info would have been available in 1975

[mongoose]

I have read most of the posts and I may be wrong but has the switch on the electic outlet been mentioned, in Thailand there isn't any !! very useful if you want to pull out the plug, scares me every time...

I saw this kind of plug outlet with switches in a Clipsal catalog in an electrical supply shop in Chiang Mai. Double plug or single. They were marked as new items. The shop owner said he could order them from Bkk for delivery in 2 days.

[gharknes]

I have read most of the posts and I may be wrong but has the switch on the electic outlet been mentioned, in Thailand there isn't any !! very useful if you want to pull out the plug, scares me every time...

I saw this kind of plug outlet with switches in a Clipsal catalog in an electrical supply shop in Chiang Mai. Double plug or single. They were marked as new items. The shop owner said he could order them from Bkk for delivery in 2 days.

if earthing is not easy in your home you can earth to the water supply in most cases as long as the earth is connected to a metal part of the water supply, i.e a copper pipe

[robint]

No NO no

most water is served via plastic piping

this is the kind of misinformation that gets people killed

and btw pure water is not a very good conductor

Edited January 10, 2007 by robint

[logpoacher]

I am hoping that there are some knowledgable experts out there who can answer a few questions I have arising from this thread:

1/ Every time I buy earthed electrical equipment in Thailand, it comes with a round plug that has two round pins (live and neutral) and a hole for the earth. I have never seen a plug like this in the UK. It suggests that the matching wall socket should have two holes and a protruding earth pin, but I have never seen a socket like this in the UK or here in Thailand where the plugs are sold. The sockets in my condo have three round holes and what I eventually did was to buy some three pin plugs that fit these sockets, cut the supplied plugs off my equipment and wire the new plugs on. Is this OK?

2/ The comments in this thread now have me worried that the earth holes in my sockets may not actually be earthed. Is there a way I can check this (without dying). I have a multimeter and some rubber shoes (and a brother-in-law that no-one really likes).

Thank you.

[lopburi3]

1. I did not and do not believe company history claims the principle was developed here. But it was the first practical home application that I am aware of - the US still does not use for more than bath/pool and when it was freely available here such units were Popular Science special projects in the USA from my memory. Thailand is not a Johnny come lately in this regard.

2. The local plugs (which is new within last few years) is the modified type used by most of Europe (and on export equipment which is often made here now). The side straps are designed to be the ground in anything but French sockets where I gather there is a probe to fit the hole. Adapters are available to provide a 3rd plug to fit outlets here or you can buy the standard European outlet in places such as HomePro.

3. You can check with multi meter. Use AC setting above 200 volts. Check from hot to neutral. Should be about 230 volts. Check from hot to ground. Should also be about 230v if proper ground wire in place.

[Rinrada]

Little bit of info on different Plugs/sockets......

Assume everyone knows the US NEC standard 2 and 3 pin Hubble....so..

Suspect that this is the one that you are talking about......German DIN standard...

..Usual unswitched Brit..

From Down Under....

and wot the Thai SHOULD be.......

[elkangorito]

The main problem with Thai electrical systems is that grounding rods are usually not installed. These rods are 8' long and 2 are required to be driven ALL the way into the ground next to the building and the neutral/ground bus in the breaker box is conected to them. This alows any stray current that energizes a chassis or housing an easy path to bleed off into the ground. In 3 months I and my wife will be coming over to build our house and you can bet that the entire electrical system for it (including breaker panels and breakers) will be to USA code and in the 20' container we ship and I will be installing it. I am contenualy being shocked when I touch a computer chassis when bearfoot on the granit floor in my sister-in-laws house even though the plugs are three prong.

However the boy in question probably touched the hot prong of the plug when he pulled it (a seven year olds fingers are small enough to fit between the socket face and the plug body while the plug is still half engaged. If that were the case then the ground (if it existed at all) would have been by-passed and the current would have passed through his heart and down his leg into the probably concrete floor. The same would have happened in the US or any other country unless the outlet was an electronic ground fault detection type with built in breaker.

The person who wrote this claims to be an electrician. I'm sorry but this above information is incorrect & somewhat dangerous.

There is only one poster on this thread (besides myself) who I consider to know enough about electricity & electrical installations, & he is "lopburi3".

As usual, a lot of people are making crazy half-baked claims about things that are not entirely understood by them. There are 2 places where electrical facts are discussed by properly qualified people. They are;

1. http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

and

2. Domestic Electrical Wiring.

Edited January 12, 2007 by elkangorito