German legal experts say Poland has no right to WW2 reparations - report

[johna]

18 hours ago, transam said:

Think you are twisting what you initially said, you condemn German cities being bombed in the later part of the war but you dismiss that the Germans started the tactic in 1940, and it wasn't only the UK that suffered carpet bombing. Plus the Germans starved to death zillions in Russian cities.........And do not forget the zillions of civilians that were executed for doing nothing wrong in execution camps.......

Yes all of these things happen in war, what is your point, My point about Dresden was very simple, it was packed with refugees, it had no military significance, and the war was in its closing stages, there was no justification in bombing Dresden.

[johna]

21 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

I just cited you an example. His estimate of up to 250,000 dead from the Dresden bombings was absurd. It exceeded even what Goebbels claimed. Goebbels! 

"According to Richard J. Evans, an expert witness for the defence at the 2000 libel trial of Deborah Lipstadt,^[9] Irving based his estimates of the dead at Dresden on the word of one individual, Hans Voigt, who provided no supporting documentation,^[10] used forged documents,^[11] and described one witness named Max Funfack as Dresden's Deputy Chief Medical Officer.^[12] Funfack had made it clear by letter to Irving on 19 January 1965 that he had not been either the Chief or Deputy Chief Medical Officer in Dresden, that he had no knowledge of any documentation about the number of people who were killed in the bombing, and during the war he had only heard rumours, which varied greatly, over the number of people who were killed in the raids".^[12][13]

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Destruction_of_Dresden}

In addition he is a proven liar. Detailed specific evidence was cited to show how Irving consistently mistranslated or omitted inconvenient facts. So who cares what archives he had access to. It's what you do with that access that counts.

 "Not one of [Irving's] books, speeches or articles, not one paragraph, not one sentence in any of them, can be taken on trust as an accurate representation of its historical subject. All of them are completely worthless as history, because Irving cannot be trusted anywhere, in any of them, to give a reliable account of what he is talking or writing about (Evans 1996d, General Conclusion ¶ 6.21).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Destruction_of_Dresden

Wikipedia is not a reputable source, Irving was stitched up by the Holocaust industry because he broke a Taboo, he asked a question about the Holocaust. If you had ever read one of Irving's books you would know he's a great historian.

[ilostmypassword]

7 minutes ago, johna said:

Wikipedia is not a reputable source, Irving was stitched up by the Holocaust industry because he broke a Taboo, he asked a question about the Holocaust. If you had ever read one of Irving's books you would know he's a great historian.

Wikipedia was quoting an historian who provided specific examples of how Irving lied. All you do is repeat that Irving was stitched up but the specific charges you don't address. And it's pretty clear where your sympathies lie when you describes Irving's activities as questioning the Holocaust. For example Irving claimed no more than 25,000 people were killed at Auschwitz. But thank you for confirming what I surmised earlier about your views.

[Andaman Al]

On 9/1/2017 at 4:34 PM, jesimps said:

So in wartime nations don't have the right to fight back? Even against warmongers who started WW1, lost, then came back for another go.

 

The German people idolised AH until he started to lose, the allies had every right to bomb Dresdon.

I am not sure two wrongs justify the fire bombing of 250K women and children. NOBODY has/had the right to do any such thing. Soldiers can beat the crap out of each other all day if they want (and does that justify General Hague destroying a complete generation of young men because he was utterly mental while in command of the British Army?) but NOTHING justifies the wanton murder of women and children. It is Genocide, just different wrapping paper.

 

As for Poland's claims, it is way to late. The current citizens of Germany are no longer guilty for the sins of their fathers (until the next world cup match with England   ) and it begs the question, where do we stop? I think the UK needs some of Norway's wealth for the rape and pillage carried out by the vikings. How about we take on the Vatican for compensation for the Spanish Inquisition?

Edited September 5, 2017 by Andaman Al

[halloween]

7 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

I am not sure two wrongs justify the fire bombing of 250K women and children. NOBODY has/had the right to do any such thing. Soldiers can beat the crap out of each other all day if they want (and does that justify General Hague destroying a complete generation of young men because he was utterly mental while in command of the British Army?) but NOTHING justifies the wanton murder of women and children. It is Genocide, just different wrapping paper.

 

As for Poland's claims, it is way to late. The current citizens of Germany are no longer guilty for the sins of their fathers (until the next world cup match with England   ) and it begs the question, where do we stop? I think the UK needs some of Norway's wealth for the rape and pillage carried out by the vikings. How about we take on the Vatican for compensation for the Spanish Inquisition?

Besides the discredited 250K figure, can you think of any war, anywhere, where they played by your rules?

[GinBoy2]

29 minutes ago, halloween said:

Besides the discredited 250K figure, can you think of any war, anywhere, where they played by your rules?

In point of fact it was Germany who changed the rules of warfare during WW1, basically targeting civilians and commercial shipping.

Up to the beginning of 1914 countries tended to abide by the 19th century 'Prize Rules', whereby anyone in uniform were fair game, but civilians were off limit.

Germany essentially ditched those rules starting off with the shelling of English coastal cities.

This was then extended in 1915 by an executive order by Kaiser Wilhelm authorizing the unconditional sinking of any ship within British waters by the U-Boat fleet.

Of course this is best exemplified by the sinking of the Lusitania.

So we can argue endlessly about individual acts of war during WW2 including Dresden. But the rules of war had by that time been irrevocably changed

Edited September 5, 2017 by GinBoy2

[David Walden]

18 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

In point of fact it was Germany who changed the rules of warfare during WW1, basically targeting civilians and commercial shipping.

Up to the beginning of 1914 countries tended to abide by the 19th century 'Prize Rules', whereby anyone in uniform were fair game, but civilians were off limit.

Germany essentially ditched those rules starting off with the shelling of English coastal cities.

This was then extended in 1915 by an executive order by Kaiser Wilhelm authorizing the unconditional sinking of any ship within British waters by the U-Boat fleet.

Of course this is best exemplified by the sinking of the Lusitania.

So we can argue endlessly about individual acts of war during WW2 including Dresden. But the rules of war had by that time been irrevocably changed

Your writings simply just confirms about how much progress we have made in fighting wars.  And!! what about the mess the Romans created some 2000 years ago surly Italy could pay some compensation now.  I'm gunna tell 'em so.  Just you wait.  

Edited September 5, 2017 by David Walden

[Andaman Al]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

Besides the discredited 250K figure, can you think of any war, anywhere, where they played by your rules?

120k-250k it's all the same really isn't it. Not my rules are they. My rules would be sit on the beach, have a cold beer, talk it through and forget about it.

[GinBoy2]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

First off, I cited specific assertions by Irving about Dresden that were lies. Second, how could anyone in their right mind believe that a person who is a holocaust denier is a great historian? And I've seen this "get a life comment" before on thaivisa directed at various parties. It's always a sign that the person making the suggestion has nothing substantive to offer. And the bizarre thing is how clueless the person is who is making that suggestion. After all, it takes 2 to make a dialogue.  So if I need to get a life, what does that say about you?

I told myself I wasn't going to get into this, but what the Hell.

 

Irving is widely discredited as an historian.

To quote the court in his libel case against Deborah Lipstadt;

 

The English court found that Irving was an active Holocaust denier, antisemite, and racist who "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence". In addition, the court found that Irving's books had distorted the history of Hitler's role in the Holocaust to depict Hitler in a favorable light.

 

So in other words nothing the man says can be taken with any serious grain of truth

 

 

Edited September 5, 2017 by GinBoy2

[transam]

3 hours ago, johna said:

Yes all of these things happen in war, what is your point, My point about Dresden was very simple, it was packed with refugees, it had no military significance, and the war was in its closing stages, there was no justification in bombing Dresden.

So what did the German government of the day design this for and how was it used........?

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, Andaman Al said:

120k-250k it's all the same really isn't it. Not my rules are they. My rules would be sit on the beach, have a cold beer, talk it through and forget about it.

Well the difference between 120k and 250k is 130,000. and the actual number is no higher than 25,000. So the difference between 25,000 and 250,000 is 225,000 dead people. I think that would make a big difference to their families and loved ones had the high number been correct.

[yardrunner]

2 hours ago, David Walden said:

Your writings simply just confirms about how much progress we have made in fighting wars.  And!! what about the mess the Romans created some 2000 years ago surly Italy could pay some compensation now.  I'm gunna tell 'em so.  Just you wait.  

yes they could start by repairing Hadrian's wall, it is in a terrible state

[halloween]

2 hours ago, transam said:

So what did the German government of the day design this for and how was it used........?

 

 

The name alone tells the story Vergeltungswaffe 2, (Retribution Weapon or Vengeance Weapon).

[metisdead]

Off topic trolling posts and replies have been removed, this topic has absolutely nothing to do with Trump.  Please stay on topic.